To answer the OP. No.
Not everybody is necessarily important to everything.
Do we want Loghain in DA3? (If he lived of course)
Débuté par
The Night Haunter
, sept. 23 2012 06:44
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#177
Posté 28 avril 2013 - 04:10
-TC1989-
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[quote]Huh, wait, why are you saying that Loghain isn't an idiotic backsstabber?[/quote]
Because this is a different situation. I can't even imagine what mental struggles he had to go through in the war with Maric, and I bet it does make you alittle "off" when dealing with things that involve something you spent half your life fighting.
[quote]By people like Eamon, who he conspired to poison so he could acquire political power during (at least from his POV) the largest darkspawn raid in Ferelden history.[/quote]
I agree, that was wrong, and I never said that he should never be punished. But at this point in the game, it is a unique situation. There is a time and place to do that, maybe when you don't have thousands of darkspawn breathing down your neck?
[quote]He certainly didn't prove it in this war, when his brilliant tactic was the stupidest pincer move of all time.[/quote]
Again, I never said he was right for doing what he did. Again though I can't imagine what he was thinking. He probably thought all that he fought for, was starting to slip away. I can sympathize with that at least.
[quote]You're facing an endless horde of semi-sentient wild beasts. Idiots aren't valuable, and whatever Loghain might have done against Orlais, what he actually did against the Blight ranges from facepalm to LOL in terms of skill.[/quote]
Well to be truly honest, if you think Loghain is a simple idiot, then you've made your point. I couldn't disagree more, but obviously you won't listen to anything on that front. Though I will say you're kidding yourself, if you think he'd be helpless in trying to strategize against the blight.
[quote]Would you let Sandal lead the troops? Because at least his clear plan of "Enchatment!" is proven to work.[/quote]
You are really comparing Sandal to Loghain in terms of a military mind? Yeah, I think that speaks for itself.
[quote]Gee, I don't know, maybe leave us to die because he thinks we'll sell Ferelden to the Orlesians? I mean, it's not like that wasn't exactly what he did to start this entire mess.[/quote]
Leave you to die? Sorry, that's Alistair you're thinking of. Loghain wouldn't let Ferelden die; he's spent his entire life fighting for its freedom.
[quote]He's an old man with a pointy sword that the Warden (or his companions) just curbstomped into the ground.[/quote]
Maybe for you, but I'm sure a lot of people maybe found him surprisingly hard. But as the story goes, you know he was supposed to be still a great fighter. If you truly believe he was some weak old man playing with swords, then you're just being ignorant.
[quote]He was loyal to every single Warden who Loghain left to die for the sake of his vanity. He was loyal to the people who made him a Warden, because he demanded justice for them. He was willing to go to an extreme for them out of personal loyalty - because that's what matters.[/quote]
No, it isn't what matters. He ended up convincing himself that Ferelden pretty much should die altogether, and forgetting his oath to his precious Duncan. So many people would die for never doing a damn thing to him, all because it didn't go his way right there and then.
[quote]No. Being a Warden means stopping a Blight. And you don't stop Blights by being morons.
Why do you think the Warden's don't tell people that the joining will poison their recruits, potentially kill them, and is the result of blood magic? Because it would be stupid.[/quote]
What the hell do you think I meant by killing darkspawn? Killing darkspawn sort of implies the blight as well. I never questioned why the Wardens never told their potential recruits of the truth behind the Joining.
[quote]OOC, we're talking about the Warden who thought that trying to jump on the back of a dragon was a good idea. If I had to pick one character in DA:O who I think has even less tactical prowess or sense than Loghain, it'd be Riordan.[/quote]
Okay, really? Put yourself in Riordan's shoes. His sole purpose was killing that dragon. He saw a chance, and he took it. Besides when the adrenaline is pumping, what do you think you would do at that moment where the dragon is literally RIGHT below you? Whoever said that he was a politician? I only said that he made sense, you see a potential recruit, you take it. Wardens can't be picky. They would hire thugs, and creeps all the time if they had the chance.
[quote]Yeah, man, if only some idiot didn't engineer a civil war because he wanted to be Regent of Ferelden and lead it "right".[/quote]
That has nothing to do with Loghain. I'm referring to the blight. Claim all the heroics, and the justice you want. But it won't really matter if you're all dead in a couple days from the blight.
[quote]Why do you think I care about justice? Loghain is an idiot. If killing him throws a bone to Alistair, that's just a bonus.[/quote]
I think you care a little too much what Alistair wants. Do more for what the country wants. I bet you'd be surprised how many people would believe he still has much to offer in the way of battle, but I digress...
[quote]Loghain showed what kind of difference he can make at Ostagar. If a stray darkspawn arrow killed him right there Ferelden would have been better off.
[/quote]
I'm starting to think trying to convince of Loghain having any worth is going into one ear, and out the other. And besides, if Loghain had died at Ostagar, who would you want to take his place? Howe??
Because this is a different situation. I can't even imagine what mental struggles he had to go through in the war with Maric, and I bet it does make you alittle "off" when dealing with things that involve something you spent half your life fighting.
[quote]By people like Eamon, who he conspired to poison so he could acquire political power during (at least from his POV) the largest darkspawn raid in Ferelden history.[/quote]
I agree, that was wrong, and I never said that he should never be punished. But at this point in the game, it is a unique situation. There is a time and place to do that, maybe when you don't have thousands of darkspawn breathing down your neck?
[quote]He certainly didn't prove it in this war, when his brilliant tactic was the stupidest pincer move of all time.[/quote]
Again, I never said he was right for doing what he did. Again though I can't imagine what he was thinking. He probably thought all that he fought for, was starting to slip away. I can sympathize with that at least.
[quote]You're facing an endless horde of semi-sentient wild beasts. Idiots aren't valuable, and whatever Loghain might have done against Orlais, what he actually did against the Blight ranges from facepalm to LOL in terms of skill.[/quote]
Well to be truly honest, if you think Loghain is a simple idiot, then you've made your point. I couldn't disagree more, but obviously you won't listen to anything on that front. Though I will say you're kidding yourself, if you think he'd be helpless in trying to strategize against the blight.
[quote]Would you let Sandal lead the troops? Because at least his clear plan of "Enchatment!" is proven to work.[/quote]
You are really comparing Sandal to Loghain in terms of a military mind? Yeah, I think that speaks for itself.
[quote]Gee, I don't know, maybe leave us to die because he thinks we'll sell Ferelden to the Orlesians? I mean, it's not like that wasn't exactly what he did to start this entire mess.[/quote]
Leave you to die? Sorry, that's Alistair you're thinking of. Loghain wouldn't let Ferelden die; he's spent his entire life fighting for its freedom.
[quote]He's an old man with a pointy sword that the Warden (or his companions) just curbstomped into the ground.[/quote]
Maybe for you, but I'm sure a lot of people maybe found him surprisingly hard. But as the story goes, you know he was supposed to be still a great fighter. If you truly believe he was some weak old man playing with swords, then you're just being ignorant.
[quote]He was loyal to every single Warden who Loghain left to die for the sake of his vanity. He was loyal to the people who made him a Warden, because he demanded justice for them. He was willing to go to an extreme for them out of personal loyalty - because that's what matters.[/quote]
No, it isn't what matters. He ended up convincing himself that Ferelden pretty much should die altogether, and forgetting his oath to his precious Duncan. So many people would die for never doing a damn thing to him, all because it didn't go his way right there and then.
[quote]No. Being a Warden means stopping a Blight. And you don't stop Blights by being morons.
Why do you think the Warden's don't tell people that the joining will poison their recruits, potentially kill them, and is the result of blood magic? Because it would be stupid.[/quote]
What the hell do you think I meant by killing darkspawn? Killing darkspawn sort of implies the blight as well. I never questioned why the Wardens never told their potential recruits of the truth behind the Joining.
[quote]OOC, we're talking about the Warden who thought that trying to jump on the back of a dragon was a good idea. If I had to pick one character in DA:O who I think has even less tactical prowess or sense than Loghain, it'd be Riordan.[/quote]
Okay, really? Put yourself in Riordan's shoes. His sole purpose was killing that dragon. He saw a chance, and he took it. Besides when the adrenaline is pumping, what do you think you would do at that moment where the dragon is literally RIGHT below you? Whoever said that he was a politician? I only said that he made sense, you see a potential recruit, you take it. Wardens can't be picky. They would hire thugs, and creeps all the time if they had the chance.
[quote]Yeah, man, if only some idiot didn't engineer a civil war because he wanted to be Regent of Ferelden and lead it "right".[/quote]
That has nothing to do with Loghain. I'm referring to the blight. Claim all the heroics, and the justice you want. But it won't really matter if you're all dead in a couple days from the blight.
[quote]Why do you think I care about justice? Loghain is an idiot. If killing him throws a bone to Alistair, that's just a bonus.[/quote]
I think you care a little too much what Alistair wants. Do more for what the country wants. I bet you'd be surprised how many people would believe he still has much to offer in the way of battle, but I digress...
[quote]Loghain showed what kind of difference he can make at Ostagar. If a stray darkspawn arrow killed him right there Ferelden would have been better off.
[/quote]
I'm starting to think trying to convince of Loghain having any worth is going into one ear, and out the other. And besides, if Loghain had died at Ostagar, who would you want to take his place? Howe??
#178
Posté 28 avril 2013 - 04:35
Silfren
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
......TEWR, working with Howe and letting Howe do as he pleases rather does smack of approval.
Allow me to elaborate a bit on what I mean.
I don't see him as approving of what Howe did, concerning the Couslands. Rather, I think that he did not approve -- as what Howe does throughout the game is an Orlesian thing to do, including the Cousland massacre -- and was going to bring the man to justice at some point in time when he wasn't necessary anymore to ensuring Ferelden's stability.
Or he would've, had he not been manipulated. I like to think Anora certainly would have, because she doesn't like Howe at all and recognizes him for being a slimeball.
Admittedly, however, Loghain doesn't really talk of his opinions on Howe or... anything concerning the man really. Only that Howe brought up the idea of killing Anora and blaming Eamon for it and that he (Loghain) refused the idea immediately -- which wouldn't have stopped Howe.
At least insofar as I can remember.
Still, his knowledge is only true for a HN Warden and even then, the situation is rather unique such that Loghain has some mitigating circumstances to factor in. But I'll admit that a person needs to know politics and military to understand it, so it might not be readily apparent.Note that if you make Loghain a Warden, he actually does admit that he
was wrong in his way of handling things. I know what I do of Loghain's
dialogue from watching Youtube vids, and it's been a while, but from
memory it seems to be that he acknowledges that he screwed up royally
from the get-go. I don't remember him ever saying that he continued to
believe that his actions were justified.
Oh I know he admits he's wrong, but I don't think all of it is his fault. People may think they're wrong about something, but that doesn't mean they necessarily are.
I understand politics quite well. Nevertheless I don't buy your explanations for Loghain feeling as if he had no choice but to work with Howe.
I realize that Loghain, being first a farmer and a military strategist, is not going to have a firm grasp of politics--in fact he strikes me as a man who would hate politics because it's never as straightforward or as simple as meeting an enemy on the field of battle. So I can see that he would absolutely suck at it. I think this is an argument, however, for not f*cking with a situation that WOULD cause extreme political turmoil. He may not understand or like or appreciate politics, but he was a teyrn for 20 years and his daughter is the Queen. He couldn't have not known that he would be opening a can of worms as far as politics goes. So I don't really care that he felt he needed Howe, despite Howe's crimes. If anything, it strikes me as even MORE phenomenally stupid that Loghain could have thought that working with Howe was the appropriate thing to do, since Loghain is supposed to be a brilliant strategist with phenomenal powers of observation. And when Howe suggested murdering his own daughter...you'll excuse me if I'm rather gobsmacked that that didn't make Loghain stop and think, "um, okay, this man I've allied myself with because I thought I had no choice...dude just seriously recommended to ME that I kill my DAUGHTER."
Taking what you say about him doesn't make me sympathetic to Loghain so much as, taking it with what we know of Loghain's character from the books and the lore presented in game, make me think of him as an even bigger idiot.
Modifié par Silfren, 28 avril 2013 - 05:05 .
