65 réponses à ce sujet

[TheShadowWolf911]

im with one of the other psoters, a Happy ending needs to be implemented, but you have to EARN it........kinda of like the Suikoden games.

[blueumi]

I just want the ending to make sense and fit the rest of the game as mass effect 3s ending makes no sense and is nothing like the rest of all three games

game endings need to reward the player for the time and effort they put in

[ev76]

I think endings to most of bioware games where fine (extended cut helped the me3 ending), origins and awakenings where fine. More power to bioware if they add cinematic endings but slides where cool. That said the only one I had a tad problem with was da2 hawke just went missing add to the fact that leiliana also mentioned the warden is missing! Please don't allow the protagonist of da3 to just go missing.
I would like to solve the mystery of the missing hawke and warden!!

[Versus Omnibus]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

im with one of the other psoters, a Happy ending needs to be implemented, but you have to EARN it........kinda of like the Suikoden games.

I don't mind so much as not getting a happy ending, so much as getting an ending where I felt I accomplished something. ME3's ending was terrible to me because I felt I made things worse instead of better, and I felt that way until the EC came out.

So Bioware; please make DA3's ending more detailed on what I accomplished.

[gangly369]

Pedrak wrote...

gangly369 wrote...

It's a given that they are gonna try and make a good ending so making this type of thread seems kind of pointless to me. If they have the time and resources, I'm sure that the ending will be something that a large majority of players will like (being optimistic on the BSN forums. Shocking I know)

It's not a given, considering the precedents, that the ending(s) will not be rushed or a cliffhanger. In fact... it would be quite a novelty.

But I see what you did here. Many video games endings are poor , most Bio endings are rushed, their last one was regarded as something of a fiasco, but there's no doubt DA3's will be good, making the very discussion of it pointless. I like your thinking!

1) I never said it was a given that the ending would be good. I said it's a given that they are going to TRY and make a good ending. Hence why this is a pointless discussion. We have no bearing over what time and resources they will have, thats up to the top execs  

2) I noted that I have never really liked any of the endings for anything (games or books) in this genre. That is not to say a lot of people don't like the endings either. In fact I think that many people do like them. KOTOR, JE, DA:O, ME, I recall seeing many people comment on how great those endings were (wether thats through nostalgia or not though, who knows). I personally, didn't like any of them. There was always some cliche in there they I found unappealing

 In other words, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say at all that DA3 will have a good ending no matter what. All I said was that if they have the time, then I believe that they will find an ending that satisfies MANY people, not ALL the people. That is my personal belief. Maybe they won't do, who knows. Having a discussion about it, though, will not change anything whatsoever, because the stuff that factors into making that ending (time and resources) is beyond our reach and, in many cases, the devs as well.

[devSin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is the first that I've seen that some of BioWare's earlier games had poor endings too.

I very much doubt this, unless you've never been involved in a NWN discussion. :-)

But I think it's been the case that usually you're setting up a sequel or expansion. BG? There are more Bhaalspawn out there, oh noes! BG2? There are more Bhaalspawn out there, oh noes! NWN? There is a toolset! Try it! SoU? And now I shall make myself disappear!

ToB tried to wrap up the BG franchise, and HotU ended that weird story that started in SoU (Deekin!). And I think people generally like those endings, but they're very much caps to their respective series (all of which featured cliffhanger sort of endings for their earlier installments).

I think Jade Empire had a successful ending (it resolved the story it started out to tell, and left the world still relevant), and I loved Origins' ending (Ultimate Sacrifice is probably my all-time favorite video game ending, but I found the other variations enjoyable as well).

ME and ME2 are serviceable, but again, they're clearly meant to be cliffhangers. "Them Reapers is still out there, and we's gonna stop 'em!" Unlike BG and NWN series, though, the final installment had that inexplicably abysmal ending, which really retroactively pulps the endings for the other two (and the stories overall in large part, with the number of inconsistencies and absurdities created by the third).

DA2 also seemed to be a step backward from Origins (which left its world in a state that allowed for an expansion, rather than explicitly setting up a sequel or expansion like BioWare has tended to do). Although it tied off the story being told, it spent relatively little time on it, and it didn't really deign to resolve any of the character threads (although you can't do this completely in an ongoing world, you should still be able to say something about what happens to the people who were thrust into the story).

So I guess the only request I would have is for satisfactory resolution to the story being told. If you're going to be doing an expansion or sequel, don't set it up at the expense of adequate closure for the current story. (I'm not worried about failure on the scale of ME3, not from this team, so I doubt any effort needs to be spent trying to avoid that particular outcome.)

Modifié par devSin, 24 septembre 2012 - 02:19 .

[ElitePinecone]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is the first that I've seen that some of BioWare's earlier games had poor endings too.

Ditto. I loved ME/ME2's endings, and KOTOR's was brilliant in its range of outcomes based on player choices.

[Nashimura]

I want slideshows they offer good closure, which is important to many. Its not like a film, in a game like the kind bioware makes you spend 30+ hours getting to know these characters and experiencing the story and closure is needed at some point....obviously you can have unresolved plot points here and they, some mystery too and some that are left for later games. I trust that the writers know what needs to be done, they got it spot on with Origins while DA2's cancelled expansion might screw with it a little or just move it along to the 3rd game.

[Vandicus]

Nashimura wrote...

I want slideshows they offer good closure, which is important to many. Its not like a film, in a game like the kind bioware makes you spend 30+ hours getting to know these characters and experiencing the story and closure is needed at some point....obviously you can have unresolved plot points here and they, some mystery too and some that are left for later games. I trust that the writers know what needs to be done, they got it spot on with Origins while DA2's cancelled expansion might screw with it a little or just move it along to the 3rd game.

While I couldn't care less about ending slideshows or epilogue text personally, clear closure of events is one of the most common requests that I've seen, especially when it came to the DA2 and ME3 endings. It seems that putting them in would(and does as Extended Cut shows) satisfy a lot of folks for whom this matters. 

[Nashimura]

Vandicus wrote...

Nashimura wrote...

I want slideshows they offer good closure, which is important to many. Its not like a film, in a game like the kind bioware makes you spend 30+ hours getting to know these characters and experiencing the story and closure is needed at some point....obviously you can have unresolved plot points here and they, some mystery too and some that are left for later games. I trust that the writers know what needs to be done, they got it spot on with Origins while DA2's cancelled expansion might screw with it a little or just move it along to the 3rd game.

While I couldn't care less about ending slideshows or epilogue text personally, clear closure of events is one of the most common requests that I've seen, especially when it came to the DA2 and ME3 endings. It seems that putting them in would(and does as Extended Cut shows) satisfy a lot of folks for whom this matters. 

And of course, there are other ways of offering closure...Text and slideshows are the easest though.

[CELL55]

Could we also get the lead up to the ending improved too? DA2's endings felt pretty much the same to me: The Chantry blows up, you side with a crazy person, you kill Orsino, then you kill Meredith. I just described both siding with the Templars AND siding with the Mages.

Both sides felt too alike to me, as though in an effort to make it a hard choice, they just made both sides crazy and morally reprehensible. They weren't all that different to me in their faults or in their redeeming qualities, and as a result I felt really apathetic because it didn't seem to matter what I chose.

[Vandicus]

CELL55 wrote...

Could we also get the lead up to the ending improved too? DA2's endings felt pretty much the same to me: The Chantry blows up, you side with a crazy person, you kill Orsino, then you kill Meredith. I just described both siding with the Templars AND siding with the Mages.

Both sides felt too alike to me, as though in an effort to make it a hard choice, they just made both sides crazy and morally reprehensible. They weren't all that different to me in their faults or in their redeeming qualities, and as a result I felt really apathetic because it didn't seem to matter what I chose.

The ending with Anders blowing any chance of peace into smithereens and being unable to save the situation is supposed to create despair. Orsino wasn't really much of a loss though, he was involved in Leandra's death(helped the crazy person with his research). Meredith was a shame because her irrationality was a result of the lyrium idol.

[CELL55]

Vandicus wrote...

CELL55 wrote...

Could we also get the lead up to the ending improved too? DA2's endings felt pretty much the same to me: The Chantry blows up, you side with a crazy person, you kill Orsino, then you kill Meredith. I just described both siding with the Templars AND siding with the Mages.

Both sides felt too alike to me, as though in an effort to make it a hard choice, they just made both sides crazy and morally reprehensible. They weren't all that different to me in their faults or in their redeeming qualities, and as a result I felt really apathetic because it didn't seem to matter what I chose.

The ending with Anders blowing any chance of peace into smithereens and being unable to save the situation is supposed to create despair. Orsino wasn't really much of a loss though, he was involved in Leandra's death(helped the crazy person with his research). Meredith was a shame because her irrationality was a result of the lyrium idol.

But I didn't feel despair, I felt apathy (and perhaps a bit of annoyance). It was all railroading out the wazoo. Help Anders with his quest? He blows up the Chantry. Stop Helping him halfway through? He blows up the Chantry. Don't help him at all? He blows up the Chantry.  Friendship? He blows up the Chantry.  Rivalry? He blows up the Chantry. 
Then you have to ally yourself with a crazy person (Instead of walking out or killing them both ), then you kill Orsino, then you kill Meredith. 
This profound lack of choice didn't make me feel despair, it made me feel like I didn't matter. Like my choices didn't matter. There didn't seem to be much point in continuing playing when all of my choices were dictated to me by the game. Hawke may have been important to the story, but I would never say that he was essential to it.

I think DA2 would have made a better book than a videogame. If they weren't going to bother letting us make meaningful choices, then why bother putting it into game format? It seems to me that the whole purpose of the game is to lead into DA3, thus constraining what Bioware could do with the narrative. Better to make that a book, rather than in a videogame where I expect to be able to make meaningful choices that lead to at least somewhat different conclusions.

Modifié par CELL55, 24 septembre 2012 - 05:12 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

I want slideshows. They provide the most optimum amount of closure, as such detailed information can never been shown through cutscenes.

[Reznore57]

Problem i had with DA2 is the "and then they disapear in the sunset."

Most companions at the end of DA2 are at a turning point in their lives , the world in the end is also at a turning point .
So when you're left with an ending like that , the only thing you can do is scratch your head.

I was super happy with the idea of an extension because i thought it would answer all those questions left hanging there.
My character was running away from kirkwall , with no idea if she's gonna be hunted , celebrated whatever...with companions who lost everything.
And most of them pretty unsure about their future.
Fenris is finally free , but what is he gonna do with his freedom?Don't know.
Merrill broke her eluvian and decided to move on ...but i have no idea how.
Aveline , no idea if she can go back to Kirkwall , and the life of a fugitive doesn't suit her much , so again no idea what's going on .
Etc...
The world is in the brick of war ...what does it mean exactly?In what kind of world my character is evolving now?Don't know.

That's why i think people want a kind of closure , because it's really super hard to imagine what's going on after the end .Too much unknown going on.

Same with ME3 , in the end you 're left with an unknown world ,you have no clue what's going on with your companion , what happen with your choices.It's just a big blur.

Both ending deals with a "Boom" that's supposed to change the world ...maybe Bioware should step away from explosives .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Pedrak wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

What's wrong with slideshows? Fallout 2 has a better ending - and probably more of them - thanks to this than any other RPG I can even think of. DAO handled it just fine, too.

They feel narratively inconsistent with the (now) mainly cinematic tone of the games. If we get a deluge of cutscenes while playing the game (even taking the control of the scene away from the player, see the Kai Leng duels in ME3), they might as well make the effort to give us a compelling cinematic epilogue, showing what slideshows usually tell - the epilogue is actually a better place for long cutscenes than the rest of the game, I'd argue. 

I'll agree with cutscenes for epilouge. Star Ocean: The Last Hope had about half an hour's worth of cutscenes going into what each character did after the game and I really liked it.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 24 septembre 2012 - 05:57 .

[Last Vizard]

ev76 wrote...

I think endings to most of bioware games where fine (extended cut helped the me3 ending), origins and awakenings where fine. More power to bioware if they add cinematic endings but slides where cool. That said the only one I had a tad problem with was da2 hawke just went missing add to the fact that leiliana also mentioned the warden is missing! Please don't allow the protagonist of da3 to just go missing.
I would like to solve the mystery of the missing hawke and warden!!

Hawke and the Warden are imprisoned in one of those Kryptonian things that float round in space... awaiting the day when the plot can deal with the player choices they carry.

[Last Vizard]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

im with one of the other psoters, a Happy ending needs to be implemented, but you have to EARN it........kinda of like the Suikoden games.

I don't mind so much as not getting a happy ending, so much as getting an ending where I felt I accomplished something. ME3's ending was terrible to me because I felt I made things worse instead of better, and I felt that way until the EC came out.

So Bioware; please make DA3's ending more detailed on what I accomplished.

Indoctrination theory was better than the ending they came up with lol even had to change the explosion of the relays, had an argument with a mate about how each system would've been destroyed by the exploding relays...  then they come out and change the explosion hahaha I win Benny boy.

[Bfler]

The ending should reflect your previous choices in the game and and also consider different kind of players f.e those who want a good ending and  those who want a bad ending.

And don't listen to the silly and selfish statement of some players, that there has to be a certain type of ending, because the game demands it or that they couldn't enjoy their peferred ending if there is another one which prevents them from choosing it or which they don't like.

Modifié par Bfler, 24 septembre 2012 - 06:41 .

[HeavenStar]

http://dragonage.nex...ds/1839#content

This mod by Dahlialynn pretty much sums up what I want from an ending scene (for the good ending at least). It's an example of a mod that make the greatest ending scene that I've ever seen. It can be used in combination with the slideshows as well (in fact, I prefer to have both slideshows and cutscenes for ending).

So, please take a look, Bioware.

[Wynne]

iakus wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

Pelle6666 wrote...

After ME3? They won't make that mistake again.

Maybe, but I'm afraid after ME3 we might get saccharine, "perfect" endings, but still unsatisfying from many other point of views (cliffhangers, slideshows).

There's nothing wrong with "perfect" endings any more than there's anyhting wrong with tragic endings.  What's wrong is getting railroaded towards a particular ending. Particularly tragic ones, since they are already less popular (like what happened in ME3).  I myself am a fan of Earn Your Happy Ending.  Yes you can have one, but you have to work for it.

Over and over again DAO has been cited as as doing ending choices right.  It really does reflect your choices.  Happy or sad, it's up to you.

And there's nothing wrong with ending slides showing the long-term consdequences for your actions.

 
I like that trope, as well. I hate any kind of 100% good or bad ending; real life is almost always something in between. I like feeling as if my failures and successes are my responsibility. I like giving the villain a Reason You Suck Speech or Talking the Villain to Death/Breaking Them by Talking; listening to a Hannibal Lecture isn't as much fun if I can't give as good as I get. But I only want to do that if I'm playing a clever, truly heroic PC along the lines of Tyrion Lannister or a "brutishly clever but hotheaded because of his righteous fury" type like Harry Dresden, not if I'm playing a rigid stick-in-the-mud templar type.

I hate dumb or simply oblivious heroes. They are so boring to play. I prefer to play a Guile Hero every time. It may be harder to write, but it's a thousand times more rewarding to play than a character who is not as smart or on-task as I am--on my first playthrough. I'll gladly play a less intelligent character later on if the game makes it fun to be dumb, like Fallout or Planescape. But the more defined the personality, the less I like stupidity or obliviousness in them.

What I want more than anything is that I feel like I'm given a choice--Virmire in ME1 is a great example. Even if it hadn't had an effect on the entire series, it would've been a good one internally despite how frustrating it was because it made you feel the pressure. The Connor choice in DAO was interesting for similar reasons. There were even more possible outcomes, as well. 

I like it when I really feel like I probably don't have time to do both things because I'm in a desperate struggle, and I have to make a hard, painful choice. I like feeling like it was truly my responsibility, but that the circumstances were the thing in the way. 

It's a thing that DMs and STs have struggled with for ages. That fine balance between railroading and giving players a controlled choice. When the latter is done, and done well, the player does NOT feel either of these--

--I had to make an arbitrary and contrived choice which was meant to force some kind of feeling of drama but instead pulled me out of the story by un-skillfully reminding me that it was just that: a story, an inflexible tale that I'm not a real part of.

--The game decided for me that my character wouldn't pay attention to that crucially important detail, so all hell broke loose because I wasn't allowed to investigate. 

INSTEAD, the player feels something along these lines: 

--I was forced into a tough situation, I didn't know what I was walking into in time to make the optimal choice, but this feels like what my character would have done... to go back and try to change it would cheapen my experience. 

--There was a ticking time bomb (metaphorically speaking) and I don't think my character could've done anything more to stop it. Someone had to take the hit. 

--Things got hard, and I lost someone along the way. 

But if there's a way to save someone, I like it when it's based on my stats or abilities or choices in some way, far more so than if it's easy. Probably the best option is to make both saving and losing the person feel dramatic, so that if the loss happens, the player feels like it's a natural part of the game and it makes sense despite how it hurts.

gangly369 wrote...

In my experience, fantasy and/or science fiction stories always have bad endings, both in games and books. They just don't appeal to me because they usual have some type of ending in which everything always works out, some magic makes everything better, or none of the characters die. That's not to say every single story ends like this (Steven Erickson and his Malazan: Book of the Fallen series for example), but in general I have come to expect that most endings in this genre are gonna disappoint me in some fashion.
...
It's a given that they are gonna try and make a good ending so making this type of thread seems kind of pointless to me. If they have the time and resources, I'm sure that the ending will be something that a large majority of players will like (being optimistic on the BSN forums. Shocking I know)

 Pointless? No way am I going to assume that. If my feedback can help Bioware pinpoint the best methodology, then I'll gladly give it if there's even a chance of that. I'm not just gonna shrug and say, "I'm sure they'll try, so why bother giving an opinion or an example of what I like?" Of course they'll try. But maybe it'll be easier for them to implement if we reach some critical insights communally and can express them well enough to make some relevant light bulbs go on. 

All fiction is influenced by what came before it, most of the time to positive effect. And together, the community has read more fiction than the Bioware writers have read alone, most probably, because there are more of us than of them. I think we can be of use to them, even if it's just by reminding them of things they thought were cool when they were players. That's why I post, in the hopes that they can find some of the good stuff buried in the dross of our conversations.

Modifié par Wynne, 24 septembre 2012 - 08:13 .

[FDrage]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is the first that I've seen that some of BioWare's earlier games had poor endings too.

DA2s ending left me, for the first time in my gaming history, "confused". Not sad or annoyed or upset .. just confused (at least partially) . I stared at my PC screen and asked myself "what just happened there?" ...

[Allan Schumacher]

Note, I'm not considering DA2 to be among the "earlier games."

Although DevSin is correct that NWN did have a strange one too.

[Applepie_Svk]

And please no silly message on scroll after completing the game like the:

The inquisitor has become a legend by ending a templar-mage conflct or civil war in Orlais or whatever...
Now you can continue to build that legend through further gameplay of downloadable content...