50 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

I couldn't find my DAO saves so I just created a file called oppositeofbrockololly.txt and imported it into DA2. Instead of the game starting all I got was a cinematic of Morrigan laughing. Is that working as intended?

[Vandicus]

His actions make a lot more sense to me with your explanation of how his paranoia about Orlais affected the battle strategy. Thing is that on the surface its not clearly visible. Your explanation does make the tie-in clear, but it should've been more obvious to the player. We're never even given the least impression in the game that Loghain is extremely paranoid about the Orlesians(we can construe a distrust of foreigners, or Orlesians in particular, but this is somewhat masked by his distrust for the Fereldan wardens).

Also annoyingly, the game implies that there is internal treachery regarding the signal tower, which is reinforced by Loghain's immediate decision to retreat after the fire being lit(implies that he didn't want his soldiers to see the fire lit). Now I know from a metagame perspective this is unlikely because darkspawn simply don't do that and that Loghain's character from the novels doesn't really match up with this, but it further adds to the incidental portrayal of Loghain as a clear cut villain.

Without assistance from the novels or very in depth study of the game, Loghain's portrayal makes him seem like a clear cut villain, lacking the same depth he would have otherwise. Suffice it to say that his actions seem much more comprehensible and consistent now, but I'm still disappointed with his portrayal.

I have one last question(well series of related questions) about the battle.

How does Loghain know the situation on the front lines between Cailan and the darkspawn? If he does know, why didn't he move in at what he judged to be an appropriate time rather than waiting for an unnecessary signal fire? If he didn't know, how was he to know that the fight was going badly for Cailan's forces, and that the signal fire was not simply delayed because of the darkspawn rear moving slower than expected? His paranoia can be at work there, but it would appear that he jumped to a conclusion

[upsettingshorts]

Vandicus wrote...

Also annoyingly, the game implies that there is internal treachery regarding the signal tower, which is reinforced by Loghain's immediate decision to retreat after the fire being lit(implies that he didn't want his soldiers to see the fire lit). 

He does this because it is more dramatic.

If you, as the player, are aware of Loghain's retreat before lighting the signal...  why bother continuing to fight to the top?  Your options at that point would be to run away to the center of battle (where you will die) or run away to a different location (where you will also probably die.)  You know, or have the Warden continue to their objective despite your knowledge that it's pointless, which isn't much fun.  The plot demands that you be rescued by Flemeth anyway, so it doesn't matter, and the only thing that will have changed from the original timing is that the fight is less memorable.

If you, as the player, are not aware of Loghain's retreat until after you've succeeded in your mission to call him to action, you get to experience the triumph of succeeding in your goals.  Furthermore by ignoring your signal, he's compounded his betrayal of the Wardens/Ferelden by personally betraying you, the Warden, and on a meta-level, you the player.  Congratulations, you now have a personal stake.

That's why he retreats after the beacon is lit.  Trying to determine his ingame reasoning is... well, masturbatory fanwank that will probably get nowhere conclusive.  Which is fun, sure, but I wouldn't expect such a discussion to nail down an answer.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 septembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[Vandicus]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Also annoyingly, the game implies that there is internal treachery regarding the signal tower, which is reinforced by Loghain's immediate decision to retreat after the fire being lit(implies that he didn't want his soldiers to see the fire lit). 

He does this because it is more dramatic.

I'm just miffed at how the game almost goes out of its way to make ourselves think that Loghain is a straightforward villain type character. In game we're given pretty much nothing to indicate otherwise.

[upsettingshorts]

Vandicus wrote...

I'm just miffed at how the game almost goes out of its way to make ourselves think that Loghain is a straightforward villain type character. In game we're given pretty much nothing to indicate otherwise.

The strongest evidence is hidden in a DLC (Return to Ostagar, which transfers some of the dirt on Loghain to Eamon and Cailan) and in conversing with the hidden companion himself, Loghain. 

But in the vanilla game it's pretty straightforward, and much worse for human nobles as the guy who betrayed and murdered your family ends up as his second-in-command.

Edit:  That said, I don't think ex post facto "graying" of someone who originally came off as a standard villain is a bad idea, quite the opposite:  It adds depth, as well as changes perceptions upon rewatching/replaying/reconsidering.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 septembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[upsettingshorts]

On that note, I would love to see - in DA3 - a scene where Danarius is at home with a sold-back mind-wiped Fenris. He'd have a really nice little house to live in with a lot of straw, big bowls of food and water, a pile of his favorite toys, a yard to run around in, and oh let's not forget; frequent generous belly rubs. He's a good boy.

That would do a lot to humanize Danarius.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 septembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[Warden661]

@The Ethereal Writer Redux

Love the rant and I'll agree with you on a couple of points:

1. Loghain had no idea that the tower was invaded by darkspawn.
2. He does not beleive that the Wardens are needed to end the Blight because of the ignorance that he, as well as pretty much everyone who isn't a Grey Warden, has of the Order and their secrets.

I will not agree that his retreat was a tactical one. Or, at least, not in the way that you described.

Here is what we can guarentee about Loghain:
1. He hates Orlais with a passion
2, He thinks Cailan is a foolish young man.

Now we know that Cailan thought that the quarell between Fereldan and Orlais was a thing of the past. He was even planning on divorcing Anora and marrying the Empress (evidence from a string of codex pages from the Return to Ostagar DLC).

Loghain probably didn't know of Marics secret betrothel to the Empress but he did know that Maric was friendly with the Orlesians. He, obviously, didn't like the thought of the army of a nation that he fought so hard to expell from his homeland was coming back. Loghain will never veiw Orlais as friends, only as the people who occupied and ruled over Fereldan with an iron fist for years.

So, with that all said, I beleive Loghain left Maric to die on purpose. Why? So he wouldn't let Orlesian forces in. Loghain beleived that once Orlesian troops were inside the Fereldan borders again they would try to take back Fereldan. He even asks the Warden how he/she would let Orlais take back Fereldan at the landsmeet.

So his retreat was tactical in a way but I do not beleive he left because he thought he was going to lose the battle. I think he left because he wanted to. He did think that the darkspawn were a threat but he beleived that Orlais was a bigger one. His prejudices of Orlais and it's people are deep and that clouded his judgement. He left Cailan to die because he thought he was a liability towards Freledan's saftey against Orlais.

You actually did say something about this in your long post, towards the end, but I think that this is the absolute reason why he left the battle. Not because he thought he was going to lose to the darkspawn.

Modifié par BoBear, 24 septembre 2012 - 05:15 .

[TEWR]

we can construe a distrust of foreigners, or Orlesians in particular, but this is somewhat masked by his distrust for the Fereldan wardens).

It's just Orlesians he hates, not foreigners in general. We know from DAII's Lord Harimann that Free Marcher soldiers fought in the Blight, so either they were some troops sent after the Landsmeet and Ferelden pulled a Gondor Calls For Aid or Loghain accepted them with open arms because:

1) They're from Kirkwall, who fought against the Orlesians centuries ago, something he did as well
2) They're just not Orlesian.

He also distrusts the Fereldan Wardens because, strictly speaking, most of them are Orlesian in nationality. Duncan is Fereldan IIRC, but he's also from the Orlesian group. And he also brings up his belief that the Orlesians bought the loyalty of the Fereldan Warden.

His distrust of the Fereldan Wardens has a lot to do with most of them originating from Orlais.

Also annoyingly, the game implies that there is internal treachery regarding the signal tower, which is reinforced by Loghain's immediate decision to retreat after the fire being lit(implies that he didn't want his soldiers to see the fire lit). Now I know from a metagame perspective this is unlikely because darkspawn simply don't do that and that Loghain's character from the novels doesn't really match up with this, but it further adds to the incidental portrayal of Loghain as a clear cut villain.

The "Darkspawn knew the plan" thing, I take it? If so, then I don't know why that was there, as how could the Darkspawn know of the plan? Do they have access to what goes through the Wardens' minds just as the Wardens' have in regards to the hive mind of the Darkspawn?

Because we know through WoG that Loghain wasn't in cahoots with them, so if they did indeed know, then how did they know? Did the Archdemon survey the battle and say "Hmm... a tower. They'll probably use it. GET THEM!!"

How does Loghain know the situation on the front lines between Cailan and the darkspawn? If he does know, why didn't he move in at what he judged to be an appropriate time rather than waiting for an unnecessary signal fire?

He could see parts of the battlefield, but didn't have enough of a view to know when to make the charge. He could see enough, however, to know that Darkspawn were still pouring out and the army was fracturing under Cailan's command.

So I'd say that what he was seeing was the army fighting and seeing more and more Darkspawn appear, as opposed to a view of the Darkspawn coming out of the field.

I'll admit, perhaps his portrayal as it was meant to be isn't well done, but the pieces are certainly all there. It's just a matter of connecting the dots.

[Warden661]

On another quick note: Why would the Wardens give out there secrets their connection to the darkspawn? How many people would agree to join if they knew that they had to drink darkspawn blood in a joinning ritual. A ritual that could kill them right on the spot if their bodies arn't able to deal with the taint in that manner. Futher more why would anybody willing subdue themselves to nightmares of darkspawn and the archdemon?

I'm sure there would be a handfull of noble sould who go willingly but not many. And yeas the Wardens have the right of conscription but i assume that some people would just fight the Wardens in the hopes that they could get away from drinking the taint.

I think it's better to keep the Wardens' secrets secret. Let the peoples' view of the Wardens be guided by tails of bravery and valor. A lot more forces to fight the darkspawn that way.

[TEWR]

I will not agree that his retreat was a tactical one. Or, at least, not in the way that you described.

WoG says it was tactical in the way I described, actually. As does Loghain's own statements on it, during and after the Landsmeet -- specifically to the King's Guard in Bann Loren's lands, if you choose the right option.

That's not to say your interpretation might not have factored into it. I'm sure it must've. But it wasn't the primary reason for it, as he'll state in conversations throughout the game and with Wynne.

On another quick note: Why would the Wardens give out there secrets their connection to the darkspawn? How many people would agree to join if they knew that they had to drink darkspawn blood in a joinning ritual. A ritual that could kill them right on the spot if their bodies arn't able to deal with the taint in that manner. Futher more why would anybody willing subdue themselves to nightmares of darkspawn and the archdemon?

To address this, I'm going to speak in general and I'm not directing what I'm about to say at you, though it is addressing it (Department of Redundancy Department)

There's a common misinterpretation of what I stated that usually happens. People believe that by telling the Head of State (Cailan) and the General of the Army (Loghain) in a confidential meeting how the Wardens are linked to the Darkspawn hive-mind or drink their blood to gain an edge over them that the Wardens would be blabbing their secrets to every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

That's not the case. It would be, as I said, a strictly private meeting between the three parties so as to coordinate their efforts against the Blight.

And all this said, the Warden secrets get out after Ostagar anyway. Anora knows about them, Mhairi knows about them. Varel, Garavel, and others know about them.

Pretty much a crapton of people know now that the Wardens drink Darkspawn blood, and Varel -- a non-Warden -- is the one making the potent brew.

And yet, their recruitment effort hasn't gone down. It's remained the same, if not having increased as a result.

And even if they don't tell them about how they engage in blood magic -- the Joining -- they could always just lie and say "Yes, we found evidence of the Archdemon in the Deep Roads earlier. He's real." to convince people of the threat.

The Wardens say they'll do anything to defeat the Blights. Seems that's not true, now is it?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2012 - 05:45 .

[Warden661]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Duncan is Fereldan IIRC


[/qoute]

I think he is Antivan/Fereldan. Also he was born in Fereldan but grew up in Orlais. IIRC

Modifié par BoBear, 24 septembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[TEWR]

edit: see my above post. My comp is lagging tonight.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[TEWR]

I think he is Antivan/Fereldan. Also he was born in Fereldan but grew up in Orlais. IIRC

Ah yes, I remember that he has a very... worldly heritage.

[Wrathion]

BoBear wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Duncan is Fereldan IIRC

I think he is Antivan/Fereldan. Also he was born in Fereldan but grew up in Orlais. IIRC

He's Rivaini/Fereldan actually.

[Warden661]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

On another quick note: Why would the Wardens give out there secrets their connection to the darkspawn? How many people would agree to join if they knew that they had to drink darkspawn blood in a joinning ritual. A ritual that could kill them right on the spot if their bodies arn't able to deal with the taint in that manner. Futher more why would anybody willing subdue themselves to nightmares of darkspawn and the archdemon?

To address this, I'm going to speak in general and I'm not directing what I'm about to say at you, though it is addressing it (Department of Redundancy Department)

There's a common misinterpretation of what I stated that usually happens. People believe that by telling the Head of State (Cailan) and the General of the Army (Loghain) in a confidential meeting that the Wardens would be blabbing their secrets to every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

That's not the case.

And all this said, the Warden secrets get out after Ostagar anyway. Anora knows about them, Mhairi knows about them. Varel, Garavel, and others know about them.

Pretty much a crapton of people know now that the Wardens drink Darkspawn blood.

And yet, their recruitment effort hasn't gone down. It's remained the same, if not having increased as a result.

I wasn't saying that no one outside the order knows about their secrets, although it may have seemed that way i'll give you that. It's only practical to think that you'll have big mouths in the Order. That being said I don't think that the vast majority of the world know what goes on with the Wardens. And I'm sure, pure speculation of course, that if a person hears that the Wardens drink darkspawn blood they'll shrug it off as a rumor and nothing more. Although I'm sure the same could be said for the opposite. That when they are told they'll beleive every word and even go so far as to exagerate the fact and say they drink it with every meal.        

That said, I think the Wardens try to keep the secret from getting out as best as they can. I also beleive that the people they try to avoid learning their secrets the most are the head of state of any country. Why? The kings/queens/Emporers what have you, all have influnce. What they say is the truth. What if they learn about the joinning and decide that Wardens are no better then darkspawn. They'll let the people of their nation know for sure and if the King said it, then it must be true. That would be a big hit on recruitment, i think. Im sure some people in power know about it, Anora for example. But again I don't think many wardens go around telling everyone they drank a cup of darkspawn blood for that reason.

[Warden661]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

BoBear wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Duncan is Fereldan IIRC

I think he is Antivan/Fereldan. Also he was born in Fereldan but grew up in Orlais. IIRC

He's Rivaini/Fereldan actually.

Ah, I thought it was one of the two. Thanks for clearing that up.

[TEWR]

Sure, it carries a huge risk. I won't try and claim otherwise. But it also has the potential to be a boon to their Order.

Look at the Anderfels. The Wardens there call the shots, in all but name. Given what little we know, it's possible the Anders people know Warden secrets.

And again, look at Ferelden. Their recruitment hasn't suffered in the least with the knowledge of Warden secrets making its way amidst the country -- Anora says it in a room filled with all of the nobility.

Anyway, my point was that the Wardens didn't do things that could've helped convince Loghain of the reality of their importance. Divulging Warden secrets to them in a secret meeting would assure them that much, of course. Loghain would actually try and make use of it, being the general he is. Cailan would probably just go "Awesome", knowing him.

But ignoring that, there are other ways they could assure the King and General of their importance. Lying about having seen signs of the Archdemon in the Deep Roads, for instance, being one that protects their secrets and guarantees they're taken seriously.

Although I'm sure the same could be said for the opposite. That when they are told they'll beleive every word and even go so far as to exagerate the fact and say they drink it with every meal.

You actually see a case of this with the gossips. They believe that the Wardens worship the Archdemon and work with the Darkspawn.

Or was that with the rumors certain merchants will say? If it was the merchants, then never mind as IIRC they dismiss the rumors.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Last Vizard]

Auintus wrote...

 Was just looking over some things and realized something.
A few decisions were imported from DAO to DA2, yet had no bearing on, well, anything. Obviously they will be used later, but one in particular concerns me.

Cailan's corpse burned
Cailan's corpse fed to wolves
Cailan's corpse left to darkspawn

What the hell could they do with that? I thought it was just for approval points, but it has been imported. Why?

Perhaps it shows something about the personality of the player?

Honour the dead
Dishonour the dead
Dishonour the dead

Just sayin.

[Warrior Craess]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I can totally see trying to replace the guy for the good of the kingdom. Loghain has a horrible sense of timing though, couldn't have possibly chosen a worse time to do this(I mean Blights only happen every few hundred years!). Regrettably his character comes off as far more inept in the game than in the books

Well, he didn't leave Cailan to die because he actually wanted the throne. It was a tactical retreat rather then any sort of political thing. Loghain didn't want the throne, but felt he had to be in the throne during the Blight in order to save the country.

He loved Cailan as a son, but found him to be a fool of a king. He was deeply hurt by the decision he was forced to make that resulted in his son-in-law -- Maric's child -- dying at the hands of the Darkspawn, even if Cailan was to blame for it to begin with.

Also, I don't think Loghain's ever been much of a politician. He's always sucked in that regard.

I gotta disagree with that. Logain wanted the throne. He had the option of defering until they had more soldiers, to include Orleasian wardens. He couldn't get past his own prejudice and thus thought he needed to be on the throne. At least thats my interpretation of it.  

Either way it's a D$%^ move to leave your daughters husband to die on the battlefield. This alone made me completely hate Logain, and is the reason he never survives in any of my games. 

[Little Princess Peach]

Auintus wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Who's Cailan?

*badum tish

King of Fereldan, dies at Ostagar. Sort've a nice chap.

I always agreed with Loghain here. He's nice enough, but quite childish.

He may come off as childish but really all he wanted was to be better than his great Father lot of presure to live by.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Pff, the real villains of DAO are darkspawns, Cailan and Eamon. One wants to kill us all, the other would lead us all to death and the third is just in it for the power.

[Auintus]

Last Vizard wrote...

Auintus wrote...

 Was just looking over some things and realized something.
A few decisions were imported from DAO to DA2, yet had no bearing on, well, anything. Obviously they will be used later, but one in particular concerns me.

Cailan's corpse burned
Cailan's corpse fed to wolves
Cailan's corpse left to darkspawn

What the hell could they do with that? I thought it was just for approval points, but it has been imported. Why?

Perhaps it shows something about the personality of the player?

Honour the dead
Dishonour the dead
Dishonour the dead

Just sayin.

That was my original thought, but then why include it with data to be imported?

[Maclimes]

I always assumed it noted the fate of Cailan's corpse simply as a way of saying, "You played the DLC".

[nightscrawl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

While I worked on the import *system* I don't know all the places that they were used.  There's actually a quite a lot of stuff that does get imported that goes beyond just plot flag stuff too, IIRC.

I'm surprised you admitted that on these forums... lol. (I tease here.)

Is the extra stuff "just in case" it was used in a DLC or something? Or did I misunderstand what you meant there? Also, as a player yourself, would you prefer to import into DA3, or just start from scratch with a bunch of choices?

Modifié par nightscrawl, 24 septembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[DragonRacer]

Just gotta say, I love how Loghain is truly the Alpha and Omega of DA.

Going back to Origins... then to the DA2 boards... and now this one. No matter the subject of a thread, it all eventually reverts to an awesome back-and-forth debate over whether Loghain is a good guy, bad guy, or something in between.

Rustles my jimmies. In a positive way.