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[Auintus]

 Was just looking over some things and realized something.
A few decisions were imported from DAO to DA2, yet had no bearing on, well, anything. Obviously they will be used later, but one in particular concerns me.

Cailan's corpse burned
Cailan's corpse fed to wolves
Cailan's corpse left to darkspawn

What the hell could they do with that? I thought it was just for approval points, but it has been imported. Why?

[Vandicus]

Cailan peacefully goes to the Maker(or wherever dead people go)
Wolves that eat king gain kingly powers and become lords of all other wolves
Darkspawn set up Cailan's body to be possessed by demon and make it their new king/archdemon.

[Auintus]

I don't think demons and darkspawn mix well. Avernus implied as much anyway.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

I don't think demons and darkspawn mix well. Avernus implied as much anyway.

Scratch that then. Instead the darkspawn bring his body with them when they wake up Razikale. Razikale uses his magic powers to make Cailan into some sort've revenant. Revenant Cailan rides atop Razikale as they lead the armies of the darkspawn to victory.

[KiwiQuiche]

Who's Cailan?

[Vandicus]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Who's Cailan?

*badum tish

King of Fereldan, dies at Ostagar. Sort've a nice chap.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Who's Cailan?

*badum tish

King of Fereldan, dies at Ostagar. Sort've a nice chap.

I always agreed with Loghain here. He's nice enough, but quite childish.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Who's Cailan?

*badum tish

King of Fereldan, dies at Ostagar. Sort've a nice chap.

I always agreed with Loghain here. He's nice enough, but quite childish.

I can totally see trying to replace the guy for the good of the kingdom. Loghain has a horrible sense of timing though, couldn't have possibly chosen a worse time to do this(I mean Blights only happen every few hundred years!). Regrettably his character comes off as far more inept in the game than in the books. 

[TJPags]

The most important data to import - and get RIGHT - is very simple: who's alive, who's dead.

I'm really tired of seeing dead people come back. . . .

[Auintus]

TJPags wrote...

The most important data to import - and get RIGHT - is very simple: who's alive, who's dead.

I'm really tired of seeing dead people come back. . . .

He's dead no matter what. I just want to know why your treatment of his corpse matters.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

TJPags wrote...

The most important data to import - and get RIGHT - is very simple: who's alive, who's dead.

I'm really tired of seeing dead people come back. . . .

He's dead no matter what. I just want to know why your treatment of his corpse matters.

More seriously if we ever get a scene with the Warden talking to someone about it, it may be mentioned in the conversation. A lot of decisions don't really have a huge impact but change dialogue. Otherwise, I can't really think of why it would matter.

[TJPags]

Auintus wrote...

TJPags wrote...

The most important data to import - and get RIGHT - is very simple: who's alive, who's dead.

I'm really tired of seeing dead people come back. . . .

He's dead no matter what. I just want to know why your treatment of his corpse matters.

He's only dead until a Fade spirit - or a giant mountain of lyrium - reanimates his corpse.

[Allan Schumacher]

I remember seeing those and chuckling as well.

Was like tied to stuff that was ultimately cut.

[Vandicus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I remember seeing those and chuckling as well.

Was like tied to stuff that was ultimately cut.

No chance of a what-if campaign where Evil Cailan rides on an Archdemon and conquers Thedas then?

Smashing people in the darkspawn campaign was fun. 

[Auintus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I remember seeing those and chuckling as well.

Was like tied to stuff that was ultimately cut.

So I finally get something official on one of my topics and what he tells me is that my speculation is probably pointless? That's...not funny at all.
Shame really.

[MorningBird]

On a similar note, I'm really hoping that the flagging/import issues in DA2 get resolved. XD  Really bombed when Nathaniel was considered dead in my game... also when my Warden's romance with Zevran went ignored.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I remember seeing those and chuckling as well.

Was like tied to stuff that was ultimately cut.

So I finally get something official on one of my topics and what he tells me is that my speculation is probably pointless? That's...not funny at all.
Shame really.

At least its not raining.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I remember seeing those and chuckling as well.

Was like tied to stuff that was ultimately cut.

So I finally get something official on one of my topics and what he tells me is that my speculation is probably pointless? That's...not funny at all.
Shame really.

At least its not raining.

It is here.

[TEWR]

Vandicus wrote...

I can totally see trying to replace the guy for the good of the kingdom. Loghain has a horrible sense of timing though, couldn't have possibly chosen a worse time to do this(I mean Blights only happen every few hundred years!). Regrettably his character comes off as far more inept in the game than in the books

Well, he didn't leave Cailan to die because he actually wanted the throne. It was a tactical retreat rather then any sort of political thing. Loghain didn't want the throne, but felt he had to be in the throne during the Blight in order to save the country.

He loved Cailan as a son, but found him to be a fool of a king. He was deeply hurt by the decision he was forced to make that resulted in his son-in-law -- Maric's child -- dying at the hands of the Darkspawn, even if Cailan was to blame for it to begin with.

Also, I don't think Loghain's ever been much of a politician. He's always sucked in that regard.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2012 - 03:26 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Auintus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I remember seeing those and chuckling as well.

Was like tied to stuff that was ultimately cut.

So I finally get something official on one of my topics and what he tells me is that my speculation is probably pointless? That's...not funny at all.
Shame really.

Meh, I'm just guessing myself.  Although I evidently missed that this was more of a light hearted thread to throw around fun speculations.  My bad!

While I worked on the import *system* I don't know all the places that they were used.  There's actually a quite a lot of stuff that does get imported that goes beyond just plot flag stuff too, IIRC.

[Vandicus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I can totally see trying to replace the guy for the good of the kingdom. Loghain has a horrible sense of timing though, couldn't have possibly chosen a worse time to do this(I mean Blights only happen every few hundred years!). Regrettably his character comes off as far more inept in the game than in the books

Well, he didn't leave Cailan to die because he actually wanted the throne. It was a tactical retreat rather then any sort of political thing. Loghain didn't want the throne, but felt he had to be in the throne during the Blight in order to save the country.

He loved Cailan as a son, but found him to be a fool of a king. He was deeply hurt by the decision he was forced to make that resulted in his son-in-law -- Maric's child -- dying at the hands of the Darkspawn, even if Cailan was to blame for it to begin with.

Yes, I understand Loghain did not do this for selfish reasons, he did it because of his promise to Maric. I disagree about the tactical retreat part and the part about Loghain being particularly concerned about the Blight. The strategy they had for that battle was perfectly solid(simple but effective flanking maneuver to crush the darkspawn against a fortified position) and we aren't really given solid evidence to indicate that they would've lost had the other half of the army participated. 

Loghain's rejection of assistance from the Orlesian Grey Wardens and push for rejection of the help of the Fereldan Wardens shows that his actions are colored strongly by his emotions. Which I think is unfortunate. His takeover as well seems to be a spur of the moment thing, there was no way for him to know in advance that the darkspawn horde would even be able to take on Cailan's half of the army. Loghain does not properly solidify support amongst the nobles(something that would be difficult for him as a result of his behavior in the novels). If Anora had married Cailan before Cailan's death that would've resulted in a much more competent and amenable rulership figure, with a legitimate claim to power, and one probably willing to let Loghain manage the army better. Instead Loghain made it look like he was simply trying to seize power. Abandoning the king and then declaring oneself ruler does not look good. No wonder the country became embroiled in civil war.

Its also quite apparent that Loghain views the Orlesians as the most serious threat, even with a Blight going on. As he viewed Cailan incompetent, it would've made sense to off him well before now in order to be prepared for an Orlesian invasion.

Loghain has a cool character archetype, and acts according to it in the novels, but makes quite a few poor decisions in Origins that seemingly clash with his novelized self.

[Auintus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I remember seeing those and chuckling as well.

Was like tied to stuff that was ultimately cut.

So I finally get something official on one of my topics and what he tells me is that my speculation is probably pointless? That's...not funny at all.
Shame really.

Meh, I'm just guessing myself.  Although I evidently missed that this was more of a light hearted thread to throw around fun speculations.  My bad!

Meh, I wanted an answer. This speculation is my answer. It's not like I'd get anything definitive anyway, unless someone official comes in and says "Oh, that? It affected this." I just wanted ideas.
Although your insight is appreciated, I can't help but think that someone's going to do something with it later.

Modifié par Auintus, 24 septembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I remember seeing those and chuckling as well.

Was like tied to stuff that was ultimately cut.

So I finally get something official on one of my topics and what he tells me is that my speculation is probably pointless? That's...not funny at all.
Shame really.

Meh, I'm just guessing myself.  Although I evidently missed that this was more of a light hearted thread to throw around fun speculations.  My bad!

Meh, I wanted an answer. This speculation is my answer. It's not like I'd get anything definitive anyway, unless someone official comes in and says "Oh, that? It affected this." I just wanted ideas.
Although your insight is appreciated, I can't help but think that someone's going to do something with it later.

Butterfly Effect.

In Dragon Age 6 this determines whether or not the world is destroyed.

[Auintus]

Vandicus wrote...

Butterfly Effect.

In Dragon Age 6 this determines whether or not the world is destroyed.

...It all makes sense now. The blood writing on the walls, the hushed whispers in empty rooms, it all led to this. The treatment of a single corpse shall set events in motion that shall be the world's salvation, or its destruction.

Modifié par Auintus, 24 septembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[TEWR]

[quote]Vandicus wrote...

Yes, I understand Loghain did not do this for selfish reasons, he did it because of his promise to Maric. I disagree about the tactical retreat part and the part about Loghain being particularly concerned about the Blight.[/quote]

Well, it was a tactical retreat. Word of God -- and in-game evidence -- clearly identifies this.

As for him being concerned about the Blight? He was concerned about the Darkspawn, that much cannot be disputed. He just never believed it was a real Blight.  

[quote]
The strategy they had for that battle was perfectly solid(simple but effective flanking maneuver to crush the darkspawn against a fortified position) [/quote]

The Hammer&Anvil, yes. It was a good strategy and would've worked, had the Darkspawn numbers not been so numerous that the plan wouldn't have worked and had Cailan not trashed the strategy put forth. I address that below.


[quote]
and we aren't really given solid evidence to indicate that they would've lost had the other half of the army participated. [/quote]

Actually, we are. I'll post my entire defense of Loghain at the bottom of this post, as I don't want to end up mixing things together. For reference though, I'll post the important images of how the battle would've played out.



All of that is the Darkspawn army.



This is what would've happened, had Loghain charged.

[quote]
Loghain's rejection of assistance from the Orlesian Grey Wardens and push for rejection of the help of the Fereldan Wardens shows that his actions are colored strongly by his emotions. Which I think is unfortunate.[/quote]

There are reasons for that. I will also address this in the bottom of my post. 

[quote]
 Loghain does not properly solidify support amongst the nobles(something that would be difficult for him as a result of his behavior in the novels)[/quote]

Of course. Again, he's not a good politician. He could've attempted to make the politically sound move at Ostagar -- sending some men to try and rescue Cailan -- and bring it up at the Landsmeet, so as to better increase his chances of them unifying under his banner. Whether his men would've succeeded or not is irrelevant to what he could've attempted to do.

But again, he's not a good politician. Never has been and probably never will be.

[quote]
. If Anora had married Cailan before Cailan's death that would've resulted in a much more competent and amenable rulership figure, with a legitimate claim to power, and one probably willing to let Loghain manage the army better.[/quote]

Do you mean immediately before? Because the two of them were married for five years. 

[quote]
Instead Loghain made it look like he was simply trying to seize power. Abandoning the king and then declaring oneself ruler does not look good. No wonder the country became embroiled in civil war.[/quote]

Again, Loghain's a crappy politician. That's just who he is.

[quote]
Its also quite apparent that Loghain views the Orlesians as the most serious threat, even with a Blight going on. As he viewed Cailan incompetent, it would've made sense to off him well before now in order to be prepared for an Orlesian invasion.[/quote]

His paranoia and fear of them is justified though, based on history. Not that he had his priorities straight, but you can seriously empathize with what he was feeling and what he wanted to do.

Now, for my rant that defends the Hero of River Dane. Brace yourself, an epic wall of text is coming.

============================================================================


[quote]Loghain was not well written. His Warden recruitment at the end was IMHO, an attempt to fix the cheesy cartoony dark villain he was until the landsmeet.

And he flips 180 degrees. Turns noble, cares about his daughter and the warden.. Very forced and not well written also. But no one can say he was pure evil because he regrets stuff and offers his life.[/quote]

He always cared about Anora. That whole idea that Loghain would've killed his daughter? Complete BS. Howe approached Loghain with the idea, but Loghain refused to do such a thing -- something he'll tell you if you spare him.

That wouldn't have stopped Howe from doing such a thing though, because Howe is the very definition of Complete Monster. He does things For the Evulz.



[quote]
Nope, not buying.

FFS he pratically raised Caillan and left him to die. A good general could have left the battle when he saw their forces outnumbered,[/quote]

That's what he did. 

You could argue that he should've attempted to save Cailan with a contingent of men ordered to do so -- whether they would succeed is irrelevant, though given how quickly he dies by Ogre and I'm assuming the mass of Darkspawn between Cailan and Loghain he couldn't have been saved -- but he did order a tactical withdrawal from the battlefield when it became apparent that they were outnumbered.

And Cailan's death was his own doing. Cailan was a spoiled brat, wanting to play war and fascinated with glory -- be it glory he wanted or the glory of others in legends.

Had Loghain attempted to rescue Cailan and failed, that would've been a politically sound move to try and get Ferelden to unify under his banner, as he did attempt to save their king.

But no one has ever called Loghain a brilliant politician. He isn't.
 


[quote]
but the same good general would not poison the leader of the largest surviving army, refused help and tried to kill the 2 people who could help again the large darkspawn horde he saw with his own 2 eyes.

Writters dropped the ball on Loghain and then tried a Hail Mary saving pass. Didn't save it for me
[/quote]

Yea, no they didn't.

Let's look at if from his perspective, as opposed to the "OMG He's so EVUL!!!" one he's unfortunately painted with all too often.

Eamon was a threat to the nation's well-being after Loghain was forced to make a judgement call at Ostagar. We know that Eamon was poisoned after Ostagar, as Loghain has been with the King at the fortress for the entire time -- something Duncan states in the HN and Mage Origins.

Eamon would've been clouded by his relationship to Cailan and more then likely would've failed to see the actual necessity of the withdrawal. He would've instigated a civil war I'm willing to bet. Loghain didn't want this to happen. So he tasked Jowan -- whom he met in Denerim, as Jowan states -- to go to Redcliffe to teach Connor about magic and administer the poison to Eamon, but this poison was only supposed to render Eamon comatose.

Nothing more. If Eamon's condition worsened to the point of death, Berwick would've reported to someone in Loghain's cadre saying such, and Loghain would send the antidote.

Now, of course, Connor went to the Desire Demon pleading for Eamon to be saved. He didn't know Eamon wouldn't have died -- or that it was an unlikely scenario, anyway -- and so that's why he did so. And the demon did keep Eamon alive. She just kept his state of being from worsening.

Also, I very much doubt Eamon is the leader of the largest surviving army. That'd technically fall to either Loghain himself -- commanding the Teyrnir of Gwaren, as opposed to Eamon's Arling -- or Rendon Howe -- who by the time of the Battle at Ostagar, has claimed Highever and Denerim along with his already claimed Arling of Amaranthine.

As for the Wardens? Again, let's look at it from his perspective.

Here is a man who, for all his time at Ostagar, has not been told just how the Wardens know it's a Blight, other then vague comments where they say they "can feel it". While we the players know for a fact the Wardens are necessary, let's not forget that Loghain doesn't. We know the intricacies of the Joining. He doesn't. Not during Ostagar, anyway.

Duncan failed to tell Cailan or Loghain about these Warden secrets, which may have convinced Loghain that they're truly necessary. Had he known that they were linked to the Darkspawn hive-mind and could actually sense the Archdemon -- specifically, not those vague comments Alistair says Duncan told them -- then he would've realized "These guys are necessary."

All he had to go on were vague notions that they're necessary and tales about their prowess in battle. For all he knew, they were no different then the regular soldier, with only one thing distinguishing the Wardens from a soldier: they just fight Darkspawn all the time.

That could've been the extent of it as far as he knew.

Now, I'll say for the record that I personally find the army to bear the weight of the blame, but the Wardens aren't without blame either. I give the army 60% of the blame, at most. If not 60%, I often split it evenly, as Duncan's actions prior to Ostagar show that he should've been pressed by the army as to the validity of the claims to the nature of the Blight -- his reason for going to Orzammar is to find evidence of the Archdemon.

But then again, the Wardens are supposed to do whatever it takes to defeat the Blights. One would think this would include lying about finding evidence on the Archdemon to make people believe it's a Blight and telling the heads of state and generals about Warden secrets.

But let's also examine Cailan. Here is a child trapped in a man's body who is fascinated with war so much he wants glory for himself. He finds strategy sessions boring, wants to be the one to kill the Archdemon with his father's blade, and goes on and on about glory.

During the battle, he ruins the plan Loghain put forth -- the Hammer&Anvil strategy -- during the session. Instead of having the men in the back -- maybe a couple of rows -- firing constant volleys of arrows into the Darkspawn ranks, he has them fire only one volley. 

Instead of keeping the Mabari hounds alongside his soldiers, he sends them out as little more then fodder troops where they kill, at most, 1-2 Darkspawn each before dying.

Instead of having the majority of his forces holding the line with the walls of Ostagar protecting their left and right flanks, he orders all of his troops to charge out into the open, where they're then besieged by the Darkspawn on all sides.

While it's extremely unlikely that Ostagar could've been won using what forces they had there, Cailan's idiocy doomed them from the start.

And during the strategy session, the Wardens failed to speak up about their necessity or offering any real insight into how the battle could play out.

Now, let's jump to what happens in the Tower of Ishal.

We the players are tasked with the duty of lighting the signal fire so that Loghain's men will know when to charge. The opportune moment for such a thing was when all the Darkspawn were in the valley, so that Loghain's men could corral the Darkspawn and begin to take them down. I refer you to KnightofPhoenix's blog images on the subject of Ostagar.



Now, we the players -- as well as Alistair, the Warden, the Mabari, a Mage, and a Soldier in the Tower -- know that the signal was delayed due to the Darkspawn invading the Tower. I'll tackle how this is Bioware's fault on being contradictory in their writing later.

As Alistair himself notes, the signal was surely delayed too much due to the Darkspawn.

Loghain however, did not know the Darkspawn had delayed the signal fire. Because of how late it comes -- and how fractured the army is now -- he believes that the Wardens deliberately delayed the signal fire so as to weaken Ferelden's national stability -- what with the King dying, and in his mind them hoping he'd lead his men to death too.

Because if that happened, Ferelden would've had no choice but to rely on Orlesian assistance during the Blight, which would be a repeat of what they've done in Blights past.

In his mind, the Wardens are helping the Orlesians, as they've done in the past. In Blights past, the Orlesians used the Blights as a reason for "aiding" nations too weakened by the Darkspawn to stand on their own, and then after the Blight was ended they made it a point to never leave.

For more insight on that, see the history of Nevarra, the Free Marches, and IIRC the Anderfels.

As such, he truly believed the delay of the signal fire was done on purpose by the Wardens to weaken Ferelden and give Orlais the moment to "aid" the nation. Orlais itself has used the Wardens and the Blights to their advantage by helping further their expansionist policies, of which Empress Celene I was reputed to be an expansionist herself in Origins -- changed to being a peaceloving monarch in DAII.

So let's recap, shall we?

1) He knows little about why the Order is necessary.
2) Cailan believed that the presence of the Wardens was enough to win the battle. In truth, it wasn't, and Ostagar using Loghain's strategy -- or even what forces they did have there -- was unwinnable. This isn't to say Ostagar couldn't have been won had more forces been present and the place better fortified. I'm certain Ostagar could've been won, had things been different.
3) The Wardens did not speak up on anything that could help fight the Darkspawn.
4) Cailan ruined the battle plan.
5) The signal fire was delayed to the point of being too late -- and not accurate, as Darkspawn were still pouring out of the Wilds. For what reason, Loghain didn't know. But based on history, he had strong inclinations as to why it was so. He was wrong, but he didn't know the real reason.
6) Orlais has a history of using the Wardens and the Blights as grounds to further their expansionist policies, something Loghain brings up at the first Landsmeet.

From all of this alone, his opinions of the Wardens is not very high. He can only view them as Orlesian tools, because that's all the evidence has shown itself to be for him. He didn't have all the facts, but from what he did know it was not painted very well in the Wardens' favor.

Let's not forget the rebellion that happened in centuries past by Sophia Dryden -- a justified rebellion, but the truth was never publicly known. Let's also not forget that what happens in The Calling further adds fuel to the fires of why Loghain didn't trust the Wardens.

===========================================================================

Now, I said I'd tackle the whole Tower of Ishal failure on Bioware's part. This stems from them failing to properly keep their own character -- Loghain -- consistent with how he's portrayed.

He became Teyrn of Gwaren in 9:11 Dragon, so he's been the ruling lord of that area for 19 years. His own codex states that he's a man who wishes to know where his borders end and how best to defend them.

And yet Bioware made it a point to have Loghain completely in the dark about Ostagar's structure. This is a blatant failure of their writing, as David Gaider -- the man who wrote Loghain, IIRC -- failed to keep Loghain consistent.

Then, when we find out about the Tower's lower levels, we find that Loghain's first action was to... explore them? On the eve of a major battle? This is a failure from a military strategy point of view as well as writing, because while you should know the layout of a fortress Loghain should've already known all of this in the 19 years he was Teyrn of Gwaren and general of Ferelden, the man whose strategies kicked the Orlesians out of the nation.

But because he didn't know, we're supposed to be able to believe that the more sensible course of action when Darkspawn are at your heels in the Wilds is to explore these lower caverns? Seriously? NO. It's to immediately seal them up, preferably in such a way that they're unusable by the Darkspawn as it's pretty evident that these caverns will lead to the Wilds -- indeed, they lead into the very valley Cailan was in.

And before anyone goes "So doesn't this mean he deliberately left the Tower open to invasion and used the Darkspawn to justify leaving Cailan", no it doesn't. Gaider has said that Loghain didn't know about the Tower being invaded by Darkspawn nor did he plan such a thing. It was an unexpected thing.

The failure here being that the people that wrote the Ostagar scenario -- not the Cailan moment, but the Tower of Ishal thing and Loghain's ignorance on the entire fortress -- is a critical failure in military warfare knowledge and consistent writing of Loghain Mac Tir.

As such, the blame falls on Bioware.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2012 - 04:10 .