15 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

As I recall (I can't find a link) one of the governing philosophies underlying the paraphrases in DA2 (and I believe this extended to ME, I am very unsure about this) is that the paraphrase and spoken line shoudn't share any words in common (or close to any).

I think this is part of the problem with the paraphrase. There words (and constructions) in English that don't have analogues (or if they do have analogues, those are ambiguous without more context).

Take - in the prologue of DA2 - Hawke's line post-ogre:

Paraphrase: He won't be alone.
Spoken Line: At least father will have company now.

The paraphrase is ambiguous. But if instead it was: "Father won't be alone".You would have, effectively, the same meaning.

The objection of hearing the same written line repeated might be true if all the words are repeated, but I don't see how adding some similar words causes the same problem.

[wsandista]

Yes, better wording(like the example you gave) would be clearer than the original(I thought it would be a reference to killing a bunch of hurlocks), but wouldn't be perfect for me. I think "intent" words would be much better.

[Xewaka]

The only way paraphrasing is going to work is if it becomes as close to the actual line as the UI will allow to fit, and that would defeat the purpose of avoiding subvocalization (which is their stated reason to use it in the first place).

[TJPags]

Xewaka wrote...

The only way paraphrasing is going to work is if it becomes as close to the actual line as the UI will allow to fit, and that would defeat the purpose of avoiding subvocalization (which is their stated reason to use it in the first place).

This.

Never played any ME, so I've only experienced this in DA2.  The paraphrasing there left quite a lot to be desired.  After a while, I was making choices based on the icon, not the paraphrase, since I'd given up trying to figure out what the game would say based on the paraphrase - WAY too often if came as a complete shock to me.

How hard is it really to summarize a full response properly?  These ARE professional writers, correct?

[fchopin]

A toggle for the full text, easy answer for those that wish to use it.

Toggle removes the icons and shows the text.

Modifié par fchopin, 24 septembre 2012 - 01:20 .

[Atakuma]

Xewaka wrote...

The only way paraphrasing is going to work is if it becomes as close to the actual line as the UI will allow to fit, and that would defeat the purpose of avoiding subvocalization (which is their stated reason to use it in the first place).

There is absolutely no need for that unless you are really dense or just really hung up on the exact wording of the dialogue.

[Quicksilver26]

fchopin wrote...

A toggle for the full text, easy answer for those that wish to use it.

Toggle removes the icons and shows the text.

this thumps up +10:wizard:

[Xewaka]

Atakuma wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
The only way paraphrasing is going to work is if it becomes as close to the actual line as the UI will allow to fit, and that would defeat the purpose of avoiding subvocalization (which is their stated reason to use it in the first place).

There is absolutely no need for that unless you are really dense or just really hung up on the exact wording of the dialogue.

Let me explain to you why exact wording matters. Let's go back to ME2 Horizon conversation. Imagine a Shepard that, for whatever reason, does not want to mention his implication with Cerberus to the VS. Now, try to navigate that conversation, with paraphrases alone, without having Shepard uttering the word "Cerberus" (the VS will bring it up). Is it possible? Yes. Does the dialogue UI allow for it? No, unless you like replaying a conversation more than a dozen times.
The exact wording matters, because the words carry the meaning of what your character is saying. And the words unspoken carry even more meaning.

Modifié par Xewaka, 24 septembre 2012 - 07:30 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Yes, need clearer responses, or at least kinda closer to what Hawke will really say. Sometimes I'm just "wut" with some responses.
Kinda like my agreessive Hawke verbally berating Carver when trying to talk to Bartrand at the start of Act 1.
Written; "Shut up!"
Spoken; "You work for me!"

At least do something simular; like "Makers Breath Carver, shut up!"

[nightscrawl]

Atakuma wrote...

There is absolutely no need for that unless you are really dense or just really hung up on the exact wording of the dialogue.

I happen to be one of those who wants to know exactly what my character will say. So it IS a need, for me. Bioware doesn't want to do it, that's fine, but until I can play the actual game with a paraphrase system that isn't completely inadequate, I will continue to desire the full line. Like most of these things, we'll just have to wait and see how it pans out. I've played DA2 a dozen times. Obviously the paraphrasing hasn't been a deterrent for me.

To be honest, I think paraphrases should only be used if the full line is longer than five or so words. If the option to select is "No" then my character should SAY "No," and not "Are you crazy? I'm not doing that!" or whatever.

[burning salaradile]

There have been good paraphrases, as in ME3 (I quickly learned to trust the wheel, as it usually said what I wanted to say) and less good and unhelpful, as in SWTOR, where I would constantly replay conversations trying to find what I actually wanted to say. I think I agree that the paraphrases should be closer to what is actually said.

[Mr Fixit]

Xewaka wrote...

Let's go back to ME2 Horizon conversation. Imagine a Shepard that, for whatever reason, does not want to mention his implication with Cerberus to the VS. Now, try to navigate that conversation, with paraphrases alone, without having Shepard uttering the word "Cerberus" (the VS will bring it up). Is it possible? Yes. Does the dialogue UI allow for it? No, unless you like replaying a conversation more than a dozen times.
The exact wording matters, because the words carry the meaning of what your character is saying. And the words unspoken carry even more meaning.

True that.

I have several big problems with paraphrases, at least the way they were implemented in DA2. You'll have to forgive me for not remembering the exact occasions in the game when these things happen, but they're there. So, in the words of Witcher's Siegfried:

Primo, it wasn't clear what type of sentence Hawke/Sheprad would say - paraphrase shows an interrogative sentence, yet our character makes a declarative sentence, or vice verca. A similar situation with exclamatory sentences. All to often I thought a simple question followed, when suddenly my character goes on a rant expressing opinions. It's not even important whether my character shares that opinion, the point is, it shouldn't even be expressed unless *I* want it.

Secundo, it makes nuanced speech impossible. There are situations where exact wording is critical, where it's critical certain words, or certain types of words, are either included or omitted. As in above example, you need to know if your character mentiones Cerberus. I can imagine a bunch of similar examples that are bound to pop up in any game, for instance in romantic conversations. Those are rather intimate by nature, and I'd rather know exactly what I'm going to say. Details matter. They bring both PC and NPCs to life. I need my pretty little details, thank you very much.

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 24 septembre 2012 - 08:12 .

[Dutchess]

Clearer paraphrasing would be most welcome. In the conversation with Leandra about the lost sibling, Leandra is blaming herself. The paraphrasing of the direct response was: "stop it!" and I interpreted that as saying to Leandra that she should stop blaming herself. Instead I get angry Hawke saying: "I don't want to dwell on the past." Ugh. Nice, b*tch.

[Wolfspawn]

NAH. Make it so like something like this could happen.

PARAPHRASE : Thanks.
INQUISITOR : **** YOU! **** YOU AND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY!

[RedWulfi]

I have mixed feelings on it.
I played humor Hawke so what came out of her mouth made me giggle like crazy.
Like the situation with the viscount.
I chose: Look on the bright side
and said: Well it can't get any worse. It's pretty late, (Something like that)
I loved it. But then there was the auto dialog. When confronting Leanndra's death hawke wasn't at all worried because I had made her sarcastic. "Mother always knew me best" not at all concerned that her mother is now a walking corpse.