263 réponses à ce sujet

[Face of Evil]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Broodmothers producing darkspawn by sex, so a genlock must rape dwarf Broodmother to produce genlock, thousands of genlocks.

But like I said, how could there be genlocks having sex with broodmothers if there WERE NO genlocks to begin with?

[Terrorize69]

Face of Evil wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

If darkspawn is not produced sexually, how they are produced? Women cannot give birth without male blob blob, even it is a mutation....except Mary who have miraculous birth of Jesus Christ

So if you want to say darkspawn are from miraculous birth, then it is a miracle from the Maker, isn't it?

Like I said, broodmothers produce darkspawn independently. They just pop them out like the Alien Queen from, well, Aliens. A single broodmother can produce hundreds of darkspawn before it dies.

Here's where you're making a mistake: you're assuming that a broodmother needs to have sex with a genlock to create more genlocks. But if that were the case, then how could genlocks come into existence when there were NO genlocks to begin with? It's the old chicken and the egg problem.

Terrorize69 wrote...

That still doesn't explain that IF darkspawn were created from corrupted mages, why their descendants arnt magically gifted. Those first darkspawn would of used broodmothers, created from magical tainted blood, the broodmothers would of birthed magically gifted darkspawn. And the cycle would continue, but they didn't. 

Again, we're not talking about sexual reproduction here. Human children inherit traits from their parents, but darkspawn are not human. They don't even have parents to get their genes.

Exactly! Tevinters are humans, darkspawn arn't and never were. The golden city was already black by the time the Tev had invaded, eye witness said so himself. So the Chantry is wrong about their involvement.

Yes they knocked down the doors to the Golden city, except itnwas no longer golden. Something else had already corrupted it. Those magistrates were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Face of Evil]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If Broodmothers don't produce darkspawn sexually, why need women anyway? Why not kidnapping men, then making them Broodfathers, Darkspawns can spoof out from them too, no need sex.

Because men can't have babies. Darkspawn are still birthed, y'see; broodmothers just grow darkspawn on their own and eventually pop them out.

You need to get over this idea that sex is involved in darkspawn production. All indications are that it's not. That's how the magisters could create all the different varieties of darkspawn.

[Face of Evil]

Nizaris1 wrote...

You said darkspawn reproduction is NOT by sex, so male or female is not important. And then you use "mutation" argument, so why not men mutated to produce darkspawn?

Right, there is no sexual intercourse involved. But the darkspawn can't make male ghouls grow wombs.

Nizaris1 wrote...

Edit : So what? The Magisters kidnap female dwarves then force them to eat their own corrupted flesh?

Edit ; In order to make women mutated is to gby force feed them with darkspawn flesh, so back to begining, the Magisters force women to eat them?

They make the women drink their blood and force them to feed on the flesh of non-corrupted beings, like human or dwarven prisoners. Hespith was very clear on that point; before Laryn changed, she tore her husband apart and ate him.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 19 octobre 2012 - 12:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Face of Evil wrote...

Remember it is they who struck first. When the mages beg the templars to show mercy, to stay our hands, remember it is they who asked for this war.

Actually, the templars attacked first when they first became an organization independent of the Chantry, opening a new front to the war. Not only that, the mages never even attacked the Chantry; all they did was vote to secede, and the templar response, as always, was "KILL EVERYONE."

[Vitlen]

Yes, very good idea.All mages must be enslaved and kept in cages like dogs or killed if they don`t want to serve holy inquisitors.

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

You said earlier darkspawn don't reproduce sexually...

yes, they come from Broodmothers who mutated, then those Broodmothers got raped before they can produce darkspawns.

Broodmothers still need blob blob from darkspawn to produce baby darkspawn...

so now, how come HUMAN corrupted magisters producing genlocks from dwarves broodmothers by HUMAN blob blob?

Oh, so that's what the blob blob is! 

... in English we call it "semen."

Though I do agree with you - something sexual definitely happens between the darkspawn and the women that they capture. Hespith specifically says that "they want to touch" and "she was violated" and I'm pretty sure that the "spew" that happens in the womens' mouths isn't just regurtitated food like a baby bird.
... which just makes the whole process even more disgusting. I don't even think lady Grey Wardens should be allowed to take their Calling in the Deep Roads if there's a chance they can be captured and turned into those things. It defeats the whole purpose of a life devoted to killing darkspawn if you just end up being a darkspawn factory, right?



Anyway, the Chant says that it was the pride ("hubris") of men that created the darkspawn - not mages. It just so happened that the only people who could make the trip to the Golden City were those with mage powers. Anyone might have tried it, but they were the only ones that could.

Thus, magic is not to blame for the Blights - it was mortalkind's having the audacity and lack of respect for the Maker to overtake his home. At least, according to the Chantry.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 19 octobre 2012 - 02:04 .

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Chant say the MEN pride that bring everyone to doom, they are quite right, there are no women darkspawn, they are all MEN, and they need to violate non-darkspawn women to create more MEN darkspawn...

Anyway, if the Blight is really a punishment to MANkind, and the Mages who got cursed, why The Maker produce many more Mages throughout Thedas for thousands of years?

I don't think the darkspawn really have a gender. I mean, like you said - they don't specifically have males and females. So what they are is what they are. But that's a really minor detail and not really worth worrying about, I guess.

The Chant of Light actually says that magic is a gift. That it "exists to serve man", meaning that the Maker created it and intends it for good. So it makes sense that mages are born every day, though technically you could argue that since the Maker temporarily turned his back on the world it just means that nature is running its course whether he'd want it that way or not.

He specifically punished the magisters that entered the City, and he also generally punished the world by letting their taint spread when he sent them back. So mages in general aren't cursed - those specific men who happened to be mages were, and now everyone else has to deal with some of those consequences too. There's nothing we've seen in the Chant so far that suggests that mages are any more out of favor with the Maker than anyone else.

Again, according to the Chant of Light.

[KainD]

This Templar supporters behavior and quotes remind me of space marines for some reason. lol

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

He specifically punished the magisters that entered the City, and he also generally punished the world by letting their taint spread when he sent them back. So mages in general aren't cursed - those specific men who happened to be mages were, and now everyone else has to deal with some of those consequences too. There's nothing we've seen in the Chant so far that suggests that mages are any more out of favor with the Maker than anyone else.

That is the idea i find absurd.

let us look back :

- The Maker cursed the Magisters becoming darkspawn. The Magisters are human for sure, or maybe some of them are Elves. Where the hell Genlock come from?

They most likely come from darkspawn capturing dwarven women and turning them into Broodmothers, who make genlocks.

- The Blight is The Maker punishment, so it is the will of The Maker. Why the hell the Chantry supporting Grey Warden against The Blight? Isn't that against the will of their God?

- Let say, the Grey Warden managed to stop the Blight, doesn't that mean the Grey Warden are superior than The Maker and prove that The Maker is not God and doesn't even exist?

The lore is actually really clear about this - that when mortalkind has defeated all the Blights, the punishment is over. The darkspawn may even disappear after the last Old God is destroyed (can't say for sure). The Maker wants to see the Blights defeated, but he wants mortals to do that work on their own. We can assume that he is generally pro-Grey Warden, even if he wouldn't approve of every choice they've made to get the job done.

- The Chantry with their law imprison all Mages, by fear of they become abominations, they also relate all Mages with the history of The Blight. They do this, believing doing The Maker's work. Isn't that a contradiction with their belief The Maker have left everyone and don't care a damn about the world?

I do think there's a contradiction with what the Chant says about the Maker being absent - because you see people asking him for help all the time ("Maker guide your servant" and so on).

As far as the Chantry treating mages badly when the Chant itself says not to, that either means that they've let some of their leaders' personal biases move them away from a true understanding of the Chant, or it means that we just haven't been shown those verses in the Chant that say mages are scum yet.

- The Maker punished the Magisters, but Tevinter Imperium existed for so long after that, and glorious until Andraste rebel, and she is claimed to be a prophet and bride of The Maker. If The maker really can curse the Magisters why not destroying the Imperium as the whole in the beginning and no need for Andraste who existed for thousand of years later.

He decided that punishing those who were directly responsible for the corruption of the Black City and letting everyone else feel the effect of that was enough. Maybe there were innocents in Tevinter. Maybe we just aren't meant to understand his decisions. Regardless, once the magisters became darkspawn, he turned away. Why he turned back to see Andraste, we don't know.  Maybe we'll find out.

- "Magic must serve men, and not rule over him", the Chantry motto, but what this anything to do with the Circle? isn't those Mages are SUPPOSED TO help/serve men with their magic and not being locked up or Tranquilized? Isn't that a contradiction?

Yes. It's definitely a contradiction.

- There is NO Holy order, or Word of God, or Word of Prophet, Divine Order whatever ordering that all Mages must be sent to Circle, watched for 24/7, Tranquilized if needed. Clearly this practice is NOT from their religion, but law of men. It is NOT Holy or Divine order.

I'd agree with that. It's a "human" solution to a divine problem. They did the best they could, and that best isn't good enough.

- The Chantry don't even know where their beloved prophet remain, and have no idea about Haven, how come they be so sure about everything? It is clearly that the Chantry religion is baseless, made up and fanatical. There is no truth from them.

You might be right.

But their religion is still worth understanding, if what you want to do is understand Thedas well enough to have these kinds of discussions. At the end of the day, the Maker is meant to be so much higher than the mortal races that his ways aren't easily understood, and it's not anyone's place to say that he's being unjust. As a religious person yourself, I'm sure you have to deal with that all the time - "If Allah is good, why does this and this happen?" "If Allah loved the Prophet, why isn't he still living?" "If Allah loves his people, why are they persecuted on earth?"

The answer is the same in Thedas as it would be for every religion - "We don't understand it completely, but we believe he has his reasons, and we trust him even when we don't understand."

DA fans can think that's dumb, but they ought to at least recognize that that's where many characters are coming from.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:33 .

[Xilizhra]

He decided that punishing those who were directly responsible for the corruption of the Black City and letting everyone else feel the effect of that was enough. Maybe there were innocents in Tevinter. Maybe we just aren't meant to understand his decisions. Regardless, once the magisters became darkspawn, he turned away. Why he turned back to see Andraste, we don't know. Maybe we'll find out.

If the Maker actually did this, I believe it' safe to say that the Maker is pure evil.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

He decided that punishing those who were directly responsible for the corruption of the Black City and letting everyone else feel the effect of that was enough. Maybe there were innocents in Tevinter. Maybe we just aren't meant to understand his decisions. Regardless, once the magisters became darkspawn, he turned away. Why he turned back to see Andraste, we don't know. Maybe we'll find out.

If the Maker actually did this, I believe it' safe to say that the Maker is pure evil.

Yeah, any speculation on that point has gotta be just for fun, because this is DA - meaning that we don't have the whole story. He very well could be -  I hope we get the chance to find out.

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

No...my whole point is, the chantry is full of rubbish.

Down with the Chantry, let blow them up everywhere we see them!

Okay. I just don't think your Chantry-hate is based on a very solid understanding of the lore.

[The Hierophant]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

No...my whole point is, the chantry is full of rubbish.

Down with the Chantry, let blow them up everywhere we see them!

Okay. I just don't think your Chantry-hate is based on a very solid understanding of the lore.

This, also Nizaris where the heck did any lore or text indicate that the Maker was a demon?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:51 .

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Okay. I just don't think your Chantry-hate is based on a very solid understanding of the lore.

I fully understand it and i can see the rubbish

- Magisters cursed become a darkspawn because they defile the Golden City
- Darkspawn bring Blight upon the world as The Maker punishment to mankind
- Grey Warden against The Blight and are the heroes of all, the Chantry approve +100
- Andraste is a wife of a guy, she rebel against Tevinter Imprium, later become The Maker prophet and bride
- Andraste got burned by Magisters, where is The Maker?
- someone hide away Andraste remain and no one know where it is, and many believe it is just a MYTH
- Mages must be hunted down imprisoned, watched, tranquilized because they are the cause of all problems, The Chantry and Templars are doing The Maker's work

What the hell?

I'd quote myself to say that you don't understand the lore again, but that would just be sooo redundant.

I've already gone out of my way to help you understand why some of those assumptions you just posted are based on a poor understanding of what the Dragon Age lore is very clear on. But you don't want to understand - you want to get all excited and have ten good reasons to hate the Maker, as if just three aren't enough. So ok. Just don't be upset when that doesn't make sense to anyone besides you.

It's a religion (something you ought to understand). Their deity doesn't have to do everything the way you'd want him to in order to still be considered "good."

It's a religion. It's a bunch of high ideals carried out by people, who are imperfect and are going to mess it up. Something you should also be able to understand.

[Vandicus]

Nizaris1 wrote...

He specifically punished the magisters that entered the City, and he also generally punished the world by letting their taint spread when he sent them back. So mages in general aren't cursed - those specific men who happened to be mages were, and now everyone else has to deal with some of those consequences too. There's nothing we've seen in the Chant so far that suggests that mages are any more out of favor with the Maker than anyone else.

That is the idea i find absurd.

let us look back :

- The Maker cursed the Magisters becoming darkspawn. The Magisters are human for sure, or maybe some of them are Elves. Where the hell Genlock come from?

- The Blight is The Maker punishment, so it is the will of The Maker. Why the hell the Chantry supporting Grey Warden against The Blight? Isn't that against the will of their God?

- Let say, the Grey Warden managed to stop the Blight, doesn't that mean the Grey Warden are superior than The Maker and prove that The Maker is not God and doesn't even exist?

- The Chantry with their law imprison all Mages, by fear of they become abominations, they also relate all Mages with the history of The Blight. They do this, believing doing The Maker's work. Isn't that a contradiction with their belief The Maker have left everyone and don't care a damn about the world?

- The Maker punished the Magisters, but Tevinter Imperium existed for so long after that, and glorious until Andraste rebel, and she is claimed to be a prophet and bride of The Maker. If The maker really can curse the Magisters why not destroying the Imperium as the whole in the beginning and no need for Andraste who existed for thousand of years later.

- "Magic must serve men, and not rule over him", the Chantry motto, but what this anything to do with the Circle? isn't those Mages are SUPPOSED TO help/serve men with their magic and not being locked up or Tranquilized? Isn't that a contradiction?

- There is NO Holy order, or Word of God, or Word of Prophet, Divine Order whatever ordering that all Mages must be sent to Circle, watched for 24/7, Tranquilized if needed. Clearly this practice is NOT from their religion, but law of men. It is NOT Holy or Divine order.

- The Chantry don't even know where their beloved prophet remain, and have no idea about Haven, how come they be so sure about everything? It is clearly that the Chantry religion is baseless, made up and fanatical. There is no truth from them.

Edit :

- The Templar consume Lyrium, there they got their power, NOT a Divine power, NOT being blessed or whatever by The Maker. It is FAKE and MAN MADE, a proof that they are NOT an agent of The Maker or doing The Maker's work.

Edit 2 :

- The Maker is so ****** off, creating darkspawn from Magisters to destroy the world for punishment....thousands years later, Andraste is born, cast down Tevinter Imperium, then become His bride...err....what? Meaning The Maker FAILED to destroy the world, FAILED to punish mankind, then He decided to marry an already married woman...

You seem to have some misunderstandings about the lore. 

A. Darkspawn are not produced sexually. A female is necessary for a broodmother, because men don't have wombs, but what it doesn't take a genlock to make a genlock. It simply takes a female dwarf.

B. Punishment is not the same as attempting to wipe it out. Please familiarize yourself with any religion that exists irl before attempting to make comments on religious beliefs. Humanity is supposed to overcome the darkspawn.

C. The Tevinter Imperium was ravaged by darkspawn for hundreds of years, otherwise Andraste would have undoubtedly failed when attempting to defeat the powerful blood mages and their Romanesque armies.

D. The Chantry manages mages not because of a line in their Chant, but because of Emperor Drakon. Emperor Drakon establishes the Chantry as a civilian organization to oversee the Inquisition, which he persuaded to become the Templar Order rather than continuing to eliminate all mages.

E. Mages from the Circles do help people, though not necessarily as much as could be desired. They also have a very limited role when it comes to working with nobility or kings because the Circles are explicitly neutral. Mages and Templars are not to get involved in political affairs or wars.

The Maker, if he is indeed the one who made the darkspawn, was very successfull at destroying the Tevinter Imperium.

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

everything in the Fade are demons, spirits is just another name of demon, so The Maker must be a Demon....The Archdemon.

It's the other way around as demons are a mortal name for the carnivorous spirits in the Fade. Plus i doubt the Maker is a demon because nowhere in the lore does it say that the spirits were created in his image.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:10 .