177 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarquindi]

I would be happy with just a cameo. I really liked Loghain and he was awesome in The Stolen Throne.

[Silfren]

-TC1989- wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
 So assassination or taking him as a hostage are what are the most likely outcomes of him being sent to Orlais, given what we've heard Orlais is planning on doing.

I'd love Loghain to show up somewhere. He's one of the only characters I want to make an appearance in DA:I. I think in my play through he was heading to Orlais on Warden business. Not that that would stop them from doing anything to him, but he was being sent there.

I'm not a Loghain fan (like the character, dislike the person), but I think it's a shame his fate was left up to the player so that he could be alive or dead depending on the playthrough...sending Ferelden's most famous contemporary general, the one who ousted Orlais, into the heart of Orlesian territory, would definitely be a plot worth experiencing.  Especially were it done as a gesture from the Ferelden monarchy rather than the Wardens: I could definitely see Anora making a rather bold political statement by sending the Hero of River Dane to Orlais for some reason.

[-TC1989-]

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
 So assassination or taking him as a hostage are what are the most likely outcomes of him being sent to Orlais, given what we've heard Orlais is planning on doing.

I'd love Loghain to show up somewhere. He's one of the only characters I want to make an appearance in DA:I. I think in my play through he was heading to Orlais on Warden business. Not that that would stop them from doing anything to him, but he was being sent there.

I'm not a Loghain fan (like the character, dislike the person), but I think it's a shame his fate was left up to the player so that he could be alive or dead depending on the playthrough...sending Ferelden's most famous contemporary general, the one who ousted Orlais, into the heart of Orlesian territory, would definitely be a plot worth experiencing.  Especially were it done as a gesture from the Ferelden monarchy rather than the Wardens: I could definitely see Anora making a rather bold political statement by sending the Hero of River Dane to Orlais for some reason.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like something Anora would do, anything to either rub it in their face, or just to simply attract attention. Of course I'm sure from the Wardens perspective, they simply see it as sending one of their own on business, and it's just a coincidence that they both have bad history. I don't think it's the wisest move; I can't even imagine how many Orlesians want him dead after that war.

I also thought the whole justice system in the Landsmeet scene was a little stale, and done a little too quickly. I didn't like how after all that build up, and it ends rather abruptly. I almost felt obligated to keep him alive, because it just didn't feel right. Reason being too, is that you just don't throw away a mind like Loghain's when a war is literally at your doorstep, it's stupid. The fact that Alistair didn't care, and was willing to leave the country to it's death, really showed his character. Ever since then I haven't liked nor respected Alistair. What's more sickening is in DA2, he's sitting around drunk, STILL only feeling sorry for Duncan. Ridiculous...

[Silfren]

-TC1989- wrote...

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
 So assassination or taking him as a hostage are what are the most likely outcomes of him being sent to Orlais, given what we've heard Orlais is planning on doing.

I'd love Loghain to show up somewhere. He's one of the only characters I want to make an appearance in DA:I. I think in my play through he was heading to Orlais on Warden business. Not that that would stop them from doing anything to him, but he was being sent there.

I'm not a Loghain fan (like the character, dislike the person), but I think it's a shame his fate was left up to the player so that he could be alive or dead depending on the playthrough...sending Ferelden's most famous contemporary general, the one who ousted Orlais, into the heart of Orlesian territory, would definitely be a plot worth experiencing.  Especially were it done as a gesture from the Ferelden monarchy rather than the Wardens: I could definitely see Anora making a rather bold political statement by sending the Hero of River Dane to Orlais for some reason.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like something Anora would do, anything to either rub it in their face, or just to simply attract attention. Of course I'm sure from the Wardens perspective, they simply see it as sending one of their own on business, and it's just a coincidence that they both have bad history. I don't think it's the wisest move; I can't even imagine how many Orlesians want him dead after that war.

I also thought the whole justice system in the Landsmeet scene was a little stale, and done a little too quickly. I didn't like how after all that build up, and it ends rather abruptly. I almost felt obligated to keep him alive, because it just didn't feel right. Reason being too, is that you just don't throw away a mind like Loghain's when a war is literally at your doorstep, it's stupid. The fact that Alistair didn't care, and was willing to leave the country to it's death, really showed his character. Ever since then I haven't liked nor respected Alistair. What's more sickening is in DA2, he's sitting around drunk, STILL only feeling sorry for Duncan. Ridiculous...

I can agree that at the Landsmeet, things seem pretty rushed and get tied up much too neatly too quickly, but that's, I think, a limitation of the medium; it's as difficult to wrap things up "realistically" in a video game as it is a movie.  Books are far better at that than either. 

But from the standpoint of the characters, I can appreciate that Alistair's portrayal is completely realistic, both to his character, and to how someone in his position could be expected to react.  Keeping Loghain alive to join the Wardens is a pragmatic solution, one that definitely makes sense logistically due to Loghain's keen abilities as a general, and the fact that there aren't many Wardens to go around.  But from the in-universe standpoint--and I know that TEWR, and probably Lob, will disagree with me here--Loghain has spent the past year prior to the Landsmeet sanctioning the actions of Arl Howe, up to and including sending assassins after the two remaining Wardens in the area, and letting a civil war broil while he nurses his paranoia.  He might've been a great general once, but his actions almost guaranteed the destruction of Ferelden--it was by Flemeth's own machinations that this didn't happen.

Alistair sitting around drunk a few years later is, well, kind of the way things happen when someone falls prey to alcoholism.  I don't think it's fair to malign Alistair so broadly here.  His reaction to Loghain may not be the wisest or most mature, and certainly isn't the most pragmatic, Warden-y, approach to handling the situation he faced, but it is nothing if not believable.  From day one he had an idealized perception of the Wardens that we can see from very early on is completely at odd with what the Wardens are.  And he has spent his entire life with all the self-confidence of a dead frog, thanks to his upbringing.  I always play a Warden who maxes out friendship or love with Alistair, so I can never bring myself to spare Loghain.  I did it a couple times for science and it just...gah.  Couldn't do it.

[-TC1989-]

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

Silfren wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
 So assassination or taking him as a hostage are what are the most likely outcomes of him being sent to Orlais, given what we've heard Orlais is planning on doing.

I'd love Loghain to show up somewhere. He's one of the only characters I want to make an appearance in DA:I. I think in my play through he was heading to Orlais on Warden business. Not that that would stop them from doing anything to him, but he was being sent there.

I'm not a Loghain fan (like the character, dislike the person), but I think it's a shame his fate was left up to the player so that he could be alive or dead depending on the playthrough...sending Ferelden's most famous contemporary general, the one who ousted Orlais, into the heart of Orlesian territory, would definitely be a plot worth experiencing.  Especially were it done as a gesture from the Ferelden monarchy rather than the Wardens: I could definitely see Anora making a rather bold political statement by sending the Hero of River Dane to Orlais for some reason.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like something Anora would do, anything to either rub it in their face, or just to simply attract attention. Of course I'm sure from the Wardens perspective, they simply see it as sending one of their own on business, and it's just a coincidence that they both have bad history. I don't think it's the wisest move; I can't even imagine how many Orlesians want him dead after that war.

I also thought the whole justice system in the Landsmeet scene was a little stale, and done a little too quickly. I didn't like how after all that build up, and it ends rather abruptly. I almost felt obligated to keep him alive, because it just didn't feel right. Reason being too, is that you just don't throw away a mind like Loghain's when a war is literally at your doorstep, it's stupid. The fact that Alistair didn't care, and was willing to leave the country to it's death, really showed his character. Ever since then I haven't liked nor respected Alistair. What's more sickening is in DA2, he's sitting around drunk, STILL only feeling sorry for Duncan. Ridiculous...

I can agree that at the Landsmeet, things seem pretty rushed and get tied up much too neatly too quickly, but that's, I think, a limitation of the medium; it's as difficult to wrap things up "realistically" in a video game as it is a movie.  Books are far better at that than either. 

But from the standpoint of the characters, I can appreciate that Alistair's portrayal is completely realistic, both to his character, and to how someone in his position could be expected to react.  Keeping Loghain alive to join the Wardens is a pragmatic solution, one that definitely makes sense logistically due to Loghain's keen abilities as a general, and the fact that there aren't many Wardens to go around.  But from the in-universe standpoint--and I know that TEWR, and probably Lob, will disagree with me here--Loghain has spent the past year prior to the Landsmeet sanctioning the actions of Arl Howe, up to and including sending assassins after the two remaining Wardens in the area, and letting a civil war broil while he nurses his paranoia.  He might've been a great general once, but his actions almost guaranteed the destruction of Ferelden--it was by Flemeth's own machinations that this didn't happen.

Alistair sitting around drunk a few years later is, well, kind of the way things happen when someone falls prey to alcoholism.  I don't think it's fair to malign Alistair so broadly here.  His reaction to Loghain may not be the wisest or most mature, and certainly isn't the most pragmatic, Warden-y, approach to handling the situation he faced, but it is nothing if not believable.  From day one he had an idealized perception of the Wardens that we can see from very early on is completely at odd with what the Wardens are.  And he has spent his entire life with all the self-confidence of a dead frog, thanks to his upbringing.  I always play a Warden who maxes out friendship or love with Alistair, so I can never bring myself to spare Loghain.  I did it a couple times for science and it just...gah.  Couldn't do it.

I can respect your decision to kill Loghain, I have done it too. I guess in my mind, I'm thinking I can't make these kind of emotional, and personal decisions when we could all die in the next few days. Like you said, the Warden numbers are more than dire, and we needed every available hand, especially Grey Wardens to fight the blight. Now I'll also say, that at that point, I didn't know exactly how crucial having a Warden was, but Riordan did, and after that I respected where he was coming from. I wasn't exactly forgiving Loghain, because personally I wouldn't/couldn't, but I knew with his mind (assuming he's still capable of using it thoroughly) would be a great help to the war effort. Even if he wasn't the great military tactician that he previously was, he still more than clearly showed that he was still a great warrior.

In my mind it was kind of like "Lets settle the war now, and worry about handing out justice after we live through this". I understand too that Alistair was upset, but to turn your back on your country? On the enemy he swore to fight? I just thought he let it get too personal. He's willing to let this entire country die, because he didn't get his way?

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

From day one he had an idealized perception of the Wardens that we can see from very early on is completely at odd with what the Wardens are.

Eh, he's always known that the Wardens can and will do extreme things to end the Blight, as he'll tell you at Ostagar. It's just that he's incapable of really holding true to that belief when it comes to Loghain. I think he just believes Loghain's "crimes" are too extreme for him to be admitted.

I mean, there's still some idealization where he views the concept of joining the Wardens as an honor, but he does know at Ostagar that the Wardens aren't all saints.

Silfren wrote...

But from the in-universe standpoint--and I know that TEWR, and probably
Lob, will disagree with me here--Loghain has spent the past year prior
to the Landsmeet sanctioning the actions of Arl Howe, up to and
including sending assassins after the two remaining Wardens in the area,
and letting a civil war broil while he nurses his paranoia.

Yup, I gotta disagree here

He never really sanctioned a lot of what Howe did. Some things, yes, like the assassination attempt (which isn't personal. Just business*) and Anora's knowledge of the Joining implies that Loghain managed to decipher the secrets of the documents in the Denerim estate, which points to him going to create his own Wardens.

But Howe went through with a lot of things without Loghain's knowledge or approval. You also have to consider the position he's in. Howe has the greater part of the Coastlands under his control, so that immediately puts him as a threat if he's antagonized. If Loghain had done anything to Howe, Howe's supporters would be up in arms and fighting Loghain on a third front.

What Loghain did was, from a military standpoint, necessary. He detests Howe, he wants nothing to do with him, but at this point in time he can't worsen his position by making Howe move against him. In time, Howe came to manipulate Loghain a great deal.

And he wasn't paranoid about Orlais. They lied about how many forces they were sending. Loghain and Cailan were told four legions of chevaliers were on their way, whereas Riordan -- an Orlesian Warden with those troops -- says that two dozen divisions of cavalry (chevaliers) were on their way along with the 200 Wardens already expected.

A division is a larger force of men then a legion.

And while the initial belief one might have is simply that the four legions picked up more men along the way, this is not the case. I cannot recall where specifically, but the game said things that disprove such a notion. Might've been Riordan or Duncan at some point.

Finally, he never wanted civil war. His intention was that the Bannorn would rally under him against the Darkspawn after Cailan's death so as not to seem weak in the eyes of their neighbor Orlais. He wanted to present a guise of strength and that Ferelden wouldn't be sucked into a power vacuum as is typical when kings are killed without a proper heir. As you find out, the Bannorn were gearing up for war all thanks to Teagan's asenine focus on politics over security of the realm, when he wasn't even at Ostagar in the first place. While Loghain's men were also doing the same, I find it hard to believe that Loghain would strike the first blow and begin a civil war that he never wanted in the first place.

The blame for the civil war rests on the Bannorn, not on Loghain.

*As for the assassin business, the reason it's just business and not really a personal vendetta is that you're amassing an army at this point in time. Loghain fears that you're going to use that army against him.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 avril 2013 - 07:57 .

[In Exile]

-TC1989- wrote...
I also thought the whole justice system in the Landsmeet scene was a little stale, and done a little too quickly. I didn't like how after all that build up, and it ends rather abruptly. I almost felt obligated to keep him alive, because it just didn't feel right. Reason being too, is that you just don't throw away a mind like Loghain's when a war is literally at your doorstep, it's stupid. The fact that Alistair didn't care, and was willing to leave the country to it's death, really showed his character. Ever since then I haven't liked nor respected Alistair. What's more sickening is in DA2, he's sitting around drunk, STILL only feeling sorry for Duncan. Ridiculous...

Given the "mind" that we saw in action, throwing it away and setting it on fire would probably be the single best thing we could do for the war effort.

[-TC1989-]

In Exile wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...
I also thought the whole justice system in the Landsmeet scene was a little stale, and done a little too quickly. I didn't like how after all that build up, and it ends rather abruptly. I almost felt obligated to keep him alive, because it just didn't feel right. Reason being too, is that you just don't throw away a mind like Loghain's when a war is literally at your doorstep, it's stupid. The fact that Alistair didn't care, and was willing to leave the country to it's death, really showed his character. Ever since then I haven't liked nor respected Alistair. What's more sickening is in DA2, he's sitting around drunk, STILL only feeling sorry for Duncan. Ridiculous...

Given the "mind" that we saw in action, throwing it away and setting it on fire would probably be the single best thing we could do for the war effort.

You're basically implying as if he was some mumbling, crazed idiot. You're telling me, that a man with his history of fighting battles, it doesn't seem the least bit logical to maybe keep that around, when your entire country might face annihilation? As I said, even if he wasn't the master mind that he once was, he was still a great fighter, and it would easily be considered a waste to just kill him. Especially when he could be a Grey Warden, and then would be a key figure in killing the arch demon, thus ending the blight. I just do not see the logic in just killing him. Would he really be that much of a hindrance in the thick of battle with the darkspawn? The reason a lot of people want to kill him, is that he walked away from Ostagar, and let Cailan die, or people are mad because he hurt Alistairs feelings. I definitely think there should be some kind of punishment for him, but just killing him then and there? At least make him useful in the war that's coming right at you.

[In Exile]

-TC1989- wrote...
You're basically implying as if he was some mumbling, crazed idiot.  

He wasn't crazy (probably), but from everything we see in game, he's very much a bumbling idiot.

You're telling me, that a man with his history of fighting battles, it doesn't seem the least bit logical to maybe keep that around, when your entire country might face annihilation?  

Whatever he did in the past, everything at and post Ostagar, even if we give him the most charitable interpretation of all of his actions, ranges from unbelievably stupid to actually self-destructive. 

If I gave Loghain a shoelace, I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to hang himself with it.

I just do not see the logic in just killing him. Would he really be that much of a hindrance in the thick of battle with the darkspawn? The reason a lot of people want to kill him, is that he walked away from Ostagar, and let Cailan die, or people are mad because he hurt Alistairs feelings. I definitely think there should be some kind of punishment for him, but just killing him then and there? At least make him useful in the war that's coming right at you.

As a fresh body? Maybe. But Alistair doesn't like him, and we can find cannon fodder without the political baggage. 

[-TC1989-]

In Exile wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...
You're basically implying as if he was some mumbling, crazed idiot.  

He wasn't crazy (probably), but from everything we see in game, he's very much a bumbling idiot.

You're telling me, that a man with his history of fighting battles, it doesn't seem the least bit logical to maybe keep that around, when your entire country might face annihilation?  

Whatever he did in the past, everything at and post Ostagar, even if we give him the most charitable interpretation of all of his actions, ranges from unbelievably stupid to actually self-destructive. 

If I gave Loghain a shoelace, I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to hang himself with it.

I just do not see the logic in just killing him. Would he really be that much of a hindrance in the thick of battle with the darkspawn? The reason a lot of people want to kill him, is that he walked away from Ostagar, and let Cailan die, or people are mad because he hurt Alistairs feelings. I definitely think there should be some kind of punishment for him, but just killing him then and there? At least make him useful in the war that's coming right at you.

As a fresh body? Maybe. But Alistair doesn't like him, and we can find cannon fodder without the political baggage. 

Well it is your story, and your choice. Personally I wouldn't let Alistairs whining sway my decision, just because he didn't like him, but to each his own. In situations like that, I don't let my emotions, or my personal feelings get in the way of things like deciding the fate of an entire country. It is a political decision, and to me its just seems a complete waste to waste someone like him. To me you need every available hand, and his would be sorely needed, even if I personally couldn't stand him. It's war, not some simple murder trial.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

From day one he had an idealized perception of the Wardens that we can see from very early on is completely at odd with what the Wardens are.

Eh, he's always known that the Wardens can and will do extreme things to end the Blight, as he'll tell you at Ostagar. It's just that he's incapable of really holding true to that belief when it comes to Loghain. I think he just believes Loghain's "crimes" are too extreme for him to be admitted.

It goes beyond that, actually.  Alistair does acknowledge Warden extremism in Ostagar, I know that.  But throughout the game Alistair denies the reality of this, so I don't think he actually believes it, whatever he says.  The most efficient way to lose approval points with Alistair is by taking the less honorable route--even when at times when it's obviously the more practical decision, Alistair tends to verbally object or give you an approval hit.  Do it enough and he'll rip you a new in the party camp for dishonoring everything the Wardens stand for.  I've always wanted the option to yell a reminder at him about how the Wardens don't worry about being nice or honorable but getting the damn job done, because he does actively deny this.  Or at least he makes it his personal mission to MAKE the Grey Wardens a more honorable institution.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...
But from the in-universe standpoint--and I know that TEWR, and probably Lob, will disagree with me here--Loghain has spent the past year prior to the Landsmeet sanctioning the actions of Arl Howe, up to and including sending assassins after the two remaining Wardens in the area, and letting a civil war broil while he nurses his paranoia.

Yup, I gotta disagree here

He never really sanctioned a lot of what Howe did. Some things, yes, like the assassination attempt (which isn't personal. Just business*) and Anora's knowledge of the Joining implies that Loghain managed to decipher the secrets of the documents in the Denerim estate, which points to him going to create his own Wardens.

But Howe went through with a lot of things without Loghain's knowledge or approval. You also have to consider the position he's in. Howe has the greater part of the Coastlands under his control, so that immediately puts him as a threat if he's antagonized. If Loghain had done anything to Howe, Howe's supporters would be up in arms and fighting Loghain on a third front.

I do realize that Howe did a lot of things without Loghain's official sanction.  I'll even concede that Loghain clearly is not comfortable with the idea of sending assassins after the Wardens.  You can see that in his reaction to Howe bringing in Zevran.  But the fact remains, Loghain does let Howe get away with a lot.  Loghain took it upon himself to take up the reins of Ferelden's leadership, and did a ******-poor job of it.  I don't care what position he's in...HE is the reason he's in that position.

The Evil Writer Redux...
What Loghain did was, from a military standpoint, necessary. He detests Howe, he wants nothing to do with him, but at this point in time he can't worsen his position by making Howe move against him. In time, Howe came to manipulate Loghain a great deal.

And he wasn't paranoid about Orlais. They lied about how many forces they were sending. Loghain and Cailan were told four legions of chevaliers were on their way, whereas Riordan -- an Orlesian Warden with those troops -- says that two dozen divisions of cavalry (chevaliers) were on their way along with the 200 Wardens already expected.

I'm not convinced.  Loghain could have--and should have--let Anora go about her business as Ferelden's monarch.  I've never really been very clear on why he didn't.  I get that Ferelden was thrown into chaos with the loss of it's official monarch, but the lore is quite clear that everyone knew Anora was the one doing the actual ruling, and we also see it strongly implied that the other nobles were quite happy with her leadership.

I don't think it's necessarily true that Orlais lied about its forces.  If Loghain and Cailan were told together that four legions of chevaliers were on the way, that was a full year, or near to it, prior to Riordin's presence in Denerim.  It could easily be that things had changed, especially if Celene had reason to believe that, what with the Blight being allowed to progress unchecked thanks to Loghain's obstinence, she was advised that more were needed.  Sorry, I DO think that Loghain was letting his distrust of Orlais bleed over into full-blown paranoia.  Even if his mistrust was well-founded...there's a Blight on, which is a helluva lot more pressing.

The Ethereal Writer Redux...
Finally, he never wanted civil war. His intention was that the Bannorn would rally under him against the Darkspawn after Cailan's death so as not to seem weak in the eyes of their neighbor Orlais. He wanted to present a guise of strength and that Ferelden wouldn't be sucked into a power vacuum as is typical when kings are killed without a proper heir. As you find out, the Bannorn were gearing up for war all thanks to Teagan's asenine focus on politics over security of the realm, when he wasn't even at Ostagar in the first place. While Loghain's men were also doing the same, I find it hard to believe that Loghain would strike the first blow and begin a civil war that he never wanted in the first place.

The blame for the civil war rests on the Bannorn, not on Loghain.

I don't agree, TEWR.  I realize that Loghain thought he was doing what was best for Ferelden, but I think he went about it entirely the wrong way.  He was in fact so much more focused on Orlais as a potential threat than the Blight as the actual threat that he came very close to destroying the entire country. 

Modifié par Silfren, 28 avril 2013 - 01:46 .

[In Exile]

-TC1989- wrote...
Well it is your story, and your choice. Personally I wouldn't let Alistairs whining sway my decision, just because he didn't like him, but to each his own.

Alistair is unconditionally on your side. If you've ever been involved in cutthroat political games in any kind of organization, you'll come to realize very fast that loyalty trumps talent if you have no idea where that talent is going to fall when the chips are down.

Loghain just demonstrated he was willing to murder, betray and sell an entire race of people into slavery because he thought he was morally justified, not to mention tear Ferelden apart with a civil war.

Even if I actually thought Loghain was competent, I'd execute him and Anora just to ensure that any major figure-head that could oppose Alistair and Eamon's coalition was dead. 

In situations like that, I don't let my emotions, or my personal feelings get in the way of things like deciding the fate of an entire country. It is a political decision, and to me its just seems a complete waste to waste someone like him. To me you need every available hand, and his would be sorely needed, even if I personally couldn't stand him. It's war, not some simple murder trial.

Because it's war, you need to focus on unity. Look at ME3 - if Shepard put a bullet in Udina's head the second he saw him, everyone would have been better off. You don't need a unknown rogue in your corner, no matter how talented. If we're talking cold pragmatism. 

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But Howe went through with a lot of things without Loghain's knowledge or approval.

Loghain approved of murdering the Couslands and poisoning Eamon. He also approved of selling the entire alienage into slavery. Those are about the worst of Howe's crimes.

You also have to consider the position he's in. Howe has the greater part of the Coastlands under his control, so that immediately puts him as a threat if he's antagonized. If Loghain had done anything to Howe, Howe's supporters would be up in arms and fighting Loghain on a third front.  

The position that he's in is that he's an idiot. He's in bed with Howe because he's too incompetent to be able to actually get the Bannorn behind him in any sensible way after Ostagar beyond demanding that they owe him fealty because of how much he loves Ferelden.

Not to mention that this whole "Howe has military support" nonsense that you've drummed up to justify Loghain's crimes has absolutely no in-game support. 

What Loghain did was, from a military standpoint, necessary. He detests Howe, he wants nothing to do with him, but at this point in time he can't worsen his position by making Howe move against him. In time, Howe came to manipulate Loghain a great deal.

What he did from a military standpoint was somewhere between dangerously incompetent and idiotic, but we're talking about a man who thinks a pincer is some kind of tactical master plan and his idea of a chokepoint is to put troops in front of it instead of behind it.

And he wasn't paranoid about Orlais. They lied about how many forces they were sending. Loghain and Cailan were told four legions of chevaliers were on their way, whereas Riordan -- an Orlesian Warden with those troops -- says that two dozen divisions of cavalry (chevaliers) were on their way along with the 200 Wardens already expected.

Oh, Loghain is totally right about Orlais. But that's what makes him such an incredible idiot. It took talent and skill to come up with such a terrible plan to actually combat Orlais during a Blight. Running through the streets naked screaming the Orlesians were coming might well have been a better plan that what he ended up doing.

Finally, he never wanted civil war. His intention was that the Bannorn would rally under him against the Darkspawn after Cailan's death so as not to seem weak in the eyes of their neighbor Orlais.  

And this is what makes him such a moron. He's a peasant who rose far above his station, who'd be returning under the most suspicious possible circumstance where it just happened that his entire military might was unharmed and his King was dead. And his entire plan was that all of Ferelden recognize him as their ruler because he demands it. Yes. Brilliant plan. 
  

He wanted to present a guise of strength and that Ferelden wouldn't be sucked into a power vacuum as is typical when kings are killed without a proper heir. As you find out, the Bannorn were gearing up for war all thanks to Teagan's asenine focus on politics over security of the realm, when he wasn't even at Ostagar in the first place.

You mean Teagan's "asinine" focus on Loghain leaving Cailan to die and demanding that all of Ferelden recognize his leadership. When you leave your King to die and demand that everyone obey you, people are going to be pretty damn sceptical. 

And we know from what Teagan says that by that point Eamon was already ill. So we have Eamon poisoned, Loghain returning under what can only be called suspicious as **** circumstances, and Teagan's suppose to ignore what's clearly a powerplay?

While Loghain's men were also doing the same, I find it hard to believe that Loghain would strike the first blow and begin a civil war that he never wanted in the first place.

Given that he poisoned Eamon first - even if we buy your theory that he did it after Ostagar - Loghain struck the first blow.

Modifié par In Exile, 28 avril 2013 - 12:41 .

[Monica21]

In Exile wrote...
Alistair is unconditionally on your side. If you've ever been involved in cutthroat political games in any kind of organization, you'll come to realize very fast that loyalty trumps talent if you have no idea where that talent is going to fall when the chips are down.

Well, "unconditionally" isn't incorrect, is it? The moment you decide that four Wardens are better than three he leaves. And is he loyal to you because he thinks you'll help him get back at Loghain? Is he loyal to Duncan or is he loyal to the Wardens? He's clearly not loyal to the Wardens because he leaves. He's loyal to his own idea of justice, which is clearly not at all pragmatic given the circumstances. 

I would much rather have someone come to the conclusion that "this can all rightfully be called my fault" on his own, rather than someone who storms off because he disagrees with me on the best way to fulfill his oath.

Edited to add: Where do you get the idea that he approved of murdering the Couslands?

Modifié par Monica21, 28 avril 2013 - 01:04 .

[-TC1989-]

In Exile wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...
Well it is your story, and your choice. Personally I wouldn't let Alistairs whining sway my decision, just because he didn't like him, but to each his own.

Alistair is unconditionally on your side. If you've ever been involved in cutthroat political games in any kind of organization, you'll come to realize very fast that loyalty trumps talent if you have no idea where that talent is going to fall when the chips are down.

Loghain just demonstrated he was willing to murder, betray and sell an entire race of people into slavery because he thought he was morally justified, not to mention tear Ferelden apart with a civil war.

Even if I actually thought Loghain was competent, I'd execute him and Anora just to ensure that any major figure-head that could oppose Alistair and Eamon's coalition was dead. 

In situations like that, I don't let my emotions, or my personal feelings get in the way of things like deciding the fate of an entire country. It is a political decision, and to me its just seems a complete waste to waste someone like him. To me you need every available hand, and his would be sorely needed, even if I personally couldn't stand him. It's war, not some simple murder trial.

Because it's war, you need to focus on unity. Look at ME3 - if Shepard put a bullet in Udina's head the second he saw him, everyone would have been better off. You don't need a unknown rogue in your corner, no matter how talented. If we're talking cold pragmatism. 

If Shepard would have done that, humanity would have taken a pretty severe hit at the time. And who knows what that could have led to. Anderson would have probably tried to kill Shepard in turn. Anderson is a great man, but I can pretty much guarantee that he would do something to Shepard, if Shep just started shooting human politicians because he didn't like them personally. Humanity had to look out for itself, even supporting people like Udina, and if I remember correctly, wasn't Udina indoctrinated anyway by ME3? 

Loghain has been loved for years by pretty much the entire country. He's proven time and time again that he knew how to fight wars. You don't caste aside someone like that when something you have never truly faced in open war before is walking on your doorstep. I'd want every kind of special military mind to help defend my country, Warden or no. If I were the regent at that moment, I'd try (and did in the game) unite all the head figures into fighting together. I don't see how you think that would damn everyone including Loghain in the fight. What do you think he'd do? Try to turn against us, and join the darkspawn? Again, even if he wasn't the tactician that he was before, he is still a great fighter. Would you really throw away someone like that? I'm not saying he "deserves" a second chance, or that I even like the guy. But if I knew I had someone at my disposal with his fighting record, you damn well bet I'd keep him around for something.

And who the hell cares if Alistair was "loyal". He was willing to turn his back on the Wardens, and Ferelden, and let everyone die, because the Landsmeet didn't do the absolute honorable thing. Being a Warden means one thing, killing darkspawn. They don't concern themselves with politics, or what their friends decide to do. Wardens take any situation to swell their numbers, and fight blights. The fact Alistair didn't do that, shows that he betrayed his oath to Duncan, and the Wardens. Riordan even talked about that we had to look past the personal side of this whole Calian/Loghain fight, and look forward to saving the damn country, not serving personal justice right that second. I wasn't on board personally with making the joining ritual a death sentence, but I knew Riordan had a plan. And besides I was a Warden too, so I listened to what he had to say. And in my opinion, he was right. Because in a couple days none of that stuff will matter, we have to fight to survive, and killing each other (no matter how noble you're trying to be) won't help anything. Do you think anyone outside that Landsmeet will give a damn that we served justice, if it means that our chance of dying went up jus that little bit? Of course not. The main fear in life is death, and people would definitely be willing to overlook something like that at that time, and just deal with it later. What if having Loghain there would have made the difference? You would be willing to throw the country away to the darkspawn to appease Alistair, because he was really loyal?

[In Exile]

-TC1989-, 

I'm going to respond to you shortly - I have to step out. 

Monica21 wrote...
Well, "unconditionally" isn't incorrect, is it? The moment you decide that four Wardens are better than three he leaves.

Alistair hasn't left his superiors to die out of a paranoid fear that Orlesians are around the corner. 

Not to mention that this is only true if you don't harden Loghain. 

And is he loyal to you because he thinks you'll help him get back at Loghain? Is he loyal to Duncan or is he loyal to the Wardens? He's clearly not loyal to the Wardens because he leaves. He's loyal to his own idea of justice, which is clearly not at all pragmatic given the circumstances.  

It doesn't matter whether Alistair is pragmatic - though again, if hardened, he's pragmatic. What matters is that Alistair is a known quantity, and hasn't given any indication he'll betray people out of pure idiocy. 

He's loyal to his Warden's - the people who were left to die by Loghain, Duncan and all the rest that he tells you stories about. 

He's unwilling to work with the person who left everyone he ever loved to die if you've intentionally left him as an idealism, and it's pretty understandable why anyone would object to Loghain.

And that's ignoring just how incompetent Loghain is. 

I would much rather have someone come to the conclusion that "this can all rightfully be called my fault" on his own, rather than someone who storms off because he disagrees with me on the best way to fulfill his oath.

I'd rather have someone who won't brink down an entire country into civil war out of incompetence and sheer stupidty, and won't betray his lawful authority figures because he thinks he can do a better job. 

Loghain's "acceptance" is worth about as much as Alistair's idealism.

Edited to add: Where do you get the idea that he approved of murdering the Couslands?

Do you see Howe's head decorating a pike somewhere? Because I recall Loghain granting him lands and titles, including in Denerim and in Highever. Whatever excuse you want to make about Loghain not being involved or needing Howe, he approves his actions and goes so far as to reward him for it. 

Modifié par In Exile, 28 avril 2013 - 01:42 .

[Silfren]

Monica21 wrote...
Edited to add: Where do you get the idea that he approved of murdering the Couslands?

Loghain knew right from the start, in Ostagar, that Howe was responsible.  If you talk to him at his tent, he'll say as much. 

That alone says much about Loghain's character.  I don't buy that he was forced to work with Howe; codices on Howe indicate that he was not all that well liked, whereas Loghain is a national hero.  But he knew from the very beginning that Howe was involved in treachery, and yet he gives Howe considerable rein to do as he pleases?

[In Exile]

[quote]-TC1989- wrote...
If Shepard would have done that, humanity would have taken a pretty severe hit at the time. And who knows what that could have led to. Anderson would have probably tried to kill Shepard in turn. Anderson is a great man, but I can pretty much guarantee that he would do something to Shepard, if Shep just started shooting human politicians because he didn't like them personally. Humanity had to look out for itself, even supporting people like Udina, and if I remember correctly, wasn't Udina indoctrinated anyway by ME3?[/quote]

You're entirely right - it would be absolutely idiotic to shoot the official leader of humanity in the face during an unprecedented national crisis out of feelings that you might be personally betrayed at some point in the future without any kind of evidence beyond your prejudice and hunches.

Huh, wait, why are you saying that Loghain isn't an idiotic backsstabber?

[quote]Loghain has been loved for years by pretty much the entire country. [/quote]

By people like Eamon, who he conspired to poison so he could acquire political power during (at least from his POV) the largest darkspawn raid in Ferelden history.

[quote]He's proven time and time again that he knew how to fight wars.  [/quote]

He certainly didn't prove it in this war, when his brilliant tactic was the stupidest pincer move of all time. 

[quote]You don't caste aside someone like that when something you have never truly faced in open war before is walking on your doorstep. [/quote]

You're facing an endless horde of semi-sentient wild beasts. Idiots aren't valuable, and whatever Loghain might have done against Orlais, what he actually did against the Blight ranges from facepalm to LOL in terms of skill.

[quote]I'd want every kind of special military mind to help defend my country, Warden or no. [/quote]

Would you let Sandal lead the troops? Because at least his clear plan of "Enchatment!" is proven to work.

[quote] If I were the regent at that moment, I'd try (and did in the game) unite all the head figures into fighting together. I don't see how you think that would damn everyone including Loghain in the fight. What do you think he'd do? Try to turn against us, and join the darkspawn?  [/quote]

Gee, I don't know, maybe leave us to die because he thinks we'll sell Ferelden to the Orlesians? I mean, it's not like that wasn't exactly what he did to start this entire mess. 

[quote]Again, even if he wasn't the tactician that he was before, he is still a great fighter. Would you really throw away someone like that? I'm not saying he "deserves" a second chance, or that I even like the guy. But if I knew I had someone at my disposal with his fighting record, you damn well bet I'd keep him around for something. [/quote]

He's an old man with a pointy sword that the Warden (or his companions) just curbstomped into the ground. 

Loghain is a liability, even if he is good at sticking things with the pointy end.

[quote]And who the hell cares if Alistair was "loyal". He was willing to turn his back on the Wardens, and Ferelden, and let everyone die, because the Landsmeet didn't do the absolute honorable thing.  [/quote]

He was loyal to every single Warden who Loghain left to die for the sake of his vanity. He was loyal to the people who made him a Warden, because he demanded justice for them. He was willing to go to an extreme for them out of personal loyalty - because that's what matters.

[quote]Being a Warden means one thing, killing darkspawn. [/quote]

No. Being a Warden means stopping a Blight. And you don't stop Blights by being morons. 

Why do you think the Warden's don't tell people that the joining will poison their recruits, potentially kill them, and is the result of blood magic? Because it would be stupid. 

Taking anyone who can stab things with the right end of the sword is not what the Warden's need. 

[quote]They don't concern themselves with politics, or what their friends decide to do. Wardens take any situation to swell their numbers, and fight blights. The fact Alistair didn't do that, shows that he betrayed his oath to Duncan, and the Wardens. Riordan even talked about that we had to look past the personal side of this whole Calian/Loghain fight, and look forward to saving the damn country, not serving personal justice right that second. [/quote]

Loghain is a traitor, a gleeful betrayer, a slaver, and someone without any outcome of demonstrated political or tactical acumen. He and his daughter are direct political rivals to the other candidate for the throne of Ferlden. 

Killing Loghain is not only the tactically sound decision, it's also the political and morally sound decision. There is no downside to setting him on fire then and there. 

[quote]I wasn't on board personally with making the joining ritual a death sentence, but I knew Riordan had a plan. And besides I was a Warden too, so I listened to what he had to say. And in my opinion, he was right. [/quote]

OOC, we're talking about the Warden who thought that trying to jump on the back of a dragon was a good idea. If I had to pick one character in DA:O who I think has even less tactical prowess or sense than Loghain, it'd be Riordan.

But we didn't know that at the time. In fact, we don't know anything about Riordan. 

[quote] Because in a couple days none of that stuff will matter, we have to fight to survive, and killing each other (no matter how noble you're trying to be) won't help anything. [/quote]

Yeah, man, if only some idiot didn't engineer a civil war because he wanted to be Regent of Ferelden and lead it "right". 

[quote]Do you think anyone outside that Landsmeet will give a damn that we served justice, if it means that our chance of dying went up jus that little bit?  [/quote]

Why do you think I care about justice? Loghain is an idiot. If killing him throws a bone to Alistair, that's just a bonus. 

[quote]Of course not. The main fear in life is death, and people would definitely be willing to overlook something like that at that time, and just deal with it later. What if having Loghain there would have made the difference? You would be willing to throw the country away to the darkspawn to appease Alistair, because he was really loyal?
[/quote]

Loghain showed what kind of difference he can make at Ostagar. If a stray darkspawn arrow killed him right there Ferelden would have been better off.

Modifié par In Exile, 28 avril 2013 - 02:56 .

[TEWR]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Loghain just demonstrated he was willing to murder, betray and sell
an entire race of people into slavery because he thought he was morally
justified, not to mention tear Ferelden apart with a civil war.[/quote]

He didn't think he was morally justified. He knows how immoral it is, but he thought it was necessary despite that what with the Bannorn draining the war funds and the lack of any meaningful substitute to raise enough money quickly (the Circle).

[quote]Silfren wrote...

It goes beyond that, actually.[/quote]

Fair enough, I've never really pissed off Alistair.

[quote]I'm not convinced.  Loghain could have--and should have--let Anora go
about her business as Ferelden's monarch.  I've never really been very
clear on why he didn't. [/quote]

I suspect a few reasons. We know that Loghain doesn't know his daughter as well as people think he does and that in his eyes she'll always be his little girl. We also know that despite Cailan's womanizing, both Cailan and Anora did care for one another a great deal.

I suspect that after Ostagar, Loghain thought she'd be too grief-stricken over Cailan's death to rule properly. Again, he sees her as just his little girl. And perhaps there was a slight element of fear over her showing the same mindset a lot of other people are towards what transpired at Ostagar.

As time progresses, Anora starts to question her father's actions (which we see in-game), and Howe starts going all Grima Wormtongue on Loghain, making those fears worse. It's known that Howe did manipulate Loghain a great deal, so I see this as likely. Had Howe not been in the equation and had Bryce Cousland been alive, Anora (or Bryce) may very well have been handling the political elements while Loghain handled the war effort.

Frankly, I place more blame on Howe's shoulders then I do Loghain.

Furthermore, Loghain is a general and this is a war they're in right now. Two actually, to Loghain's lament. Anora has studied swordplay, governance, strategy, and so on but she's never actually lived it. Loghain has.

Finally, as capable as Anora is the Bannorn would have to cement her position on the throne with a Landsmeet, which would be tricky. Many are traditionalists that wouldn't want to see a non-Theirin take the throne, and when you throw in Alistair's status as being revealed the Landsmeet would be deadlocked in trying to decide. Given time, Anora could make the necessary deals and everything to ensure her position but time is not on anyone's side.

[quote]Silfren wrote...

I don't think it's necessarily true that Orlais lied about its
leadership.  If Loghain and Cailan were told together that four legions
of chevaliers were on the way, that was a full year, or near to it,
prior to Riordin's presence in Denerim.[/quote]

I always figured Riordan's been there for a few months.

But no, Riordan says that the Wardens were bringing all of their support troops when they first set out. Loghain and Cailan were told this was four legions, when it was really two dozen divisions. It isn't that Celene was just gathering more and more troops. Two dozen divisions were sent out originally under guise of being four legions and were halted at the border.

[quote]Silfren wrote...

Even if his mistrust was well-founded...there's a Blight on, which is a helluva lot more pressing.[/quote]

He did focus on the Darkspawn at first, before the Bannorn's prioritizing politics forced him to focus on the civil war. Waging a war on two fronts does not work well in normal circumstances (against other people). Fighting a near limitless army of Darkspawn alongside people -- when Darkspawn don't require food for survival and taint the land -- is not sound at all.

Yes, over time he starts to descend into thinking Orlais is far more worrisome, but the stress has been getting to him. And I imagine a slight bit of depression over what's going on. With each day Ferelden grows weaker because of the Bannorn's attempts to oust him from power (poorly, as they weren't unified, which led to their lands being conquered by Darkspawn if they beat Loghain's men), Loghain sees this as being better and better for Orlais.

But when you've lived the life he has, where your mother was raped (and killed IIRC), his father was murdered, his dog tortured, his countrymen slaughtered, and when you study just how Orlais treated Fereldan citizens or how they acted during chaotic situations in the past... his mistrust is extremely well-founded.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Loghain approved of murdering the Couslands[/quote]

David Gaider says no.

[quote]He also approved of selling the entire alienage into slavery[/quote]

The entire alienage was not sold into slavery. The Tevinters made it a point to pick and choose who they were buying, so saying the entire Alienage was sold into slavery is dishonest.

Besides the fact that this idea no doubt stemmed from Howe's mind originally, I've already addressed it above regarding financial considerations. And, of course, Howe's been stealing funds from the treasury behind Loghain's back, which caused the war funds to go down faster.

[quote]
The position that he's in is that he's an idiot. He's in bed with
Howe because he's too incompetent to be able to actually get the Bannorn
behind him in any sensible way after Ostagar beyond demanding that they
owe him fealty because of how much he loves Ferelden.[/quote]

If he was politically competent, he wouldn't need Howe at all. If Howe hadn't butchered the Couslands, Howe wouldn't have even been granted that position.

I've never denied he approached the Bannorn in the worst way possible, but his troubles at politics are part of his character. He's a commoner-turned-noble, with war being his expertise. Not politics. That's Anora's forte.

[quote]Not to
mention that this whole "Howe has military support" nonsense that you've
drummed up to justify Loghain's crimes has absolutely no in-game
support. [/quote]

Right, aside from the fact that when people conquer places they put people they can trust into positions of power to have their back.

Aside from the fact that Howe's usurpation of Denerim didn't have any suspicious airs about it, since Vaughan "died in the uprising", and only the Elves (whose word is spat upon) and a few knowledgeable people (Slim Couldry, half-elf) know that Howe's a slimeball in Denerim.

At the very least, he has Denerim's forces and Amaranthine's on his side, if we can't account for HIghever's total support. Amaranthine was handed over to his eldest son.

That's still a sizable force. Redcliffe's forces were sizable, and the Redcliffe arling isn't even that populated. Amaranthine and Denerim are.

[quote]It took talent and skill to come up with such a terrible plan to actually combat Orlais during a Blight.[/quote]

Right, securing the borders from people who you can't be sure would even follow your orders while trying to get the Banns to unite under your banner against the Darkspawn so as to show Orlais "Hey, the death of our king doesn't make us weak, so you better think twice about trying to invade us!" is definitely a "terrible plan".

HIs approach, terrible. His plan, not so.

[quote]Silfren wrote...

Loghain knew right from the start, in Ostagar, that Howe was responsible.  If you talk to him at his tent, he'll say as much.  [/quote]

Knowing what the man did is not the same as approving of it.

[quote]You mean Teagan's "asinine" focus on Loghain leaving Cailan to die and
demanding that all of Ferelden recognize his leadership. When you leave
your King to die and demand that everyone obey you, people are going to
be pretty damn sceptical. [/quote]

Oh please, Cailan killed himself. He focused on glory to the point of dangerous levels, repeatedly ignored and avoided Loghain talking strategy, sent his men charging out of a position that protected their side flanks after wasting Mabari troops and launching only one volley of arrows, fought on the front lines despite Loghain's and Eamon's protests on the matter, and didn't even have enough foresight to legitimize his half-brother that he's known about for years and name him as his heir (which wouldn't guarantee Alistair's ascent, but it'd help).

Cailan was a spoiled manchild who knew nothing of war and who killed himself by his own actions. Even had Loghain charged, the ocean of Darkspawn would've prevented Loghain's men from reaching Cailan in time, especially given how soon Cailan dies after the retreat is sounded.

And let's not discount out of hand how Cailan's confidant Elric Maraigne says that Cailan knew the battle wasn't winnable, even had Loghain charged. Is his word slightly unreliable given he deserted? Perhaps. Should it be thrown out wholesale? Not at all.

And then what would've happened, had he charged? The Darkspawn would've noticed Loghain's men and gone after them as they attempted to retreat, with utterly disastrous results.

Skepticism is fine. And I'm not saying they shouldn't take issue with it eventually. I'm saying doing so when the Darkspawn are on their doorstep is asenine. Do it after the Blight, if Loghain hasn't stepped down by then. At this point, Loghain should be seen by them as the "lesser of two evils".

Because, I dunno, he's a friggin' human instead of a mindless monster being ordered around by a draconic abomination.

The Bannorn were waging war against Loghain in disunified fronts, such that if they did manage to get a victory -- which as we know, Loghain was crushing them more often then not -- the Darkspawn destroyed their remaining forces.

[quote]And we know from what Teagan says that by that point Eamon was already ill.[/quote]

Yeah, which I believe was due to Eamon having a serious illness that grew progressively worse and hampered his immune system, considering the timeline is borked on the "Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar" schtick.

Not to mention that the Warden was incapacitated for a few days following Ostagar, and that's not accounting for the amount of time it'd take to travel from the Korcari Wilds to Lothering.

[quote]So we have Eamon poisoned, Loghain returning under what can only be
called suspicious as **** circumstances, and Teagan's suppose to ignore
what's clearly a powerplay?[/quote]

Right, except Teagan didn't know Eamon was poisoned, so you can't use that as evidence to support Teagan's actions.

And Teagan doesn't even believe Cailan's death was his own doing, that he was a glory-hounding fool. And Teagan's the man that spent his free time with the boy, and in every interaction we have with Cailan he goes on and on about "glory" and how he wants some of that.

Bravo Teagan, you're clouded by your relation to Cailan such that you can't see the truth about your own nephew.

[quote]Taking anyone who can stab things with the right end of the sword is not what the Warden's need. 
[/quote]

Ah, I didn't realize you were a better Warden then Riordan. Riordan, the man who knows what being a soldier entails and knows discipline and is willing to do the extreme things if they're necessary, who will sacrifice lives if need be (but would rather his own be sacrificed first).

Like Loghain, when he becomes a Warden.

Fact: They don't take "just anyone". They take people with skill, which Loghain has proven to have whether you like it or not. He's a hero to the people, such that if taken in many people are glad he's still alive.

That's a morale boost.

He's a general who knows how to wage wars, which is extremely valuable to the Wardens.

"We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2013 - 03:10 .

[Zeldrik1389]

Come to think of it, I always wonder why many people in Ferelden can be so stupid. I mean Loghain said the Wardens (whose only purpose is to kill darkspawn and protect the world against the Blight) betrayed king Cailan, led to BOTH king's army and themselves being total annihilated at Ostaga. That's the stupidest bs I've heard in DA:O and many people, both soldiers and civilians, believed it. Seriously, Grey Warden switched side, betrayed Cailan and support Darkspawn? What the heck? lol How could he even pull that off (even in the landsmeet). I kinda think some fereldans have smaller brain than their mabari hounds lol xD

[In Exile]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
He didn't think he was morally justified. He knows how immoral it is, but he thought it was necessary despite that what with the Bannorn draining the war funds and the lack of any meaningful substitute to raise enough money quickly (the Circle). [/quote]

Don't make things up. Loghain at the Landsmeet tells you straight up and outright that he's selling them into slavery because he thinks he can't defend Denerim's Alienage. 

And Loghain could have surrendered and let Eamon or Teagan put his head on a pike. But, of course, that wasn't necessary because then his glorious vision wouldn't be leading Ferelden.

[quote]
I suspect that after Ostagar, Loghain thought she'd be too grief-stricken over Cailan's death to rule properly. Again, he sees her as just his little girl. And perhaps there was a slight element of fear over her showing the same mindset a lot of other people are towards what transpired at Ostagar. [/quote]

Yes, your fan-fiction is absolutely authority. 

What we know is that Loghain's first move was to attempt to acquire political power as Regent. Even if he thought Anora was a bigger moron than Cailan, his plan shows what can only be described as a comical grasp of even basic political manuevering. 

[quote]As time progresses, Anora starts to question her father's actions (which we see in-game), and Howe starts going all Grima Wormtongue on Loghain, making those fears worse. Had Howe not been in the equation and had Bryce Cousland been alive, Anora (or Bryce) may very well have been handling the political elements. [/quote]

If Bryce Cousland would be alive, he'd be leading the Bannorn against Loghain the traitor. When Howe pulled Loghain's nonsense in front of Bryce, he got smacked down. And you think Bryce would approve of what Loghain did?

Not to mention that Loghain would have left Bryce to die with Cailan, if Bryce had been there. 

Which, of course, makes what Loghain does even more idiotic. 

Howe kills Bryce and steals his land, and Loghain's reaction is to offer him lands and titles. That in itself is justifiable grounds for the rest of the Banns to rise up against him.

[quote]Furthermore, Loghain is a general and this is a war they're in right now. Anora has studied swordplay, governance, strategy, and so on but she's never actually lived it. Loghain has. [/quote]

Do you actually know what a Regent even does? Because it's not "war". Loghain moves to acquire political power and demands that the Bannorn swear him fealty. 

The war they're in right now started when Loghain's right hand man murdered Teyrn Bryce Cousland and stole his lands. Afterward, Cailain dies under mysterious circumstances and Loghain and Howe show up toghether and Loghain demands their fealty as king.

It doesn't how little he conspired with Howe - only a complete idiot would look at this series of events and think anything other than Loghain trying to usup the throne.

[quote]Finally, as capable as Anora is the Bannorn would have to cement her position on the throne with a Landsmeet, which would be tricky. Many are traditionalists that wouldn't want to see a non-Theirin take the throne, and when you throw in Alistair's status as being revealed the Landsmeet would be deadlocked in trying to decide. Given time, Anora could make the necessary deals and everything to ensure her position but time is not on anyone's side.  [/quote]

Yeah, it's almost like a peasant asking the Bannorn to recognize him as their leader would be incredibly stupid and almost a guarantee for a civil war. But obviously a tactical genius would do something that idiotic, right?

[quote]He did focus on the Darkspawn at first, before the Bannorn's prioritizing politics forced him to focus on the civil war. Waging a war on two fronts does not work well in normal circumstances (against other people). Fighting a near limitless army of Darkspawn alongside people -- when Darkspawn don't require food for survival and taint the land -- is not sound at all. [/quote]

Please. His first move was to have the banns swear fealty to him. It's not politicizing when you've just staged a coup-d'etat. 

Again: he shows up with the man who right around Ostagar mudered Bryce Cousland and stole his lands as his right hand. 

[quote]David Gaider says no. [/quote]

Again: do you see Howe's head decorating a pike? Because I see Loghain giving him lands and titles. It doesn't matter if Loghain didn't conspire with him to do it - he not only accepts it, he rewards him for it. 

[quote]The entire alienage was not sold into slavery. The Tevinters made it a point to pick and choose who they were buying, so saying the entire Alienage was sold into slavery is dishonest. [/quote]

Yes, you're right. Silly me. He let Tevinter pick which elves out of the Alienage they could take as slaves. That's so different.

Even if I take your account - he still let them have the entire Alienage, because if they decided to take everyone he'd let them. The only think that stops literally every elf from being a slave is that Tevinter turns them down. 

[quote]Besides the fact that this idea no doubt stemmed from Howe's mind originally, I've already addressed it above regarding financial considerations. And, of course, Howe's been stealing funds from the treasury behind Loghain's back, which caused the war funds to go down faster. [/quote]

Loghain approved it. It's absolutely irrelevant who came up with it. And your fan-fiction about Howe being the great Satan who was robbing Loghain has no evidence.

[quote]If he was politically competent, he wouldn't need Howe at all. If Howe hadn't butchered the Couslands, Howe wouldn't have even been granted that position. [/quote]

Howe had absolutely no legitimacy, and his supporters were usurpers. If Loghain declared him a traitor and accused him of conspiring to murder Cailan and doing it, then there you go - he has a scapegoat to unite the entire land and can be Regent. The fact that he wants to work with the most morally distingusting piece of **** around shows you want kind of man Loghain is, the kind of principles he stands for. 

[quote]I've never denied he approached the Bannorn in the worst way possible, but his troubles at politics are part of his character. He's a commoner-turned-noble, with war being his expertise. Not politics. That's Anora's forte. [/quote]

His being an idiot is part of his character. Because if he was smart, and if Anora was this great political genius, then move A is to go to your great political genius. If he doesn't have the mental capacity to see his daughter for who she is, then he's not the asset you're writing fan-fiction about currently.

[quote]Right, aside from the fact that when people conquer places they put people they can trust into positions of power to have their back. [/quote]

I don't follow. Who are you talking about?

[quote]Aside from the fact that Howe's usurpation of Denerim didn't have any suspicious airs about it, since Vaughan "died in the uprising", and only the Elves (whose word is spat upon) and a few knowledgeable people (Slim Couldry, half-elf) know that Howe's a slimeball in Denerim. [/quote]

The CE killed him. The CE always kills Vaughn. The only difference is that when Duncan isn't there the CE dies in the dungeons. This grand conspiracy regarding Howe has no basis in the facts of the game, just your imagination.

[quote]At the very least, he has Denerim's forces and Amaranthine's on his side, if we can't account for HIghever's total support. Amaranthine was handed over to his eldest son. [/quote]

And with Redcliffe and the rest of the bannorn, Loghain can put him down like the rabid dog that he is, especially when he declares him as the traitor who engineered Cailan's death. 

A civil war was inevitable once Howe stole Bryce's lands. At that point, Howe declared war on the entire social order of Ferelden. Loghain just chose to stand with him. 

[quote]That's still a sizable force. Redcliffe's forces were sizable, and the Redcliffe arling isn't even that populated. Amaranthine and Denerim are. [/quote]

Loghain gave Howe Denerim. Let me repeat that: Loghain gave Howe Denerim. 

[quote]Right, securing the borders from people who you can't be sure would even follow your orders while trying to get the Banns to unite under your banner against the Darkspawn so as to show Orlais "Hey, the death of our king doesn't make us weak, so you better think twice about trying to invade us!" is definitely a "terrible plan". [/quote]

He engineered the death of his King! And then he proceed to demand that the Bannorn owe him fealty, even though it's a well-known fact how independent Fereldan's are. This entire situation is his own fault.

[quote]HIs approach, terrible. His plan, not so. [/quote]

His plan and approach are the same thing, and they're on a scale of stupid that it boggles the mind.

[quote]Oh please, Cailan killed himself. He focused on glory to the point of dangerous levels, repeatedly ignored and avoided Loghain talking strategy, [/quote]

Loghain's "strategy" was a pincer. Cailan was an idiot who wanted to be in the vanguard, but the plan Loghain came up with was a level of epic stupid that paralleled Duncan's refusal to tell anyone why the Warden's are actually worth anything tactically.

You explain aptly yourself just why this plan was so stupid. 

[quote]sent his men charging out of a position that protected their side flanks after wasting Mabari troops and launching only one volley of arrows, fought on the front lines despite Loghain's and Eamon's protests on the matter, and didn't even have enough foresight to legitimize his half-brother that he's known about for years and name him as his heir (which wouldn't guarantee Alistair's ascent, but it'd help).[/quote]

Mr. I don't know strategy if it would punch me in the face left the entire plan to Loghain, who came up with "abandone everyone to die in a put as the darkspawn rush". The only person that shows tactical prowess on a level equal to Loghain is Cailan, which is to say that it's hard to pick which one's dumber. At least Cailan's open about being an idiot, so you can just dismiss him out of hand.

[quote]Even had Loghain charged, the ocean of Darkspawn would've prevented Loghain's men from reaching Cailan in time, especially given how soon Cailan dies after the retreat is sounded. [/quote]

Yes, exactly! Which is what makes this plan so incredibly stupid to start with. 

[quote]Skepticism is fine. And I'm not saying they shouldn't take issue with it eventually. I'm saying doing so when the Darkspawn are on their doorstep is asenine. Do it after the Blight, if Loghain hasn't stepped down by then. At this point, Loghain should be seen by them as the "lesser of two evils". [/quote]

First of all, Loghain denies that there was a blight. Second of all, how about Loghain not demand that they owe him fealty? At that point, Loghain is the evil usurper. If someone wrote a book called "How to be an Evil Usurper and Start a Civil War", they'd just need a historical description of what Loghain did. 

Trying to pin this on the bannorn for not bowing down to an amoral slaver and backstabber is ridiculous. I might as well just say that Loghain should have let Orlais into Ferelden, and if they didn't "go away" after the Blight, he could deal with it then.

[quote]Because, I dunno, he's a friggin' human instead of a mindless monster being ordered around by a draconic abomination. [/quote]

Except, of course, he insists that this isn't what happened. He's adamant that he's just facing a darskpawn raid. Which, of course, makes his actions even more idiotic.

[quote]The Bannorn were waging war against Loghain in disunified fronts, such that if they did manage to get a victory -- which as we know, Loghain was crushing them more often then not -- the Darkspawn destroyed their remaining forces. [/quote]

Yeah, if only they had a respectable leader - someone like Arl Eamon alive. Wait! ****, Loghain already poisoned him first.

[quote]Yeah, which I believe was due to Eamon having a serious illness that grew progressively worse and hampered his immune system, considering the timeline is borked on the "Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar" schtick. [/quote]

Are you seriously writing fan-fiction about this too?

[quote]Right, except Teagan didn't know Eamon was poisoned, so you can't use that as evidence to support Teagan's actions.  [/quote]

Of course you can. Eamon is "suddenly" sick, Cailan is dead, and Loghain demands fealty, and his right hand man is the person who had Bryce Cousland murdered and stole his hands. Hell, the bannorn should revolt just for the fact that Loghain is supporting someone who is uproting their entire system of laws.

[TEWR]

Even if he thought Anora was a bigger moron than Cailan

Ah, twisting my words around are we? Quaint. You're not worth discussing this with then if you can't actually use some damn reading comprehension.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Loghain knew right from the start, in Ostagar, that Howe was responsible.  If you talk to him at his tent, he'll say as much. 

Knowing what the man did is not the same as approving of it.

......TEWR, working with Howe and letting Howe do as he pleases rather does smack of approval.  I don't believe that Loghain had no choice but to work with a man who he knew from the very beginning was responsible for slaughtering not just the ruling family but every last man, woman, and child within Highever's walls.  I mean, you really expect me to believe that, knowing what happened in Highever, Loghain just decided to work with Howe anyway?  It doesn't mesh with his character that Loghain would willingly work with someone who would enact that level of treachery and murder.  UNLESS you accept that Loghain's paranoia has gone far beyond what is reasonable.

I'm not going to argue for or against Loghain's actions in Ostagar because I don't know enough about military strategy to have an informed opinion.  I do find some things about Ostagar rather hard to swallow, such as the idea that Cailan was willing to throw his forces, meager by comparison, to a darkspawn horde that extended far beyond what the naked eyes could see, when we're told later in the game that he knew there would be no victory.  I mean, Cailan's idealistic and completely enraptured by Warden legend, sure, but it still seems like even the biggest idealist could figure out the stupidity of setting a twig against a hundred year old oak.  This, like other elements from Ostagar, look more to me like Bioware doesn't understand that self-contradicting lore is not how you go about creating ambiguity for differing interpretation.

I realize Loghain meant well, and thought he was doing what was best.  I think that's actually one of the strongest things about him as a character, and why I love the character, if not the person: he nearly destroyed the nation he loved because he was convinced that he, and only he, knew what was best and could DO what was best.  But the fact remains, he was NOT doing what was best in actuality, but what his paranoia insisted upon. 

Note that if you make Loghain a Warden, he actually does admit that he was wrong in his way of handling things.  I know what I do of Loghain's dialogue from watching Youtube vids, and it's been a while, but from memory it seems to be that he acknowledges that he screwed up royally from the get-go.  I don't remember him ever saying that he continued to believe that his actions were justified.

[TEWR]

......TEWR, working with Howe and letting Howe do as he pleases rather does smack of approval.

Allow me to elaborate a bit on what I mean.

I don't see him as approving of what Howe did, concerning the Couslands. Rather, I think that he did not approve -- as what Howe does throughout the game is an Orlesian thing to do, including the Cousland massacre -- and was going to bring the man to justice at some point in time when he wasn't necessary anymore to ensuring Ferelden's stability.

Or he would've, had he not been manipulated. I like to think Anora certainly would have, because she doesn't like Howe at all and recognizes him for being a slimeball.

Admittedly, however, Loghain doesn't really talk of his opinions on Howe or... anything concerning the man really. Only that Howe brought up the idea of killing Anora and blaming Eamon for it and that he (Loghain) refused the idea immediately -- which wouldn't have stopped Howe.

At least insofar as I can remember.

Still, his knowledge is only true for a HN Warden and even then, the situation is rather unique such that Loghain has some mitigating circumstances to factor in. But I'll admit that a person needs to know politics and military to understand it, so it might not be readily apparent.

Note that if you make Loghain a Warden, he actually does admit that he
was wrong in his way of handling things.  I know what I do of Loghain's
dialogue from watching Youtube vids, and it's been a while, but from
memory it seems to be that he acknowledges that he screwed up royally
from the get-go.  I don't remember him ever saying that he continued to
believe that his actions were justified.

Oh I know he admits he's wrong, but I don't think all of it is his fault. People may think they're wrong about something, but that doesn't mean they necessarily are.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 avril 2013 - 03:52 .