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[upsettingshorts]

Vandicus wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Given everything we know of Leliana now, including her past and future, I am less likely to take anything she said in DAO - to anyone - as the whole truth.

She didn't stop being a bard, guys.

Nah,she was honest IMO,but i think in those 10 years between DAO and DA2 ending,she got smarter,crystilised what she wants to do,and joined the seekers ,trust me i romanced her 5 times .

That's certainly possible, and for a while I believed that.

I just think it's more fun to think she totally pulled the wool over my eyes (as well as my Warden's eyes) and was just being charmingly manipulative the whole time.

Your mileage may vary.

That would make her outclass Morrigan in manipulative skill by far. The best manipulators never let their targets know they're being manipulated.

I actually think that's likely.  Morrigan I'd describe as simply more secretive. She knows things, and doesn't tell the Warden until that knowledge can be fully exploited.  If she had told the Warden about the Dark Ritual, and what Wardens need to do to defeat Archdemons much earlier in the story, the Warden might have had the time to ask the right questions, do some research, get second opinions, etc.  As it stands she brings up it at the exact moment the Warden is likely to be looking for a get-out-of-jail-free-card and doesn't have time to do any following up.  But Morrigan is also a loner swamp girl raised by a witch, albeit a very clever one who can shapeshift, but she lacks extensive experience.

Leliana had a significant career as a professional manipulator.  She didn't stop because she was discovered, but because she was betrayed by her handler.   She should already be classed in a wildly different league than Morrigan.  Though I think, if Morrigan had the interest or stomach for it, she has a higher potential ceiling due to being a mage/shapeshifter.  It's just not something she's been trained in or would really even enjoy.  Her goals seem more power-oriented.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 septembre 2012 - 06:08 .

[Wulfram]

So what's Leliana's motive for her supposed manipulation? What does she gain?

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

So what's Leliana's motive for her supposed manipulation? What does she gain?

I don't know.

Like I said, it's just an interpretation of the character I enjoy.  I never claimed to have all the answers, beyond that it would be within her skillset to accomplish.

[InfinitePaths]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

So what's Leliana's motive for her supposed manipulation? What does she gain?

I don't know.

Like I said, it's just an interpretation of the character I enjoy.  I never claimed to have all the answers, beyond that it would be within her skillset to accomplish.

Maybe her motive was to supervise the warden to kill the archdeamon sucesfully?

[Wulfram]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Maybe her motive was to supervise the warden to kill the archdeamon sucesfully?

How would she know the blight was imminent?

Why wouldn't she just say "Hi, I'm an agent of the chantry, and I want to help you stop the blight" rather than making herself look crazy?

[Robhuzz]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Given everything we know of Leliana now, including her past and future, I am less likely to take anything she said in DAO - to anyone - as the whole truth.

She didn't stop being a bard, guys.

Nah,she was honest IMO,but i think in those 10 years between DAO and DA2 ending,she got smarter,crystilised what she wants to do,and joined the seekers ,trust me i romanced her 5 times .

That's certainly possible, and for a while I believed that.

I just think it's more fun to think she totally pulled the wool over my eyes (as well as my Warden's eyes) and was just being charmingly manipulative the whole time.

Your mileage may vary.

That would make her outclass Morrigan in manipulative skill by far. The best manipulators never let their targets know they're being manipulated.

It will be fun to see how this turnes out in DA3,im hoping for her return

After seeing how they mutilated Anders' character in DA2, I think I'd rather not see Leliana back in DA3 for fear that they might do the same to her. I'd rather think she's living quite comfortably with the Warden at castle Highever...

[General User]

My question is: If Leliana was "working" the Warden from the start, how could she have known that two Wardens even survived Ostagar for her to work? Let alone that they would be passing through Lothering afterward.

[jackofalltrades456]

Robhuzz wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Given everything we know of Leliana now, including her past and future, I am less likely to take anything she said in DAO - to anyone - as the whole truth.

She didn't stop being a bard, guys.

Nah,she was honest IMO,but i think in those 10 years between DAO and DA2 ending,she got smarter,crystilised what she wants to do,and joined the seekers ,trust me i romanced her 5 times .

That's certainly possible, and for a while I believed that.

I just think it's more fun to think she totally pulled the wool over my eyes (as well as my Warden's eyes) and was just being charmingly manipulative the whole time.

Your mileage may vary.

That would make her outclass Morrigan in manipulative skill by far. The best manipulators never let their targets know they're being manipulated.

It will be fun to see how this turnes out in DA3,im hoping for her return

After seeing how they mutilated Anders' character in DA2, I think I'd rather not see Leliana back in DA3 for fear that they might do the same to her. I'd rather think she's living quite comfortably with the Warden at castle Highever...

Yeah, I've heard that Anders writing in Dragon Age 2 was so awful to a point where people were actually making death threats to Jennifer Hepler. It was to a point where Bioware's founders had to make a statement about it.


I'm just hoping that Leliana just does her thing in Dragon age 3, they keep true to her character, and she remains faithful to the Warden. I don't want to her suddenly transform into an anti-mage, bloodthirsty lunatic that blows up a Mages Circle at the end for no raisin.

Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 23 septembre 2012 - 07:01 .

[hoorayforicecream]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

Yeah, I've heard that Anders writing in Dragon Age 2 was so awful to a point where people were actually making death threats to Jennifer Hepler. It was to a point where Bioware's founders had to make a statement about it.

You heard wrong. The post you linked had to do with an interview Hepler did in 2006 (while working on DAO), in which she said that she doesn't always like playing the games herself. She specifically said that she would like to be able to skip the combat in some games the way you can skip through the dialogue. Earlier this year, some people took her specific quotes on disliking the playing herself and the wishing to skip combat from that 2006 interview out of context and called her a cancer on gaming. This is what garnered her the death threats, which led to the statement you linked.

That said, I'm interested in seeing what happens with Leliana. I don't actually mind retcons so much, because they sometimes work and work well. For example:

- Captain America was supposed to be dead, but they retconned his death.
- Lex Luthor was originally just a mad scientist who hated Superman because Superman made him lose his hair. Byrne retconned Lex Luthor into the evil businessman we see today.

[Vandicus]

General User wrote...

My question is: If Leliana was "working" the Warden from the start, how could she have known that two Wardens even survived Ostagar for her to work? Let alone that they would be passing through Lothering afterward.

Although Upsetting does not hypothesize a motive, the idea that Leliana's goal was to stop the Blight(assuming she verifies its existence upon arrival) is a reasonable one. As for meeting the Warden, she could've been led there by visions, or it could've been a matter of chance(I favor it being a matter of chance in this case since her recruitment can be avoided). The Wardens, as we know, are the only real way to kill an Archdemon. Since Loghain has known tendencies to distrust the Wardens, after his power grab, Leliana would've been aware that she needs indigenous Wardens in order to stop the Blight. Seeing the opportunity to join this group of Wardens and aid them would allow her to accomplish her mission without needing to blow her cover. No one ever realizes that an Orlesian bard working for secret group X or for Justinia helps to orchestrate the downfall of the Archdemon.

[upsettingshorts]

Robhuzz wrote...

After seeing how they mutilated Anders' character in DA2

Oh look, someone else who gets Anders completely wrong in both DA:A and DA2.  That's new.  No.. what's the word I'm looking for?

Tedious.

[legbamel]

I tend to wonder if Leliana wasn't undercover as a lay sister in Lothering for some other reason entirely, such as rumors of mage instability and unrelated factors. Who better to investigate than some innocuous sister traveling the countryside on missions of charity? And then the Blight overwhelms her original purpose and along come the Wardens and Morrigan on a mission to go all over the country, including actually into the Ciricle. Of course she'd jump at the chance!

That, for me, ties in her relatively-swift elevation from ex-lay sister to most-trusted inner circle as Seeker, as well as freaky obsession with the Warden's eyelashes a little less creepy. She just went over the top, is all, in trying to sound like an innocent, lovestruck girl. She didn't really want to keep them in a jar by her pillow. [shudder]

[Robhuzz]

legbamel wrote...

I tend to wonder if Leliana wasn't undercover as a lay sister in Lothering for some other reason entirely, such as rumors of mage instability and unrelated factors. Who better to investigate than some innocuous sister traveling the countryside on missions of charity? And then the Blight overwhelms her original purpose and along come the Wardens and Morrigan on a mission to go all over the country, including actually into the Ciricle. Of course she'd jump at the chance!

That, for me, ties in her relatively-swift elevation from ex-lay sister to most-trusted inner circle as Seeker, as well as freaky obsession with the Warden's eyelashes a little less creepy. She just went over the top, is all, in trying to sound like an innocent, lovestruck girl. She didn't really want to keep them in a jar by her pillow. [shudder]

Don't forget that the Divine Justinia she is working for used to be Revered Mother Dorothea from Denerim. The very Mother that helped her get out of the bard's game in Leliana's Song DLC. And the reason why she went to the chantry in the first place. And probably the biggest reason she survived that ordeal all.

[legbamel]

Excellent points! I had, indeed, forgotten that she was the Revered Mother in Denerim. I haven't played Leliana's Song for so long that I can't even remember if it's conceivable that she was undercover when she began training as a bard. The Chantry does tend to get their hooks in people, whether into the Circle or other training, awfully young in Thedas.

[Cigne]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

So what's Leliana's motive for her supposed manipulation? What does she gain?

I don't know.

Like I said, it's just an interpretation of the character I enjoy.  I never claimed to have all the answers, beyond that it would be within her skillset to accomplish.

Her motive could be pleasure in the use of her skills. There are people who just enjoy playing the game; later, as an agent of the Chantry, she found a new 'handler'.

I had wardens who suspected as much, but didn't care. I mean, that sweet laughter....

[InfinitePaths]

OH OH i have a great idea.Maybe she was sent by the chantry to feed false information to the warden,get close to him and then manipulate him...


EDIT: Act so nice,and innocent and cute,and then manipulate him,clever girl,God i'm getting so paranoid -.-

Modifié par HeriocGreyWarden, 23 septembre 2012 - 07:44 .

[Bluto Blutarskyx]

 Wow-

I interpreted that epilogue way differently.

it always seemed to me that the alien warlord zinyak posed as the maker and took leliana because he mistook her for Jane Austen who zinyak (a fan) always meant to kidnap using his people's advanced time travel technology.  So when the plucky rogue known as "the boss" of that game killed zonal and took over the alien empire she traveled back in time and snatched the warden up.  The resulting time loop created caused the birth of alf and resulted in mr belvedere being televised and actually having a fan.

i really don't see how anyone can really not interpret the epilogue like that now that I've typed it.

[Hellion Rex]

Wow. Did we really need to necro this?

[Nightdragon8]

eluvianix wrote...

Wow. Did we really need to necro this?

yea it was necro'd but... if this just rumor and hearsay then what about the choice and teh aftermath of the drawf city?

[Aolbain]

Bluto Blutarskyx wrote...

 Wow-

I interpreted that epilogue way differently.

it always seemed to me that the alien warlord zinyak posed as the maker and took leliana because he mistook her for Jane Austen who zinyak (a fan) always meant to kidnap using his people's advanced time travel technology.  So when the plucky rogue known as "the boss" of that game killed zonal and took over the alien empire she traveled back in time and snatched the warden up.  The resulting time loop created caused the birth of alf and resulted in mr belvedere being televised and actually having a fan.

i really don't see how anyone can really not interpret the epilogue like that now that I've typed it.

A. Year. Old. A freaking year! I didnt even know that theads were saved that long!

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Frankly, I'm thinking pretty much all of Leliana's epilogues were retconned, guy from a year ago. Or at least twisted a bit to fit this agent of the Divine thing they want her to be doing.

And;

Wulfram wrote...

I don't really see how tossing out all of her characterisation and character development as lies is fun.

Thank you, Wulfram from a year ago.

Modifié par SergeantSnookie, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:19 .

[Milan92]

Nooooo peoplez can't touch mah headcanon ending with Leli!

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

If they're going to prove all these conspiracy theories true, (which I doubt.) I think they should have at least done it at a time where the Warden could react to it.

Honestly, revealing all that in Inquisiton would just feel like farting in DAO's room on the way out the door.

Modifié par SergeantSnookie, 19 novembre 2013 - 06:35 .

[Angrywolves]

Not a retcon.
I feel sure Leliana disappeared to turn up in Orlais. I do believe she loved the warden though.

[Shadow Fox]

Maybe Cass talked her out of it?