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#51
In Exile

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Armaas, the man who was given protection from the Taint by the Darkspawn, would beg to differ. And considering the Warden can't say "I sense the Taint in you" as all Wardens are capable of doing, I'd say he did get protection from the Taint.


That doesn't change anything. Are we going to give talismans to trees and pigs, too? And the sky? Have you read what the blight does to the land in general?

But let's say we actually do all of this. What if the darkspawn decide that breeding through rape sounds better than putting up with humans or elves? By their very existence they are still toxic, they might just choose not to poison.

Which isn't actually necessary, as David Gaider has said in the past that the Taint sustains the Darkspawn. Supported by, as I said, Corypheus, the Architect, and the Ancient Darkspawn.

And, apparently, Larius says the same thing.

So creating broodmothers isn't a necessity unless they actually want more Darkspawn brothers in their sentience. They don't need to do it to survive.


I already said: darkspawn die. Unless they're happy with a slow slide into extinction, they're going to need to replace numbers that die through argument, falling down while not paying attention, etc. etc. etc.

If a tribe of awakened darkspawn decide they'd like 4 more, that means a woman has to be violated, raped, and mutated. There's no way around this.

Only if they so choose, as per the lore the Darkspawn are not prone to death by aging.


They're prone to death by falling down a flight of stairs as much as we are. They're prone to aggression.

Look at our own damn society: death by natural causes (i.e., disease/aging) is not our only cause of death. The darkspawn will go extinct as a mathematical certainty if they don't reproduce.

Only if they choose to fight humanity. Personally, I'd rather give someone the chance at compromise and negotiation rather then spend an eternity fighting a mindless monster.


And I'd rather avoid an eternal blight that we have absolutely no hope of winning against. Which is exactly what we might end up with if we have to trust the magnamity of the Architect or Corypheus to be allowed to continue existing.

And considering we have no idea what will happen when all of the Old Gods are slain, it could be argued that one possibility is that all of the Darkspawn will become sentient. And as a result, go mad from having no Song of the Old Gods playing in their heads and from the confusion of what the hell is happening.


Or maybe they all just explode and the Maker returns and gives us candy.

Whereas with the Architect's plan, he can slowly get them to embrace their sentience and understand morality, especially with his talks with the Wardens of what should and shouldn't be done -- as Avernus' notes in DAII seem to indicate that they are corresponding.


The Architect's plan is to genocide the lot of us, either by making us into GWs (and later darkspawn) or ghouls.

#52
TEWR

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The Hierophant wrote...

This is what imagine a fex to look like...


Posted Image

Slay it! Slay it now!

*would be better if I could substitute the Mage for Jar-Jar.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 septembre 2012 - 10:20 .


#53
In Exile

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Vandicus wrote...
You were presented with a viable solution. There is no evidence to suggest that such a device is impossible, so it is as simple as having the writers add it to the story(much like they add anything to the story). 


Okay. Well, then I'm waiting for the writers to create a cure for the blight that turns all darkspawn back to normal. Until then, let's get on with the killing.

Identifying a subsect of a group of people and generalizing their decisions to the whole is not a rational argument against the whole.

By that logic, Anders blew up the Chantry and sought to provoke war between the Chantry and mages. Anders is a mage. Therefore all mages seek to start a war with the Chantry.

That is not a sound form of reasoning. Darkspawn, after being awakened can make their own choices. They are no more dangerous than any member of any other race.


You're wrong. The darkspawn sure as hell are more dangerous than any other race. Again they breed through rape. They poison the land. These are things that maybe if we ask nicely they won't do.

Grey Wardens aren't sterile. OGB is had with a Grey Warden. Also it is uncertain whether the Architect continues to pursue that particular plan for peace after the events in the novel.


Great. So I just have to trust that the insame monstrosity still doesn't want to kill every single non-darkspawn in the world. Great.

And the OBG is a mystical event that requires blood magic (and who knows what else) and only (as Morrigain hints at) works with a newly made GW.

There is no evidence to suggest that Awakened Darkspawn are interested in producing progeny. There is only evidence that mindless darkspawn seek to produce progeny.


Math is all the evidence we need. If a darkspawn gets drunk and falls off a cliff at a rate of more than 0 ever, then the species will eventually be extinct.

#54
The Hierophant

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

This is what imagine a fex to look like...


Posted Image

Slay it! Slay it now!

*would be better if I could substitute the Mage for Jar-Jar.

Lulz

#55
In Exile

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It was based, however, on actual in-game dialogue and the lack of the Warden being able to refute the idea of Armaas being protected from the Taint]

So it had a good foundation.


Look - I'm not challenging you on this point. I don't buy that (i) this is feasible long-term (see my previous post); and (ii) it doesn't change that the darkspawn are toxic.

That was his plan in the Calling. His plan has changed substantially in the ensuing years. His original plan was targeted on the people of Thedas. His new plan is targeted on his own people.


Oh, I just have to trust the insane abomination. Well, let me just get right on that.

The Messenger would beg to differ that all Darkspawn are going to be omnicidal maniacs.

I'd even go so far as to say the Withered would beg to differ.


And the people of Amaranthine and Vigil's keep care so much that some awakened darkspawn are nice. 

Not to mention that the bloody Withered raised the keep and murdered almost everyone inside! Just look at the DA wiki description:

When the Warden reaches the top of Vigil's Keep, the Withered kicks a
Keep soldier off the edge to a grisly death. It then proceeds to try and
break Seneschal Varel when the Warden-Commander arrives.

... toward the end of the conversation it reveals its true motive: to capture the Warden and destroy Vigil's Keep.


The wiki even has a reply to your (inevitable) point about diplomacy:

:It suggests that The Withered's violence was an act of self-defense, as
humans have the tendency to attack darkspawn on sight, and that the
Wardens of Vigil's Keep attacked him on sight. This doesn't explain why
The Withered travelled with a small army of darkspawn to Vigil's Keep or
why the survivor tells The Warden that a sneak attack was launched
against the Wardens. The Withered is killed when it confronts the
Warden-Commander.


#56
TEWR

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In Exile wrote...

That doesn't change anything. Are we going to give talismans to trees and pigs, too?


Dalish healing magic amplified by lyrium or blood can cleanse inanimate objects of the Taint.

And yes, give them to pigs. Unless the Taint makes bacon taste even better.

You're assuming that coexisting peacefully means living next door to the Darkspawn with them as your neighbors. It doesn't. It can, but that's the harder path.

 And the sky?


They don't taint the sky. 

Have you read what the blight does to the land in general?


See above, where I said they don't have to live next door to Thedosians to coexist with them. Just devote off a large section of Deep Roads that is already tainted to them, and establish a clear boundary. The Taint only spreads with the advance of Darkspawn.

I already said: darkspawn die.


If killed by a blade or other weapon that causes grievous harm to the body. I said they were immortal, but not invulnerable. They can live forever in the aging sense of the notion of immortality.

They won't die by age. They can die if they're stabbed, crushed, maimed, burned, or suffer any other sort of harm to the body.

Unless they're happy with a slow slide into extinction, they're going to need to replace numbers that die through argument, falling down while not paying attention, etc. etc. etc.

If a tribe of awakened darkspawn decide they'd like 4 more, that means a woman has to be violated, raped, and mutated. There's no way around this.


Considering there are many, many Darkspawn, it'd take a long time for them to die out.

And also, all the more reason to have a new race of Darkspawn that are female in physiology and voice! They get married to one another and have happy little Darkspawn babies.




They're prone to death by falling down a flight of stairs as much as we are. They're prone to aggression.

Look at our own damn society: death by natural causes (i.e., disease/aging) is not our only cause of death. The darkspawn will go extinct as a mathematical certainty if they don't reproduce.


Given how the average constitution of a Hurlock is superior to that of a human, they won't die so easily. In fact, it's been made canon in the lore that the average Hurlock is easily a match for a dozen soldiers.

So it seems they can suffer a lot of damage and still live. Though they are obviously not immune to death from injuries.



And I'd rather avoid an eternal blight that we have absolutely no hope of winning against. Which is exactly what we might end up with if we have to trust the magnamity of the Architect or Corypheus to be allowed to continue existing.


Corypheus has no idea what the hell is going on in today's society. He is literally under the assumption that he's still in the Imperium of Old and that the Old Gods' Temples are still around.

Besides, he's also still operating off of the mindset of the Magisters: everyone's a slave to me! He's obviously a threat, so long as he continues to believe such things.

The Architect, however, isn't.


Or maybe they all just explode and the Maker returns and gives us candy.


No, cookies.


The Architect's plan is to genocide the lot of us, either by making us into GWs (and later darkspawn) or ghouls.


Grey Wardens don't turn into Darkspawn. They turn into Ghouls.

And that was his plan. As I said on the previous page, his plan has shifted focus. Instead of targeting the people of Thedas and wanting to Taint them all, he's focused on his own people and making them sentient enough to live safely with Thedas -- though not as next door neighbors.

#57
Satyricon331

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
David Gaider said that they have immortality -- but not invulnerability -- due to the Taint. 


Would you share the link?  The closest I could find was this.

#58
Knight of Dane

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And making them sentient worked really well for Uthemiel and the Mother.

#59
LinksOcarina

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

alikilar wrote...

the Messenger actually helped u defend the keep in Awakening and in the end he walks off somewhere i hope he becomes a companion ;) or atleast i think.

He becomes a cloaked vigilante who helps travelers. Or something like that.


Seem's like a fit to me. An optional companion if you have Awakening saved and have that Darkspawn alive in the end.

Make it happen!

#60
VanDraegon

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Horrible idea.

#61
LinksOcarina

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

What is a Fex?


That is the question isn't it? David Gaider once said the jungles of Seheron are home to a race of people called the Fex, but never has any real information aside from that been given.

So I'm curious as to whether or not they still exist in the lore, and if so just what is a Fex?

For all we know they're a race of sentient cucumbers.

......

Coming soon: the next game in the Dragon Age franchise. Prepare to fight off hordes of evil creatures native to the lands of the Qunari. This new installment will be beyond your wildest imaginations, and nothing will ever compare to it.

Prepare for....

*in a deep, rough, and gravel-like voice*

Dragon Age: Veggietales!

(That's probably the twelfth time I've made that joke.)


I am betting on Lizardmen or Cat people, like in Skyrim only less annoying.

#62
Vandicus

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Knight of Dane wrote...

And making them sentient worked really well for Uthemiel and the Mother.



Urthemiel is an old god, not a darkspawn. If anything he was sentient previous to being Archdemonized.

#63
TEWR

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In Exile wrote...

Look - I'm not challenging you on this point. I don't buy that (i) this is feasible long-term (see my previous post); and (ii) it doesn't change that the darkspawn are toxic.


Given how blood magic can affect the progression of the Taint in living beings and amplify Dalish healing magic to cleanse inanimate objects of the Taint, it could reasonably be assumed that -- through careful experimentation -- one could render the Taint in Darkspawn completely nullified.

In that, they no longer become toxic.

Which would be something I'd expect Avernus to do alongside the Architect. That said, there has never been a case of anatomical study of a Darkspawn or even applications of such types of magic on the Darkspawn to see if they're tainted.

And yet... Fiona's free of the Taint in her system.


Oh, I just have to trust the insane abomination. Well, let me just get right on that.


He's hardly insane. Or an Abomination.

He has a rudimentary understanding of human nature and morality, but that can be addressed in talks with him.

The wiki even has a reply to your (inevitable) point about diplomacy:

:It suggests that The Withered's violence was an act of self-defense, as
humans have the tendency to attack darkspawn on sight, and that the
Wardens of Vigil's Keep attacked him on sight. This doesn't explain why
The Withered travelled with a small army of darkspawn to Vigil's Keep or
why the survivor tells The Warden that a sneak attack was launched
against the Wardens. The Withered is killed when it confronts the
Warden-Commander.


Common sense eludes whoever wrote that, at least on the part of why he'd bring an army with him. Would a lone Darkspawn be given the time of day -- especially if he was a new type of Darkspawn, i.e sentient -- by the Wardens? Or would he be slain on sight, especially if he traversed through the open countryside and was demonstrating something new?

The latter is likely, and it would take the orders of someone who's had several dealings with Awakened Darkspawn to be willing to parlay with them.

So his arriving with an army with him was a measure of self-defense, should the expected outcome of a Darkspawn going to the Wardens for a peace talk.

As for the survivor's accounts, I'd have to hear both Rowland's and Keenan's actual words to be able to address that, as I really don't want to boot up Origins again just to hear what they say. All I can say is that the Withered himself says "We are wishing no more death then is necessary", indicating that yes... he was acting in self-defense.

If a youtube video exists of Keenan's/Rowland's words on the matter, I may change my stance from "Self-Defense to what the Wardens did" to "A pre-emptive strike of self-defense based on the history that Darkspawn are slain on sight".

#64
Dragon_Effect 15511

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I'd love a Darkspawn companion. I'm sure Bioware could come up with some way to not spread the taint. Romance is a bit far though.

#65
TEWR

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Satyricon331 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
David Gaider said that they have immortality -- but not invulnerability -- due to the Taint. 


Would you share the link?  The closest I could find was this.


It's a combination of that and in-game evidence provided by Origins and DAII. We see an Ancient Darkspawn and the Architect is said to have been born as he was and has been such for a long time. Corypheus has been alive and well for a millenia or two. Larius even states that though he died, he isn't dead -- that the Taint is keeping him alive.

#66
wsandista

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Damn, TEWR you're making excellent points today.

#67
Knight of Dane

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No, he's speculating today.

#68
Vandicus

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There's another example of a non-sterile Grey Warden couple. Alistair and Warden female human noble. A royal couple unable to breed would be a serious difficultly and prevent either of them from taking the position.

#69
In Exile

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Vandicus wrote...

There's another example of a non-sterile Grey Warden couple. Alistair and Warden female human noble. A royal couple unable to breed would be a serious difficultly and prevent either of them from taking the position.


They are sterile. David Gaidner explicitly confirmed this. Alistair is sterile, and so is Anora (impliedly).

#70
TEWR

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Dragon_Effect 15511 wrote...

Romance is a bit far though.


Prude. Posted Image

#71
Vandicus

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In Exile wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

There's another example of a non-sterile Grey Warden couple. Alistair and Warden female human noble. A royal couple unable to breed would be a serious difficultly and prevent either of them from taking the position.


They are sterile. David Gaidner explicitly confirmed this. Alistair is sterile, and so is Anora (impliedly).


That seems rather strange, in light of Loghain's comment about expecting grandchildren. Do you have the source'd comment? Well those Fereldans are going to have one rough time of it. Civil War, then blight, then probably another civil war for control of the throne.

#72
TEWR

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Knight of Dane wrote...

No, he's speculating today.


wsandista wrote...

Damn, TEWR. You're making excellent points today.


Bit of both actually. I am, however, clear on which parts I'm speculating on and which parts have actual in-game facts -- or Word of God -- to support what I'm saying, KoD.

#73
Ravenmyste

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no simply no,

#74
Knight of Dane

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

No, he's speculating today.


wsandista wrote...

Damn, TEWR. You're making excellent points today.


Bit of both actually. I am, however, clear on which parts I'm speculating on and which parts have actual in-game facts -- or Word of God -- to support what I'm saying, KoD.

You've always been good at providing evidence to your speculation though.

#75
TEWR

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In Exile wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

There's another example of a non-sterile Grey Warden couple. Alistair and Warden female human noble. A royal couple unable to breed would be a serious difficultly and prevent either of them from taking the position.


They are sterile. David Gaidner explicitly confirmed this. Alistair is sterile, and so is Anora (impliedly).


And yet, Cailan was a grand womanizer. So either every woman he's banged is sterile -- which would really be stretching things -- or he's sterile. Or there's in fact a bastard child of his out there.

Based on the fact that he's a womanizer and we've heard nothing about him having any kids, I'm led to believe he's sterile and that Anora's fine.

And Vandicus, David Gaider did confirm that two Wardens cannot naturally create a child. This isn't to say they couldn't use some means of magic to change things up -- as that wouldn't be the natural method of procreation -- which is something Gaider intimated as being possible.

Though it should be said this was in response to a particular poster's wanted idea of a fanfic being dashed before Gaider said "Well, your idea doesn't break the lore, so go for it."