263 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

The Hierophant wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

everything in the Fade are demons, spirits is just another name of demon, so The Maker must be a Demon....The Archdemon.

It's the other way around as demons are a mortal name for the carnivorous spirits in the Fade. Plus i doubt the Maker is a demon because nowhere in the lore does it say that the spirits were created in his image.

Yep. He also doesn't exist in the Fade, but somewhere beyond it.

[Xilizhra]

The Maker, if he is indeed the one who made the darkspawn, was very successfull at destroying the Tevinter Imperium.

No he wasn't, he just reduced its power over the south. It still exists and is still quite powerful, it just no longer has a political monopoly. Also, it made Andrastianism match its own culture, not the other way around.

[unbentbuzzkill]

I believe the maker is evil nothing he goes says " benevolent "

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Okay...i give a simplified version

- The God get angry toward certain group of human
- The God punish that group become monsters
- The monsters are to destroy the world as The God punishment unto the world
- There are a group of human can defeat those monsters 5 times
- The God failed to destroy the world as He wish for 4 times
- The God worshipers approve it and continue worship The God
- The one who God so pissed off manage to built an empire
- The God cannot destroy the empire
- There is a married woman who manage to cast down the empire
- That woman died burned by the empire
- That woman become The God wife
- Still The God failed to destroy the world
- And still the worshipers worship The God and doing everything in the name of God
- Again The God trying to destroy the world again
- And again a group of human can deny it
- The God failed again....

What a sad God...

IIRC all the chant said was that he cursed Thedas with the taint for the Tevinters hubris then married some slave warrior chick and went on a millenia long honeymoon with his wife's ashes.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:29 .

[brushyourteeth]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Okay...i give a simplified version

- The God get angry toward certain group of human
- The God punish that group become monsters
- The monsters are to destroy the world as The God punishment unto the world
- There are a group of human can defeat those monsters 4 times
- The God failed to destroy the world as He wish for 4 times
- The God worshipers approve it and continue worship The God
- The one who God so pissed off manage to built an empire
- The God cannot destroy the empire
- There is a married woman who manage to cast down the empire
- That woman died burned by the empire
- That woman become The God wife
- Still The God failed to destroy the world
- And still the worshipers worship The God and doing everything in the name of God
- Again The God trying to destroy the world
- And again a group of human can deny it
- The God failed again....
- The worshipper approve

What a sad God...

Have you actually played either of the games?

[Vandicus]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Okay...i give a simplified version

- The God get angry toward certain group of human
- The God punish that group become monsters
- The monsters are to destroy the world as The God punishment unto the world
- There are a group of human can defeat those monsters 4 times
- The God failed to destroy the world as He wish for 4 times
- The God worshipers approve it and continue worship The God
- The one who God so pissed off manage to built an empire
- The God cannot destroy the empire
- There is a married woman who manage to cast down the empire
- That woman died burned by the empire
- That woman become The God wife
- Still The God failed to destroy the world
- And still the worshipers worship The God and doing everything in the name of God
- Again The God trying to destroy the world
- And again a group of human can deny it
- The God failed again....
- The worshipper approve

What a sad God...

Have you actually played either of the games?

Judging by his repeated restatements despite our explanations to the contrary, it appears he hasn't even read our posts.

[Face of Evil]

The Blights were not the Maker's attempts to 'destroy the world.' If anything, because Dumat apparently tricked the Magisters into entering the Black City and the Old Gods now call to the darkspawn, the Blights can be seen as the Old Gods' attempts to destroy the Maker's creation.

It is true that all demons are spirits, but not all spirits are demons. Many are good, benevolent entities that wish mankind no harm. Some even want to help mortals. The issue is that spirits are beings so alien to us that their "help" can be as bad as if they were intentionally trying to hurt us.

The abuses of the ancient Tevinter Imperium are well-documented. One need only walk into the Gallows and sample their taste in statuary to see that the Tevinters weren't nice people. They're still not very nice, but since their empire is in ruins, they're no longer as threatening.

That the Chantry did not know where the remains of Andraste were kept is not important. They were hidden away by a small sect of her followers and later on by a murderous dragon cult. What matters is the words of Andraste.

[brushyourteeth]

Vandicus wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Okay...i give a simplified version

- The God get angry toward certain group of human
- The God punish that group become monsters
- The monsters are to destroy the world as The God punishment unto the world
- There are a group of human can defeat those monsters 4 times
- The God failed to destroy the world as He wish for 4 times
- The God worshipers approve it and continue worship The God
- The one who God so pissed off manage to built an empire
- The God cannot destroy the empire
- There is a married woman who manage to cast down the empire
- That woman died burned by the empire
- That woman become The God wife
- Still The God failed to destroy the world
- And still the worshipers worship The God and doing everything in the name of God
- Again The God trying to destroy the world
- And again a group of human can deny it
- The God failed again....
- The worshipper approve

What a sad God...

Have you actually played either of the games?

Judging by his repeated restatements despite our explanations to the contrary, it appears he hasn't even read our posts.

You get a brofist from me for trying.

[Terrorize69]

The maker is Merrill in elven form, just saying

[LobselVith8]

Face of Evil wrote...

The Blights were not the Maker's attempts to 'destroy the world.' If anything, because Dumat apparently tricked the Magisters into entering the Black City and the Old Gods now call to the darkspawn, the Blights can be seen as the Old Gods' attempts to destroy the Maker's creation.

If the City was already Black, the Magisters may not have been the first darkspawn, or even the first 'awakened' darkspawn.

Face of Evil wrote...

It is true that all demons are spirits, but not all spirits are demons. Many are good, benevolent entities that wish mankind no harm. Some even want to help mortals. The issue is that spirits are beings so alien to us that their "help" can be as bad as if they were intentionally trying to hurt us.

Based on the dialogue between Anders and Merrill, Spirits and Demons is tied to Andrastian lore, viewing them as "Children of the Maker," with Spirits as the First Children of the Maker, and Demons as Spirits who turned their backs on Him out of jealousy, with Dalish viewing the denizens of the Fade (the Beyond) as spirits.

Face of Evil wrote...

The abuses of the ancient Tevinter Imperium are well-documented. One need only walk into the Gallows and sample their taste in statuary to see that the Tevinters weren't nice people. They're still not very nice, but since their empire is in ruins, they're no longer as threatening.

The Imperium committed a number of atrocities.

Face of Evil wrote...

That the Chantry did not know where the remains of Andraste were kept is not important. They were hidden away by a small sect of her followers and later on by a murderous dragon cult. What matters is the words of Andraste.

The Cult of Andraste in Haven became morally bankrupt centuries later, because of one of Kolgrim's ancestors who saw the Dragon as Andraste reborn, who proceeded to murder everyone who disagreed with his views; it wasn't always so heinous.

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Anyone who have healthy mind know that the Chantry is bull****

The same could be said for any irl religion.

The Chantry lore is rubbish, they just hate mages.

It's more like fear, and after the shenaningans with the Tevinter i can't blame them.

I think they make Andraste as The Maker prophet and Bride are just an exaggeration, just because Andraste fighting Tevinter Imperium. In anyway, they don't even know where the remain of Andraste is.

Skepticism everyone on the forums have it, and the Chantry's knowledge of Andraste's ashes is dependent on your decision of Genitivi's fate.

So they made up stories and poisoning the minds of peoples, creating hate and fear towards mages

Nope it's homicidal demons, Uldred, Tarohne, Huon, and the Tevinter Imperium that perpetuates that fear, and gives the Templars support amongst the populace in quarantining mages.

There is NO religion of the Chantry actually, it is just bullcraps of some politicians disguising as priests who despise Tevinter Imperium and Mages

The same could be said for the majority of irl religions, and stop defending the Imperium as it's a s*** stain on Thedas' collective conscience.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 19 octobre 2012 - 05:27 .

[Face of Evil]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Cult of Andraste in Haven became morally bankrupt centuries later, because of one of Kolgrim's ancestors who saw the Dragon as Andraste reborn, who proceeded to murder everyone who disagreed with his views; it wasn't always so heinous.

Actually, they didn't jump on the dragon-worshipping bandwagon straight away. The Guardian said that one of Kolgrim's ancestors actually styled himself as the new prophet and killed anyone who didn't agree. When it turned out he was just mad, they took up dragon worship.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

The Blights were not the Maker's attempts to 'destroy the world.' If anything, because Dumat apparently tricked the Magisters into entering the Black City and the Old Gods now call to the darkspawn, the Blights can be seen as the Old Gods' attempts to destroy the Maker's creation.

If the City was already Black, the Magisters may not have been the first darkspawn, or even the first 'awakened' darkspawn.

Not following your logic here. If the city was always a cesspool of potential super-Taint, though disguised as golden from the outside, how does that change whether the Magisters were or weren't the first darkspawn from entering it?

The reason to believe they are:

A tainted human does not become a darkspawn. They become ghouls. The Magisters are turned into true darkspawn, allowing for an origination of the species.

Its a theory that explains the origin of a race that we have no other explanation for at this point. Whether or not the city was golden seems irrelevant to whether or not the Magisters were the original darkspawn.

Sure they might not be the first, but we haven't see anything predating them, especially when it comes to awakened darkspawn.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the City was already Black, the Magisters may not have been the first darkspawn, or even the first 'awakened' darkspawn. 

Not following your logic here.

If the City was already Black prior to the arrival of the Magisters, perhaps there were others who were turned into darkspawn before the Magisters. It isn't too difficult to follow.

Vandicus wrote...

If the city was always a cesspool of potential super-Taint, though disguised as golden from the outside, how does that change whether the Magisters were or weren't the first darkspawn from entering it?

There may have been others who went to the City prior to the Magisters.

Vandicus wrote...

The reason to believe they are:

A tainted human does not become a darkspawn. They become ghouls. The Magisters are turned into true darkspawn, allowing for an origination of the species.

Its a theory that explains the origin of a race that we have no other explanation for at this point. Whether or not the city was golden seems irrelevant to whether or not the Magisters were the original darkspawn.

Sure they might not be the first, but we haven't see anything predating them, especially when it comes to awakened darkspawn. 

Dwarven records give no indication that 'awakened' darkspawn were initially encountered.

[Felya87]

I may have liked the templars. long time ago, during DA:O, when the only person who was interested to find out what happened in the Elf's orphanotrophy was a Templar (honor to ser otto).

Then i realyze templars are just a group of toxic with a sword.

great. >_>

and in DA2 mages can't broke a nail without becaming a hunckbacked monster.

fantastic. >_>

...I think I'm going to kill both.

[labargegrrrl]

it's ALIVE!!!  

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Applepie_Svk wrote...



Give us another chance to fix this mistake and allow us to Anders in the DA3:Inquisition 

An how precisely does one Anders? Is this some new dance craze I have not yet heard of?

[dragonflight288]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Gauntlet is creted by the Chantry supporter who want to secure the ash from being stolen by Tevinter, so it only allow the one who agree with with Chantry idea to enter

Not true. Andraste lived long before the Chantry did. The gauntlet was created by supporters of Andraste. The Chantry didn't rise until roughly 150 years after her death, and it was just one of many Andrastian cults that Drakon chose to help him justify conquering everyone.

The Guardians are a spirit, those who test the Warden are spirits. Spirits = Demons. They turn out into demons if the Warden failed to answer their riddles

Morrigan clearly stated that the Guardian is a spirit, the same way she know Flemeth in the Fade is a spirit

Oghren stated that the place have lyrium underground that maybe making those spirits can live for so long outside the Fade

Not arguing. And Oghren does comment on there being a butt load of lyrium in the mountain. He raises the question on whether the ashes were magical, or the mountain.

If the Warden defile the urn, the Guardian become weakened, and so the wraiths that will attack the Warden. Clearly showing that there is some kind of magic that plays

Somehow, the Chantry don't even know the existence of this Temple, but still they continue to preach...

In the meanwhile there is a cult that saying otherwise...the High Dragon is Andraste reborn, and some how Kolgrim manage to communicate with the Dragon...isn't that odd?

Dragon cults codex entry.

On the worship of dragons
Let us suggest, for the moment, that a high dragon is simply an
animal. A cunning animal, to be sure, but in possession of no true
self-awareness or sentience. There has not, after all, been a single
recorded case of a dragon attempting to communicate or performing any
act that could not likewise be attributed to a clever beast.
How, then, does one explain the existence of so-called "dragon cults" throughout history?
One dragon cult might be explainable, especially in light of the reverence of the Old Gods in the ancient Tevinter Imperium. In the wake of the first Blight,
many desperate imperial citizens turned to the worship of real dragons
to replace the Old Gods who had failed them. A dragon, after all, was a
god-figure that they could see: It was there, as real as the archdemon itself, and, as evidence makes clear, did offer a degree of protection to its cultists.
Other dragon cults could be explained in light of the first. Some
cult members might have survived and spread the word. The worship of
the Old Gods was as widespread as the Imperium itself--certainly such
secrets could have made their way into many hands. But there have been
reports of dragon cults even in places where the Imperium never touched,
among folks who had never heard of the Old Gods or had any reason to.
How does one explain them?
Members of a dragon cult live in the same lair as a high dragon,
nurturing and protecting its defenseless young. In exchange, the high
dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those
young in order to feast on draconic blood. That blood is said to have a
number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater
strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may
breed insanity as well. Nevarran
dragon-hunters have said these cultists are incredibly powerful
opponents. The changes in the cultists are a form of blood magic,
surely, but how did the symbiotic relationship between the cult and the
high dragon form in the first place? How did the cultists know to drink
the dragon's blood? How did the high dragon convince them to care for
its young, or know that they would?
Is there more to draconic intelligence than we have heretofore
guessed at? No member of a dragon cult has ever been taken alive, and
what accounts exist from the days of the Nevarran hunters record only
mad rants and impossible tales of godhood. With dragons only recently
reappearing and still incredibly rare, we may never know the truth, but
the question remains.
--From Flame and Scale, by Brother Florian, Chantry scholar, 9:28 Dragon.

I wouldn't say being able to talk to the dragon is odd considering the Old Gods worshipped by the Imperium and the other dragon cults mentioned throughout the land that the Imperium never touched. This is just a case of it.

It also adds evidence that becoming a Reaver is a blood magic ritual.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ash wraiths aren't neccesarily demon/spirits.

[DKJaigen]

Nizaris1 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Not true. Andraste lived long before the Chantry did. The gauntlet was created by supporters of Andraste. The Chantry didn't rise until roughly 150 years after her death, and it was just one of many Andrastian cults that Drakon chose to help him justify conquering everyone.

Who are the "supporters of Andraste" who built the Temple with such mechanism that support the Chantry belief?

If the Chantry belief goes around 150 years after Andraste death, how come that Chantry share the very same idea with the Gauntlet? It cannot be because the Chantry don't know anything about the Temple.

So the one who create the Gauntlet are the one who created the Chantry but somehow keep the existence of the Temple secret.

"The Gauntlet" is created to ward away Tevinter Mages from stealing the Ash meaning it created to ward away any non-Chantry believers from entering the Temple. That is the mechanism Bro Genitivy is talking about. It is MECHANIC and is CREATED.

Thre is little clue to figure out how the mechanism work, that is by failing the Gauntlet, comments from companions and destroying the Urn.

After andraste's dead their was something of a darkage for thedas and many historical facts are lost. But it is known that their are several cults of andraste appeared after andrate's death .. The cults would have called the tevinter imperium their enemy but they where not a unified religion. So it was not the chantry who created the temple.

[dragonflight288]

Nizaris1 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Not true. Andraste lived long before the Chantry did. The gauntlet was created by supporters of Andraste. The Chantry didn't rise until roughly 150 years after her death, and it was just one of many Andrastian cults that Drakon chose to help him justify conquering everyone.

Who are the "supporters of Andraste" who built the Temple with such mechanism that support the Chantry belief?

If the Chantry belief goes around 150 years after Andraste death, how come that Chantry share the very same idea with the Gauntlet? It cannot be because the Chantry don't know anything about the Temple.

So the one who create the Gauntlet are the one who created the Chantry but somehow keep the existence of the Temple secret.

"The Gauntlet" is created to ward away Tevinter Mages from stealing the Ash meaning it created to ward away any non-Chantry believers from entering the Temple. That is the mechanism Bro Genitivy is talking about. It is MECHANIC and is CREATED.

Thre is little clue to figure out how the mechanism work, that is by failing the Gauntlet, comments from companions and destroying the Urn.

The Dragon Cult of Haven predates the Chantry. Originally they revered the Maker and Andraste, but over time, they forgot the maker in place of the High Dragon, whom they believed to be the resurrected Andraste. They had revered Fathers and mages who ran things.

And Andraste called for a return to the worship of the Maker. She didn't create the religion of worshipping the Maker. He already abandoned humankind once before. He came back because he fell in love with Andraste's singing, and gave humanity another chance, before abandoning them a second time when Mafarath, Andraste's current husband, betrayed her.

Alistair and Leliana both speculate that Haven predates the Chantry if they're in the party at the time we visit.

Knowing Andraste and revering her doesn't have to mean being a member of the Chantry. Drakon simply chose the Chantry as the principle religion to help him conqeur everyone else. There were dozens of other Andrastian cults he could've chosen from. Whose to say which one was the correct one?