77 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

OP: I kinda agree with your original statement, but not with the link you provided further down the page.

I do wonder how many fans are in it just for the romance as opposed to the characters or the story. That's not to say all fans are like that -- that'd be an absurd generalization. Still...

Also, while I find the romances themselves as pretty awesome and realistic enough if you take into account the overarching story as opposed to the single event, I would like more development before the actual romance begins.

As more of a "We know each other well enough. Why don't we get together?" sort of romance that leads to "We'll bang, okay?" instead of "Thanks for helping me with Problem X. Now drop trow."

I'd also like to see non-romanceable characters that are gay or bisexual, and possibly even have importance to the story.

Why is it that there isn't one single gay/bisexual/lesbian character that isn't romanceable, is or isn't a part of the main cast of companions, and has some importance to the story -- maybe even a great deeal? And I mean that they're established that way from their onset, not in the next game.

I think that'd speak more to showcasing equality in gaming alongside the fact that you can romance certain characters of a straight/gay/lesbian/bisexual nature. That, hey, this isn't a big deal and this character who is gay actually has some importance to the world.

Because, you know, that's true for our world.

I mean, I'm a straight guy, but even so I'm wondering why no important people in Thedas are openly gay, or lesbian, or bisexual when we're talking about a series developed by a company praised for its showcasing of different sexualities. What about a Loghain-esque character?

Sure Loghain gives some implications that he might love Maric in that way, but it could also just be brotherly love. Someone who's openly and honestly not straight.

What if Lambert was gay or bisexual? Or Gaspard de Chalons?

David Gaider wrote...

/end diatribe

Well said on that.

[Andraste_Reborn]

But friendship involves actually caring about someone. How many people
on here can truly say they care about their love interest in the games?
Enough to just be their friends? Or does it HAVE to be a romantic
involvement for you to care?

Speaking as someone who likes BioWare romances a lot: no. Really, not at all.

I only repeated one of the romances in DAO because, having tried them all, I found that I got more out of being friends with Morrigan, Zevran and Leliana than I did out of the romances. With Morrigan, especially, I find that the sisterly relationship she developed with my female Wardens was more satisfying than the romance she had with the male one. While I liked Zevran's romance, I liked becoming his friend even more. He's a man who's had a lot of lovers, but becoming a true friend he doesn't have sex with made me feel like our relationship was unique for him. As for Leliana - well, I didn't really like her romance path, but I do like being her friend. Even with Alistair, I'd say being his bro was just as satisfying as romancing him.

In DA2, my feelings about Isabela were similar to my feelings about Zevran - being her platonic friend seemed more meaningful than sleeping with her. Merrill was like Alistair, in that I enjoyed both the romance and the friendship paths. I liked the Anders romance way more than I expected to, so he was another love interest where it was pretty much even. Sebastian's romance is such a tease that it's hard to judge it fairly against the platonic option.

So the only character where I really prefer the romantic relationship over the friendship one is Fenris. And I think that's just because of Gideon Emery and the wall-slamming .

I really don't think that BioWare's romances have lead to their characters becoming less deep. Is Varric a deeper character than Anders? I'd say they're equally well-written.

[Grizzly46]

Fandango9641 wrote...

I think Origins and DA2 did friendship really well, though I do share the concern that the romantic demands of some here will be catered to in a way that could easily see characterisation suffer. I also agree with The Ethereal Writer Redux in that I would love to see an explicitly gay party member in Inquisition.

Well, there are always characters that you do become more friends with than others - an unromanced Garrus, Alistair or Varric for example. All of them provide the PC with some buddy terms - and in the case of Garrus and Alistair, they are excellent choices for a straight male protagonist to just share a beer and hang out with.

I'm not so sure about a explicitly gay person in DA3 however - we had two in ME3 (Traynor and Cortez, one each) but I see two problems with this: First of all it feels forced ('I know you are just here to cater to the gay community'), and secondly it felt odd to watch myself in ME3 around Cortez so I wouldn't set off his gaydar, which in turn led to me treating him tougher than a non-gay male party member.

If we need to have this, I would actually prefer bisexual characters, but first and foremost, I agree with OP in that friendship and cameraderie is much more important for a story to evolve - espcieally if the story will be of a more military nature.

[TEWR]

It doesn't have to be even a party member. Just someone of importance that isn't romanceable. Could be a member of the Inquisition that, while isn't a party member, is important in what you do.

Like maybe one of your best men.

[Foolsfolly]

I'd also like to see non-romanceable characters that are gay or bisexual, and possibly even have importance to the story.

Master Wade and Heron weren't gay?

[cindercatz]

mousestalker wrote...

As for friendship, while romance is lovely, friendship is magic. So if we want Bioware to pony up in giving us the friends we should have, we need to grab the issue by the mane and saddle up. Otherwise, we'll be left out of the whole herd of issues that they are dealing with.

Yeah, but I agree there needs to be more character interaction (and there's already a lot). This is kind of BioWare's main thing.

I don't agree with anything else in the OP, though. BioWare's characters are about 99% great, and I never had a problem with the relationships coming too fast, being that they generally come at the end of the game.. Rather, they just need to keep developing their in game relationships more, of all types, romance and friendship and enemy all, take your pick, and continue to develope their presentation. DA2 was pretty good at it, but too sparse, with not enough towards the end, and ME3 was very good at it, except we don't see it go anywhere.

In most cases, relationships are treated as central peripherals, as in very important but intentionally (it seems) shunted off as side content. That's the thing I think needs to change most, that and treating every relationship as a game system that evolves along certain beats every game. That's another thing ME3 was better about (with the ME1 returning characters, mostly), because the relationships could be pre-existing, but it was still an issue at times. DA:O was pretty good in this area too. It's just more more more, physicality, presentation, unique scenes and dialogue, etc.
The more you differentiate and articulate all the interpersonal details, the more real the different relationships seem.

edit: On a side note, I think I was the first person to suggest miss techie thief scamp Mission Vao and her wookie friend (can't remember the name at the moment) appear in the comic, even being five years earlier as a nine year old kid, because she's just an awesome character. I thought that whole story arc came off very well.

Modifié par cindercatz, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:51 .

[nightscrawl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sure Loghain gives some implications that he might love Maric in that way, but it could also just be brotherly love. Someone who's openly and honestly not straight.

Uh... did you read The Stolen Throne? If you have, I really don't see how you can take what is in that book and still make that statement, so you'll have to elaborate.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Master Wade and Heron weren't gay?

While those two are great, I think EWR is trying to focus more on characters who are significant or have a major role in the story. If you can go the entire game without talking to Wade and Herren, then they're not significant.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:26 .

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'd also like to see non-romanceable characters that are gay or bisexual, and possibly even have importance to the story.

Master Wade and Heron weren't gay?

I wouldn't call them important to the story, which is what I feel is very important despite my use of the word "possibly" indicating that it's a secondary aspect.

And really, you only see a few token gay/lesbian/bisexual NPCs in the games. And then they're kinda made out to be comical, for good or ill -- Wade and Herren are, obviously, good comical.

A couple of NPCs with a few lines that are made out to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual doesn't amount to much in a game series created by a company heralded for its showcasing of equality.

If we had a character that was gay, lesbian, or bisexual but wasn't romanceable and yet is important to the story, I'm sure there'd be no shortage of requests -- read, demands at times -- saying that said character should be romanceable in the next game.

Which wouldn't be a bad thing per se, but I think it'd be done for less altruistic purposes I guess then simple equality in gaming.

This isn't to say all fans would be like that or even that having romanceable bisexual companions is a bad thing. Just that it seems like that's all we see.

That's really what I'm getting at.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[TEWR]

nightscrawl wrote...

Uh... did you read The Stolen Throne? If you have, I really don't see how you can take what is in that book and still make that statement, so you'll have to elaborate.

I only know the barebones plot details, but I have not read the book in full form as I do not own it.
 
And even if it's actual love instead of brotherly love, DAO gives no indication that this is so and really Loghain just comes off as a true friend to Maric.

nightscrawl wrote...

While those two are great, I think EWR is trying to focus more on characters who are significant or have a major role in the story. If you can go the entire game without talking to Wade and Herren, then they're not significant.

Pretty much.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[Wynne]

I don't really agree with the tone of this thread, but I do think that all great romances have a core of deep friendship.

Ask the really old couples that still like each other. They'll tell ya.

You have romance, and you have friendship. The two are far from mutually exclusive. They are two very large pieces of the puzzle that is love.

Modifié par Wynne, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[Wulfram]

Wynne wrote...

You have romance, and you have friendship. The two are far from mutually exclusive. They are two very large pieces of the puzzle that is love.

But watch how you phrase that, because a lot of people will start freaking out if their lover starts calling them a friend

[Icinix]

Wulfram wrote...

Wynne wrote...

You have romance, and you have friendship. The two are far from mutually exclusive. They are two very large pieces of the puzzle that is love.

But watch how you phrase that, because a lot of people will start freaking out if their lover starts calling them a friend

Then those people would be incredibly insecure.

..or their lover has just friend zoned them.....which when you're at that stage would be really awkward.

[TEWR]

I'd say getting to know your companions well enough is a pre-requisite for initiating true romantic feelings. So friendship in the sense of "We've traveled together and know each other" is sort of important.

In essence, it should appear to be less and less like you're in it for the sex and the friendship comes after the act.

Unless you're playing a character that really is just in it for the sex.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Fast Jimmy]

...what if my character IS in it for the sex?

I mean... just saying. If we're accomodating different roleplaying styles and personalities, being able to play a manipulative ****** would be something that falls within that scope.

[Wulfram]

Icinix wrote...

Then those people would be incredibly insecure.

..or their lover has just friend zoned them.....which when you're at that stage would be really awkward.

I'm mostly thinking of Liara in ME3

[Icinix]

Wulfram wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Then those people would be incredibly insecure.

..or their lover has just friend zoned them.....which when you're at that stage would be really awkward.

I'm mostly thinking of Liara in ME3

Oh how she seems to be the opposite of what she actually is? A lover when shes not and a friend when she is?

Yeah - well that was odd.

[Straw Nihilist]

Yeeeah, friendship is nice and all but come on... Sex is sex


Sex wins

[Maria Caliban]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I mean, I'm a straight guy, but even so I'm wondering why no important people in Thedas are openly gay, or lesbian, or bisexual when we're talking about a series developed by a company praised for its showcasing of different sexualities. What about a Loghain-esque character?

Harren and Wade? Bronka and Hespith?

We don't know the sexuality of the majority of NPCs. Meridith, Orsino, the head Chantry lady, and the Arishok were never defined. The Viscount can be assumed to like women because he has a son, though he could be gay or bisexual.

Dragon Age: Origins had a few important assumed straight people, Anora and Prince Blondie, and some possibly straight people in the form of Loghain and Behlen. Harrowmont isn't given a sexuality, head circle guy isn't given a sexuality. I don't recall if the elven clan leader had a wife or children who were murdered by the werewolves.

In general, important NPCs don't have defined sexualities. We only know the straight ones because marriage/children are important to nobility.

[BouncyFrag]

I couldn't agree more. Though these 'farewell' type scenes are not uncommon in Bioware games, this one is my favorite and embodies the spirit of your post. Shale's response is incredible.
*DA:Origins spoilers*
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RdvG5lBMig

[Maria Caliban]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

How many people on here can truly say they care about their love interest in the games?

I can easily say that. If you do to the character board, I'm going to guess most people there will say that they cared about their love interest.

[Maclimes]

I can say that my absolute favorite relationships in all three games (DAO, DAA, and DA2) were "bromances".

My warden and Alistair were best buddies, and I really felt like they were friends. Then Anders in DAA, and Varric in DA2. All of them felt like more interesting, valid relationships than any of the romances.

Of course, that means that Bioware is already doing what I like. So, you know, keep on keeping on. Well done.

[TEWR]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Harren and Wade? Bronka and Hespith?

See above for Herren and Wade. Branka and Hespith are actually what I'm talking about in regards to wanting to see more of.

People who are important to the story and have a sexuality that isn't just straight. And if they're not in the main cast of companions/are in the main cast of companions but aren't romanceable, that's great as well!

We don't know the sexuality of the majority of NPCs. Meridith, Orsino, the head Chantry lady, and the Arishok were never defined. The Viscount can be assumed to like women because he has a son, though he could be gay or bisexual.

That's just it. We don't know. I'm talking about a clear cut major character whose sexuality is known. Doesn't have to be in such a way that it's blatantly done, but in such a way that we can deduce it and go "Yup."

Also, the Arishok is more then likely straight, given how he's a part of the Qun and the Qun is all about pedigree breeding. If he wasn't straight, I'd doubt he'd be in it still.

Dragon Age: Origins had a few important assumed straight people, Anora and Prince Blondie, and some possibly straight people in the form of Loghain and Behlen. Harrowmont isn't given a sexuality, head circle guy isn't given a sexuality. I don't recall if the elven clan leader had a wife or children who were murdered by the werewolves.

Zathrian had a wife and children, yes. His son was murdered by bandits while his daughter was raped, became pregnant, and driven to suicide because of it. He then placed a curse on the bandits which created the Werewolves by way of Witherfang.

His wife, I assume, had been dead for some time.

In general, important NPCs don't have defined sexualities. We only know the straight ones because marriage/children are important to nobility.

Of course. But why shouldn't important NPCs have defined sexualities? What's so bad about that? What's so bad about a companion that's gay, lesbian, or bi and isn't romanceable?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 septembre 2012 - 11:01 .