33 réponses à ce sujet

[NedPepper]

You're never going to please them all.  Look, from a game look, play control, combat, stats, et al., it's fine listening to what the fans want .  The story on the other hand should come from the writers.  I want to go in with fresh eyes and I want to be taken on a journey, suprised, touched, revolted, excited.  The writers know what they're doing. 

I think I like Dragon Age 2 because it was exactly what I wasn't expecting.  I think some people still can't get over that.  We all know it's flaws, but it had great characters, and took the franchise in a very interesting direction.  We met new people, still got to see our old friends (which is important...don't waste valuble characters....), but Gaider and company had a vision of where it was going.  That vision, despite what you feel about the GAME of Dragon Age 2, is a good one.

So, keep me on my toes.  Keep me surprised.  A little fan service is great.  But let's not go overboard.  Don't be afraid to experiment because a lot of people on these forums are still ranting because things didn't go exactly as they envisioned.  If it went exactly as you envisioned, why the play the game?

[Maclimes]

I get the feeling this is a "preaching to the choir" kind of thing.

[Emzamination]

Maclimes wrote...

I get the feeling this is a "preaching to the choir" kind of thing.

Nay, it's the "pot calling the kettle black" kind of thing.

[bleetman]

nedpepper wrote...

but Gaider and company had a vision of where it was going.  That vision, despite what you feel about the GAME of Dragon Age 2, is a good one

Entirely subjective.

[King Cousland]

bleetman wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

but Gaider and company had a vision of where it was going.  That vision, despite what you feel about the GAME of Dragon Age 2, is a good one

Entirely subjective.

Precisely. BioWare could write DA so that the darkspawn are banished forever by unicorn-riding elves shooting rainbow bolts from their eyes. I'd accept that that was their vision and that was DA now, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. I judge based on nothing but my personal view of a product's merits (or lack, thereof), not based on a developer's vision or plan (be it good or bad). 

Modifié par King Cousland, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:17 .

[rjshae]

Yes, but listening to your customers also generates fan buzz, as well as the occasional bit of good advice. I agree that DA2 had its moments; I enjoyed it more than Divinity II, for example. To me the location-specific nature of DA2 was enjoyable, and the day-night cycle was a good innovation. The two rogue characters were particularly appealing. But still, there's a lot of room for improvement.

[Korusus]

nedpepper wrote...

I think I like Dragon Age 2 because it was exactly what I wasn't expecting.  I think some people still can't get over that. 

If you think the writing is where most people had problems with DA2, you'd be very wrong.  DA2's problems are mostly gameplay and world design in nature.  The problem is BioWare doesn't get credit for good story alone anymore.

The writers are BioWare are very skilled and competent (even the controversial ones), I give them credit for making the best of what they were given for DA2.  They deserve better than DA2.

[Ianamus]

Considering Bioware's last two games were met with strong negative feedback from a lot of fans trying to listen to them more this time around is the logical response.

[Faroth]

I had problems with the game and the complete lack of plot twists in a very bland story.

The overall tale they wanted to tell was interesting and I support them doing their own thing with the story, but there is a LOT for them to take from fan feedback.

DA:O was the spiritual sequel to Baldur's Gate series
DA 2 felt like a spiritual connection to Mortal Kombat with Kingdom Hearts' combat style more than DA:O or Baldur's Gate.

The story was okay with a lot of missed opportunities and poorly handled situations imo, but the core of what sort of story they wanted to tell you was acceptable.

My biggest disagreement with you, though, was the "great characters." I thought most of them were bland and flat.

I think the most telling point of DA3 is the fact that it's due late 2013 and they've been working on it for 2 years.  A 3 year development cycle vs barely a year for DA2 should have a huge impact.

Modifié par Faroth, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[Wulfram]

I don't think they should listen to the fans, I think they should listen to me.

edit:  Unless they want to make money.  In which case they should probably ignore me.

Modifié par Wulfram, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:30 .

[Il Divo]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think they should listen to the fans, I think they should listen to me.

edit:  Unless they want to make money.  In which case they should probably ignore me.

Probably the same boat with me as well.

[Reaverwind]

Korusus wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

I think I like Dragon Age 2 because it was exactly what I wasn't expecting.  I think some people still can't get over that. 

If you think the writing is where most people had problems with DA2, you'd be very wrong.  DA2's problems are mostly gameplay and world design in nature.  The problem is BioWare doesn't get credit for good story alone anymore.

The writers are BioWare are very skilled and competent (even the controversial ones), I give them credit for making the best of what they were given for DA2.  They deserve better than DA2.

Actually, I had problems with all of it. 

Combat: poor blend of action and turn-based elements and poor encounter design. It really felt like I was playing a game made 20 years ago.

World: Bland, repetitive corridors get old fast

Cinematics: over-used AND utilised poorly One glaring case: conversation with zombie mom turned what was supposed to be a tragic moment into dark comedy

Story: Just what was the story? I know we were sold a "rise to power" but what we got was "glorified errand boy".

Modifié par Reaverwind, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:43 .

[Vox Draco]

nedpepper wrote...
So, keep me on my toes.  Keep me surprised.  A little fan service is great.  But let's not go overboard.  Don't be afraid to experiment because a lot of people on these forums are still ranting because things didn't go exactly as they envisioned.  If it went exactly as you envisioned, why the play the game?

But by all that is holy: Bioware, do not ever again envision something like the end of a very well known game made by you which I won't mention now...surprises...all nice and sound, but not for the mere sake of being different or innovative...it should all make sense and be somewhat "pleasant"...

So, listen to the fans BEFORE releasing a game might save you the trouble of listening to endless rants after release...as happened with DA2 and that other game of yours...

[Korusus]

Reaverwind wrote...

Korusus wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

I think I like Dragon Age 2 because it was exactly what I wasn't expecting.  I think some people still can't get over that. 

If you think the writing is where most people had problems with DA2, you'd be very wrong.  DA2's problems are mostly gameplay and world design in nature.  The problem is BioWare doesn't get credit for good story alone anymore.

The writers are BioWare are very skilled and competent (even the controversial ones), I give them credit for making the best of what they were given for DA2.  They deserve better than DA2.

Actually, I had problems with all of it. 

I did as well.  Despite its flaws, the story is the strongest link in a chain of weak links.

[David Gaider]

nedpepper wrote...

You're never going to please them all.  Look, from a game look, play control, combat, stats, et al., it's fine listening to what the fans want .  The story on the other hand should come from the writers.  I want to go in with fresh eyes and I want to be taken on a journey, suprised, touched, revolted, excited.  The writers know what they're doing. 

I think I like Dragon Age 2 because it was exactly what I wasn't expecting.  I think some people still can't get over that.  We all know it's flaws, but it had great characters, and took the franchise in a very interesting direction.  We met new people, still got to see our old friends (which is important...don't waste valuble characters....), but Gaider and company had a vision of where it was going.  That vision, despite what you feel about the GAME of Dragon Age 2, is a good one.

So, keep me on my toes.  Keep me surprised.  A little fan service is great.  But let's not go overboard.  Don't be afraid to experiment because a lot of people on these forums are still ranting because things didn't go exactly as they envisioned.  If it went exactly as you envisioned, why the play the game?

Heh. I think this is the first time on these forums someone suggests we shouldn't listen to the fans.

Suffice it to say that we do indeed want to engage the fans in a conversation. "Listening" does not mean we are sitting on the forums, waiting for the fans to tell us what we should make... as if we were writing down a list of story ideas and features, and had no idea of our own regarding what kind of game we wanted. I know some fans seem to think that's what listening is, but those who do probably have as much difficulty with the concept of communication -- meaning that their ability to influence the way we think is the same as their ability to influence the way anyone thinks; the principle is the same. Yelling and being obnoxious has about as much chance of doing that here as it does in real life... if such people know how communication works in real life, of course, I can't rightly say.

Yes, listening too much has its dangers... but so does listening too little. It's entirely possible that what a fan wants is simply not what we're going to do, period the end. It's also possible (even likely) that their suggestions lack the context of resources and business realities that we must contend with, and thus have limited bearing. But it's also possible that they have something interesting to say, and can provide food for thought. If they're satisfied with that qualification for our interaction, then I imagine so are we.

Modifié par David Gaider, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[SafetyShattered]

David Gaider wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

You're never going to please them all.  Look, from a game look, play control, combat, stats, et al., it's fine listening to what the fans want .  The story on the other hand should come from the writers.  I want to go in with fresh eyes and I want to be taken on a journey, suprised, touched, revolted, excited.  The writers know what they're doing. 

I think I like Dragon Age 2 because it was exactly what I wasn't expecting.  I think some people still can't get over that.  We all know it's flaws, but it had great characters, and took the franchise in a very interesting direction.  We met new people, still got to see our old friends (which is important...don't waste valuble characters....), but Gaider and company had a vision of where it was going.  That vision, despite what you feel about the GAME of Dragon Age 2, is a good one.

So, keep me on my toes.  Keep me surprised.  A little fan service is great.  But let's not go overboard.  Don't be afraid to experiment because a lot of people on these forums are still ranting because things didn't go exactly as they envisioned.  If it went exactly as you envisioned, why the play the game?

Heh. I think this is the first time on these forums someone suggests we shouldn't listen to the fans.

Suffice it to say that we do indeed want to engage the fans in a conversation. "Listening" does not mean we are sitting on the forums, waiting for the fans to tell us what we should make... as if we were writing down a list of story ideas and features, and had no idea of our own regarding what kind of game we wanted. I know some fans seem to think that's what listening is, but those who do probably have as much difficulty with the concept of communication -- meaning that their ability to influence the way we think is the same as their ability to influence the way anyone thinks; the principle is the same. Yelling and being obnoxious has about as much chance of doing that here as it does in real life... if such people know how communication works in real life, of course, I can't rightly say.

Yes, listening too much has its dangers... but so does listening too little. It's entirely possible that what a fan wants is simply not what we're going to do, period the end. It's also possible (even likely) that their suggestions lack the context of resources and business realities that we must contend with, and thus have limited bearing. But it's also possible that they have something interesting to say, and can provide food for thought. If they're satisfied with that qualification for our interaction, then I imagine so are we.

So what are some of those things that you'll never do? There's probably some funny stories there about what fans have asked you to put in the next DA game. Feel free to share any of those, seriously. I'm really bored.

[Dubozz]

May i ask you a question, David? Which threads/topics here have been most helpful for you or your team?

[MillKill]

"You can't just ask customers what they want and then
try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want
something new."

-Steve Jobs


"Fans are clingy complaining dip****s who will never ever grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices the happier you will be for it."

-Zero Punctuation


Probably the best advice I've heard on the subject.

[NedPepper]

Korusus wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

I think I like Dragon Age 2 because it was exactly what I wasn't expecting.  I think some people still can't get over that. 

If you think the writing is where most people had problems with DA2, you'd be very wrong.  DA2's problems are mostly gameplay and world design in nature.  The problem is BioWare doesn't get credit for good story alone anymore.

The writers are BioWare are very skilled and competent (even the controversial ones), I give them credit for making the best of what they were given for DA2.  They deserve better than DA2.

I agree.  That's my point.  Let the writer's CREATE.  As for how the game plays and looks like and how long, the little intricacies that people want to see in an RPG?  I'm firmly behind people saying what they want.  I almost wrote a litte EDIT side saying, just because I want Gaider and his talented writers to go wild, doesn't mean it's not fun to sit and speculate about certain plot points.  But what's important is that people don't become disappointed that their speculations didn't come true.  (cougholdgodbabycough)

[NedPepper]

bleetman wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

but Gaider and company had a vision of where it was going.  That vision, despite what you feel about the GAME of Dragon Age 2, is a good one

Entirely subjective.

Of course it is.  It's MY opinion.

[don-mika]

David Gaider wrote...

Heh. I think this is the first time on these forums someone suggests we shouldn't listen to the fans.

i`m thinikn same way
When BioWare made Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter, Jade Empire, KOTOR, Mass Effect, DA:O- you do what you can do best

But with DA2, ME2, ME3- games loss to much of gameplay becouse of " listen to the fans"  
So please, with DA3 do what you can do best 

[Calians]

I support Ned in this case. Let the writers of DA create, I'm looking forward to play DA:3 and it's awesomeness. Keep it up David!

[Obeded the 2nd]

Well no but they should try to make as many happy as possible.

[Deemz]

Calians wrote...

I support Ned in this case. Let the writers of DA create, I'm looking forward to play DA:3 and it's awesomeness. Keep it up David!