13 réponses à ce sujet

[Eternal Phoenix]

The Dragon Age series is called "dark fantasy" by Bioware themselves and yet DA2 didn't really have such elements. The only time DA2 was true to this setting was during the "All That Remains" quest which pretty much was dark and what you would expect to find in the horror genre. Meanwhile Origins had plenty of more dark fantasy aspects such as The Deep Roads, Circle Tower, The Fade, possessed children (and the moral dilemma associated with them) and the haunted orphanage. Asides from that the main enemy of Origins were rather horrific in every possible way and Awakening expanded upon this all by introducing The Children and The Mother who were both grotesque.

Dragon Age 2 never showed the impact the darkspawn had on The Deep Roads (all their growth spurts covering everything) and places infested by demons didn't really show it like The Circle Tower did.

Now with mages out of control, there should be more areas where order has been lost and where demons rule. These enviroments shouldn't just feature eerie sounds but they should look the part too. We should also encounter more people possessed by demons with choices associated with them (do we let them go on their way? Do we kill them? Do we try to exorcise the demon from them?).

Forget "deaths being handled in a mature way" I want to see more horror elements and grotesque nightmarish scenarios and monsters. Dragon Age 3 should be true to the dark fantasy genre.

I'm not asking for the whole game to be completely dark but there needs to be a few more scenarios and quests involving creatures of darkness. Origins had the right amount here (and who could forget Warden's Keep and discovering what went on inside?). More quests like Warden's Keep, All That Remains and Something Rotten should be in Dragon Age 3.

[Vandicus]

Zombies don't equal dark fantasy. The only dark fantasy we get in DA:O is the broodmother event.

Moral dilemmas don't equate to dark fantasy. You correctly equate All That Remains to dark fantasy, but its dark fantasy because it invokes horror due to closeness to the character. Abstract connection/lack of connection to people who have horrible things happen to them does not constitute a horrror element.

All the monsters in DA are killable. They don't have the presence of inevitability necessary to make them horrifying. The theme of inevitability(no matter what the hero does they can't change the horrible thing that's going to happen, like mage war or family deaths) and horror is what makes a story dark fantasy. DA:O does not have that.

[Lokiwithrope]

I want more Fade stuff. They're pretty interesting.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Vandicus wrote...

Zombies don't equal dark fantasy. The only dark fantasy we get in DA:O is the broodmother event.

Moral dilemmas don't equate to dark fantasy. You correctly equate All That Remains to dark fantasy, but its dark fantasy because it invokes horror due to closeness to the character. Abstract connection/lack of connection to people who have horrible things happen to them does not constitute a horrror element.

All the monsters in DA are killable. They don't have the presence of inevitability necessary to make them horrifying. The theme of inevitability(no matter what the hero does they can't change the horrible thing that's going to happen, like mage war or family deaths) and horror is what makes a story dark fantasy. DA:O does not have that.

Don't they? Zombies, vampires, demons and other typical undead and demonic monsterous do equal dark fantasy according to the definition. The All That Remains quests didn't relate to dark fantasy because of the person involved, it related to dark fantasy because of the means that were used: necromancy which itself is a horrific element often used in horror or other dark fantasy titles.

So Connor, Redcliffe and The Circle Tower (and you actually got to know many of the characters within either during the quest or during the mage origin) do not consitute to horror elements?

I think you misunderstand what dark fantasy is anyway. Dark fantasy isn't meant to tell the tale of a creature that cannot be stopped. Dark fantasy is the opposite of a high fantasy and involves creatures that are far from being noble and magnificent beings.

The setting itself can relate to this simply by having a haunting/errie/ominous atmosphere. I mean the environments itself can tell a tale of horror and dread. Dark fantasy isn't just supposed to relate to characters you get to know. I mean what about Ostagar? You spend a considerable amount of time there and when you return the darkspawn have completely corrupted the place and transformed it into a vile haven for themselves. Meanwhile you find the corpse of King Cailan crucified and yet you say Origins didn't have any dark fantasy elements?

The way darkspawn are built up in the deep roads also contributed to the moment when you discovered The Broodmother. As you progress further down into the deep roads you start coming across more and more darkspawn and their growth spurts (or whatever the hell those things are that plague darkspawn infested environments). The same element is used in The Circle Tower where horror is build up as you continue up the Circle Tower and witness how twisted it has become as you get nearer to the source behind all the corruption there.

Dragon Age 2 had none of this. There was no atmosphere being build up in the Deep Road whatsoever nor was there atmosphere built up anywhere else.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[o Ventus]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

I want more Fade stuff. They're pretty interesting.

Not if involve actually playing in the Fade, a la Origins.

[Emzamination]

The genre is dark Fantasy, not horror.Leave well enough alone elton jon.

[Eternal Phoenix]

I wasn't asking for horror. You misread. (Just like Vandicus did because I didn't mention zombies in my OP)

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Vandicus]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Zombies don't equal dark fantasy. The only dark fantasy we get in DA:O is the broodmother event.

Moral dilemmas don't equate to dark fantasy. You correctly equate All That Remains to dark fantasy, but its dark fantasy because it invokes horror due to closeness to the character. Abstract connection/lack of connection to people who have horrible things happen to them does not constitute a horrror element.

All the monsters in DA are killable. They don't have the presence of inevitability necessary to make them horrifying. The theme of inevitability(no matter what the hero does they can't change the horrible thing that's going to happen, like mage war or family deaths) and horror is what makes a story dark fantasy. DA:O does not have that.

Don't they? Zombies, vampires, demons and other typical undead and demonic monsterous do equal dark fantasy according to the definition. The All That Remains quests didn't relate to dark fantasy because of the person involved, it related to dark fantasy because of the means that were used: necromancy which itself is a horrific element often used in horror or other dark fantasy titles.

So Connor, Redcliffe and The Circle Tower (and you actually got to know many of the characters within either during the quest or during the mage origin) do not consitute to horror elements?

I think you misunderstand what dark fantasy is anyway. Dark fantasy isn't meant to tell the tale of a creature that cannot be stopped. Dark fantasy is the opposite of a high fantasy and involves creatures that are far from being noble and magnificent beings.

The setting itself can relate to this simply by having a haunting/errie/ominous atmosphere. I mean the environments itself can tell a tale of horror and dread. Dark fantasy isn't just supposed to relate to characters you get to know. I mean what about Ostagar? You spend a considerable amount of time there and when you return the darkspawn have completely corrupted the place and transformed it into a vile haven for themselves. Meanwhile you find the corpse of King Cailan crucified and yet you say Origins didn't have any dark fantasy elements?

The way darkspawn are built up in the deep roads also contributed to the moment when you discovered The Broodmother. As you progress further down into the deep roads you start coming across more and more darkspawn and their growth spurts (or whatever the hell those things are that plague darkspawn infested environments). The same element is used in The Circle Tower where horror is build up as you continue up the Circle Tower and witness how twisted it has become as you get nearer to the source behind all the corruption there.

Dragon Age 2 had none of this. There was no atmosphere being build up in the Deep Road whatsoever nor was there atmosphere built up anywhere else.

"Dark fantasy[/b] is a subgenre of fantasy which can refer to literary, artistic, and filmic works that combine fantasy with elements of horror. The term can be used broadly to refer to fantastical works that have a dark, gloomy atmosphere or a sense of horror and dread. "

The problem with non-inevitable creatures is that they no longer invoke horror and dread(I've got a good deal of experience with playing in and DMing campaigns that have dark fantasy elements). There was a time when simply adding zombies or some form of undead was scary. I did not consider those things that happened in DA:O, with the exception of the Broodmother story/song, to be horror. 

There is a mentality that adding creatures that once filled people with dread hundreds of years ago constitutes a horror environment. Society has changed. The modern teenager would rather date a vampire than kill one, and pacts with demons are practically common place. Zombies are regularly parodied for their stupidity and slowness. As a result these creatures are no longer sufficient to create an atmosphere of horror. White Wolf publishing's World of Darkness and New World of Darkness do a good job of using traditional elements to build a dark fantasy world, but the way in which they build it is the source of the dark fantasy elements rather than the traditional elements that they use. 


*EDIT

The reason DA:O is not dark fantasy is because the Warden never has to experience loss. As the PC, we know he/she has plot armor except for the final decision. Nothing up till the end of the game can potentially kill the Warden. As a result its necessary for NPCs that the player has a connection to to die, in order to make fear and dread possible. Fear for oneself is impossible as the protagonist in the DA series, which only leaves fear for others. 

Modifié par Vandicus, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Vandicus wrote...

"Dark fantasy[/b] is a subgenre of fantasy which can refer to literary, artistic, and filmic works that combine fantasy with elements of horror. The term can be used broadly to refer to fantastical works that have a dark, gloomy atmosphere or a sense of horror and dread. "

Taken from Wikipedia and yet it still supports what I was talking about. See? Dark fantasy doesn't just relate to zombies who you can't kill. From the same article on Wikipedia we also find two different sub-genres: Fantasy based and horror based. Dragon Age would clearly be the first and not the later.

Vandicus wrote... 
The problem with non-inevitable creatures is that they no longer invoke horror and dread(I've got a good deal of experience with playing in and DMing campaigns that have dark fantasy elements). There was a time when simply adding zombies or some form of undead was scary. I did not consider those things that happened in DA:O, with the exception of the Broodmother story/song, to be horror. 

Neither do I. In fact I don't even remember zombies being in DA:O or DA2.

Vandicus wrote... 
There is a mentality that adding creatures that once filled people with dread hundreds of years ago constitutes a horror environment. Society has changed. The modern teenager would rather date a vampire than kill one, and pacts with demons are practically common place. Zombies are regularly parodied for their stupidity and slowness. As a result these creatures are no longer sufficient to create an atmosphere of horror. White Wolf publishing's World of Darkness and New World of Darkness do a good job of using traditional elements to build a dark fantasy world, but the way in which they build it is the source of the dark fantasy elements rather than the traditional elements that they use. 

Yet I was not referring to creatures but rather the way they are introduced or shown. Origins did a good job of building atmosphere and dread up as you progressed upward in The Circle Tower or as you descended further into The Deep Roads. Dragon Age 2 did nothing and when you finally do get to "the furthest point in the Deep Roads that anyone has ever gone to before" you fight the "demonic" enemy before they are even introduced as the demon posessed rocks that they are.

Vandicus wrote... 
The reason DA:O is not dark fantasy is because the Warden never has to experience loss. As the PC, we know he/she has plot armor except for the final decision. Nothing up till the end of the game can potentially kill the Warden. As a result its necessary for NPCs that the player has a connection to to die, in order to make fear and dread possible. Fear for oneself is impossible as the protagonist in the DA series, which only leaves fear for others. 

Totally another genre you're talking about. I don't want Resident Evil.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[BrookerT]

Dragon Age 2 was so dark, much more than Dragon Age origins if anything, it should take a leaf from that book. I posted my response to s similar question from another thread.

For me its all about the difference between High Fantasy and Low Fantasy.

High fantasy is a world where things are fantastical. It a world where the problems people face have little grounding in reality. World that are High Fantasy are Lord of the Rings, Terry Pratchett's Colour of Magic.

Low Fantasy is a world where the fantastical elements take a back seat to "real world" issues, which are much more liekly to have grounding in reality. Worlds that are low fantasy are A Game of Thrones, Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!.

While there are elemts of Low Fantasy in Dragon Age Origns (Dwarven Caste system and Elvish repression), it is a world primarly concerned with a fantastical threat. The Dark Spawn have little grounding in reality, and as a result, an issue we will never truly fear. While they may be scary, we know that no matter how scary they are, they are an abstaract evil, one we will never have to face.

This is where, IMO, Dragon Age 2 becomes darker. Of course Dragon Age 2 has elemts of high fantasy, like the red lyrium, Merril's eluvian, Justice/Anders, the problems the characters face are real issues. Ethnic oppression, Genocide, Paedohilia (either this or madness), Religious intolerance and Refugees. All these issues are factors which have a very real bearing in reality. These are issues we all truly fear. Maybe not all of them, but these have basis in the real world, and we lose the confort of going to sleep at night saying "no matter how scared I am, it's not real".

Dragon Age Origins, has plenty of low fantasy elements, and this is where the game truly shines. The Broodmoter is an abstarct threat, while scary, it can never trult harm us. But the Ethnic supression of the Elves is a real, (and briliiantly portrayed) threat. While not elves, it has happened before, the ethnic containing, and sunbsiquent genocide. But these elements are hidden behind a fantastical veil. They take a back seat to the problem of the Drakspawn.

In Dragon Age 2 however, there is no veil (well there is but, you know). Every issue is front and centre. The Darkspawn are not important in the story. Even though the darkspawn create a mass exodus, instead of focussing on the darkspawn, the game focuses on the refugees. With Anders/Justice, instead of focusing on the fantastical element of their realtionship, the game focuses on the very real internal argument over right and wrong, "One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". Its these issues which make a gam dark and mature. The knowledge that the issues we tackled, and how they affected us will be carried with us into the real world when we stop playing.

This is my opinion is true dark fantasy.

[o Ventus]

BrookerT wrote...

In Dragon Age 2 however, there is no veil (well there is but, you know). Every issue is front and centre. The Darkspawn are not important in the story. Even though the darkspawn create a mass exodus, instead of focussing on the darkspawn, the game focuses on the refugees. With Anders/Justice, instead of focusing on the fantastical element of their realtionship, the game focuses on the very real internal argument over right and wrong, "One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". Its these issues which make a gam dark and mature. The knowledge that the issues we tackled, and how they affected us will be carried with us into the real world when we stop playing.

This is my opinion is true dark fantasy.

While I disagree that it's dark fantasy (simply because it doesn't fit the definition), I agree that the undertones are certainly dark. In fact, the themes and motivations in DA2 are the prime reason why I prefer DA2 over DAO.

That isn't to say that the whole "impending apocalypse" and "old gods" thing isn't interesting either.

[BrookerT]

o Ventus wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

In Dragon Age 2 however, there is no veil (well there is but, you know). Every issue is front and centre. The Darkspawn are not important in the story. Even though the darkspawn create a mass exodus, instead of focussing on the darkspawn, the game focuses on the refugees. With Anders/Justice, instead of focusing on the fantastical element of their realtionship, the game focuses on the very real internal argument over right and wrong, "One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". Its these issues which make a gam dark and mature. The knowledge that the issues we tackled, and how they affected us will be carried with us into the real world when we stop playing.

This is my opinion is true dark fantasy.

While I disagree that it's dark fantasy (simply because it doesn't fit the definition), I agree that the undertones are certainly dark. In fact, the themes and motivations in DA2 are the prime reason why I prefer DA2 over DAO.

That isn't to say that the whole "impending apocalypse" and "old gods" thing isn't interesting either.

Yeah, in all fairness, it fits my own personal defintiion of dark fantasy, but I agree its not strictly speaking the same;)

In regards to the bolded part, I thinks when the two ideas come together, is when they truly shine.

[Vandicus]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

"Dark fantasy[/b] is a subgenre of fantasy which can refer to literary, artistic, and filmic works that combine fantasy with elements of horror. The term can be used broadly to refer to fantastical works that have a dark, gloomy atmosphere or a sense of horror and dread. "

Taken from Wikipedia and yet it still supports what I was talking about. See? Dark fantasy doesn't just relate to zombies who you can't kill. From the same article on Wikipedia we also find two different sub-genres: Fantasy based and horror based. Dragon Age would clearly be the first and not the later.

Vandicus wrote... 
The problem with non-inevitable creatures is that they no longer invoke horror and dread(I've got a good deal of experience with playing in and DMing campaigns that have dark fantasy elements). There was a time when simply adding zombies or some form of undead was scary. I did not consider those things that happened in DA:O, with the exception of the Broodmother story/song, to be horror. 

Neither do I. In fact I don't even remember zombies being in DA:O or DA2.

Vandicus wrote... 
There is a mentality that adding creatures that once filled people with dread hundreds of years ago constitutes a horror environment. Society has changed. The modern teenager would rather date a vampire than kill one, and pacts with demons are practically common place. Zombies are regularly parodied for their stupidity and slowness. As a result these creatures are no longer sufficient to create an atmosphere of horror. White Wolf publishing's World of Darkness and New World of Darkness do a good job of using traditional elements to build a dark fantasy world, but the way in which they build it is the source of the dark fantasy elements rather than the traditional elements that they use. 

Yet I was not referring to creatures but rather the way they are introduced or shown. Origins did a good job of building atmosphere and dread up as you progressed upward in The Circle Tower or as you descended further into The Deep Roads. Dragon Age 2 did nothing and when you finally do get to "the furthest point in the Deep Roads that anyone has ever gone to before" you fight the "demonic" enemy before they are even introduced as the demon posessed rocks that they are.

Vandicus wrote... 
The reason DA:O is not dark fantasy is because the Warden never has to experience loss. As the PC, we know he/she has plot armor except for the final decision. Nothing up till the end of the game can potentially kill the Warden. As a result its necessary for NPCs that the player has a connection to to die, in order to make fear and dread possible. Fear for oneself is impossible as the protagonist in the DA series, which only leaves fear for others. 

Totally another genre you're talking about. I don't want Resident Evil.

Zombies are an example of the most commonly added creature to create a feeling of horror. In DA we have darkspawn. They're not really any scarier than zombies. I don't feel that the atmosphere is well built up for the journey into the Deep Roads or for the Circle Tower, because the PC slaughters demons and darkspawn left and right.  
The main enemy that we fight in DA:O doesn't have much a feeling of horror or dread in the least, any more than LoTR orcs do. Darkspawn are generic monster race X that we can slaughter without feeling guilt. They also have a zombie plague thing going on but the PC and the party are all immune to that in DA:O(yay plot armor means we don't have to be scared of anything! and our companions have it too!).

Modifié par Vandicus, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

I guess everyone has different definitions of what "dark fantasy" means. Well I'd still like to see more quests involving demons and environments which are dark and have become corrupted or torn apart by war.