40 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

I've pitched this idea in a few threads, so I figured I'd just  go ahead and make a thread for it all by itself.

So, as many people on this forum know, consumers like to complain about Day One DLC.

Players can feel like they are being nickeled and dimed, that Bioware is purposefully following a model where every game has content being parsed and locked out and then charging more for it later. AS has been discussed on this forum numerous times by Bioware employees, there are a multitude of reasons why this happens from the game development side, yet no matter how many times the argument is made, many people are not and cannot be convinced that they aren't being swindled.

So, as I have done in many of those threads, I am proposing an alternative to Day One DLC that could possibly reduce the number of complaints, still give Bioware revenue for the work they do and still give those loyal Bioware fans who pre-order the Collector's Edition a bonus for their investment.

I, and many other gamers who protest, do not have a problem with DLC. We don't even, inherently, have a problem with Day One DLC. The defining moment is when this DLC is STORY DLC, and not just weapons bonuses, extra skins or a cool feature (like the Black Emporium or the Mabari Hound). Its when you throw story, characters and missions into the mix, on Day One, and require people to pay extra for that Story DLC on the same day as release that I and others have qualms. 

Now, I don't want to get into the discussion of why this is neccessary, why Day One DLC happens and why I should just shut up - I have heard all of these lines before and understand them well.

The model I propose is this - no Story Day One DLC. Instead, use pre-orders and Collector's Editions to give away cool swag (everyone likes swag), strategy guide (like DA2 did, which had an AWESOME strategy guide that filled in a lot of the gameplay mechanic gaps not covered in the manual or in-game tutorial) and/or weapons/features pack DLC (like DA2 did with the above-mentioned Mabari Hound and Black Emporium). 

IN ADDITION, however... they would also include a discount to buying future DLC. 

This is the biggest part of my suggested model.

A discount to future DLC (which, as a Bioware company, we know DLC will be made and sold, as its been their model now for the past five releases) would be a HUGE incentive to pre-order a Collector's Edition. Players would buy their reserves months in advance in order to make sure they could cash in on this discount. This is beneficial to Bioware, since it ensures that almost every Collector's Edition they make will be pre-ordered and sold, and it means that people will now be invested in their game.

A player who has spent an extra $10 to get, say, Javik, will play one playthrough with him and could likely shelve your game, never to be played or talked about again. But a player who spent $10 to get a discount on future DLC? That player would buy Javik at a discount, then buy Leviathan at a discount, then buy Omega at a discount... because if the money they had spent to get them the discounted rate would be lost if they don't use it, then the consumer will be extremely motivated to buy and play every DLC that is released.

To give a perspective, I would wonder how many people downloaded the free EC DLC for ME3. I would guess at least half of the number of purchases (a totally unfounded number, but I still feel safe in ballparking it around there). It was probably the most downloaded DLC Bioware has released. That's because A) people were invested (they wanted to see a more complete ending) and there was no financial hurdle to them doing so.

In the same vein, if every player who got the $10 Collector's Edition also was invested in purchasing any future DLC AND the same discount reduced the cost barrier of DLC, then I would say the majority of people who purchased the extra $10 Collector's Edition would be downloading every DLC Bioware released.

This results in more sales (at, granted, a lower price, but the increased volume and the upfront $10 would balance this out in Bioware's favor) and it would result in players feeling like they are getting a deal, and getting a feeling of investing themselves in a game. 

My caveat to this is, again, no Story Day One DLC. I would have prefered to say Javik's DLC released a month later, with some added polish. People complain that Javik wasn't that essential or neccessary and that his intereactions with other companions except for Liara was minimal. Could this have been added with an extra month of work? I'd think so. In addition, maybe they could have made his recruitment mission a little more in-depth, or added some other features as well. Point being, if you don't see Day One as your drop-dead date of when content has to be completed, then you can make a DLC, even a Companion DLC, that much deeper. 

I would like to see Bioware work on any DLC they have until a month after release. Day 31 DLC, if you will. At which point, players would return in droves to download your DLC... since they have invested the money already to do so. It will increase DLC sales, it will keep the player fanbase from being angry or upset, it will increase the quality and length of the first DLC to be sold and it will make Bioware more money. Best of all, while pre-release hype is used to sell just the one Day One DLC, this hype could instead be used to sell a discount, a discount which will help ALL future DLC be sold. 

I don't see any downsides to this option. Especially compared to the thorny and questionably effective DLC model Bioware currently uses.

[wsandista]

I could see this working. Especially if instead of having day 1 DLC, there is a day 1 patch that spares us from some of the worst bugs.

[Fast Jimmy]

wsandista wrote...

I could see this working. Especially if instead of having day 1 DLC, there is a day 1 patch that spares us from some of the worst bugs.

I can't say I don't disagree with this. The face import issue with ME3 is something that should have never made it out the door.

[goofyomnivore]

I'm surprised EA doesn't have like a BioWare pass or something where if you throw down 10$ or whatever for the Day 1 DLC you will get like three day early access to the game via digital download through psn, xbox marketplace, origin and 20% off of all the future DLC that comes out for that game.

Is it perfect nah, but at least that Day 1 DLC ticket we pay for has some extra value.

Modifié par strive, 24 septembre 2012 - 01:12 .

[Sejborg]

Paying extra to get a discount hurts my brain.

I don't know. It might work.

[Volus Warlord]

Day Two DLC?

[Fast Jimmy]

Sejborg wrote...

Paying extra to get a discount hurts my brain.

I don't know. It might work.

Honestly, all the discussion of Kickstarter got me thinking about it. Currently, a donor can give less money than what they would pay when the game is actually released. Which made me wonder why pre-orders usually cost MORE for AAA games. After all, shouldn't they reward players for putting money down before the game is even out?

Of course, the reward system currently is to give them Day One DLC, but as we can see that is very thorny. Why not offer a discount to future DLC purchases instead?

[TK514]

Nah.

D1 DLC is fine. Them holding on to it for an arbitrary number of days just so people can pretend it wasn't ready is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting la la la la la.

From a sales perspective, D1 is less risky and cost less in marketing. They get people to by it before the consumer can potentially be disappointed by the base product, can include it as a preorder of Collector's edition perk instead of creating something entirely new, and only have to worry about minimal additional marketing. Given all the advantages, combined with the fact tha many people who complain are going to buy it anyway, and there's pretty much no downside to them continuing as they are.

As for your idea to include discounts for potential future DLC? No thanks. I'd rather pay for something I know will be released and that I will at least use once, instead of hoping I like the product enough that I will have any interest by the time additional DLC is released. Assuming said DLC is released at all.

Using ME 3 as an example, that would be wasted money on my part because I hated no interest in any future DLC due to the poor quality of the base product. In the case of DA2, I'd have lost value because they cancelled planned DLC due to poor consumer response and starting work on DA3.

Paying in advance for something I may never use, or have the opportunity to use, is a waste of money in my book.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

In the case of ME3, I doubt you will have future Bioware products that so completely invalidate the game experience in the future. Not many have any interest in playing any of it's DLC, period, since it leaves the entire universe in a state where no future DLC can happen, and the assets gained during DLC pre-ending are worthless or, at the least, the same that can be gained with an hour of multiplayer.

That being said, there would be more value than just the discount with Collector's Edition (just like there is more value than just the Day One DLC Companion like Sebastian or Javik). Goodies, weapon packs, special features like the Black Emporium - all of it is a good incentive (for some players) to get the special, more expensive game. If these bonuses PLUS the DLC discount were all included, I guarantee you it would be a good deal for many players.

That said, are you the type of player who buys the Collector's Edition, TK? If not, then (no offense) you aren't the target demographic. I'm not trying to sell more Collector's Editions. But if a good chunk of people who bought a CE version would then be hooked to buy every DLC, it could make Bioware a lot of money and, in turn, no one would be upset about Day One DLC and fans would still be getting a worthwhile bonus.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 septembre 2012 - 03:37 .

[SteveGarbage]

I think the big issue here is the paying.

For a non collector edition buyer having to pay extra for Javik is different than people getting Shale or Sebastian for free.

I think the bonus of the free day-one DLC is you deprive pirates of the content. I'm not 100 percent sure, but isn't it more difficult for pirates to activate the DLC content than cracking and playing the game? I haven't really looked into that issue too much, but I know there were friends of mine who played Origins without Shale because they pirated it.

However, at the same time, that screws the person who buys the game used off eBay or at Gamestop or whatever, which is good financially for BioWare but screws the gamer.

[Fast Jimmy]

Project 10 Dollar, the iniative EA started to include DLC to prefer pirates and used copy sales through DLC that would require registering and paying $10 for used copies, pretty much sealed the deal on EA having SOMETHING on release that would reward players who bought their copies versus pirating or buying them used. This originally took the form of free Day One DLC, but has since been changed to charging for said DLC. Now they have multiplayer for every game iniative to get everyone registered with a legit copy, so they can now charge for the DLC.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
A player who has spent an extra $10 to get, say, Javik, will play one playthrough with him and could likely shelve your game, never to be played or talked about again. But a player who spent $10 to get a discount on future DLC? That player would buy Javik at a discount, then buy Leviathan at a discount, then buy Omega at a discount... because if the money they had spent to get them the discounted rate would be lost if they don't use it, then the consumer will be extremely motivated to buy and play every DLC that is released.

That's not guaranteed, though. And I see a few of issues with this strategy:

1) If the collectors edition comes bundled with other extras, then the player might be paying for those, and may not give a crap about future DLC, discounted or otherwise.

2) If the player doesn't like the game, they're not going to buy the DLC, even at a discount, when they could spend it on other things.

3) Even if the player does like the game, they may never complete it/lose interest upon completion, move onto a new one, and forget all about DLC. In fact, this already happens, and always has happened.

4) Generally, the people who complain about DLC also dislike the concept of Collector's Editions, so they're not going to pay for either.

I don't feel like this really solves the issue that Day One DLC exists to combat in the first place; namely, that people's interest drops off extremely quickly. Having a discount doesn't make a difference if most people don't want the DLC anyway. And if they can't release it on Day One, then when is an acceptable time to release it so that they can maximise profits without being seen as greedy crooks?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 septembre 2012 - 04:29 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^
In regards to all of your above four points, this all works out in favor of Bioware, since they get to pocket that extra $10 without having to sell the consumer anything other than the discount and other goodies they are already giving us with Collector's Editions. If the player isn't engaged or interested enough, Bioware still gets their money. So no harm, no foul. Instead, if a player gets the discount and uses it to its full advantage, that player will be hooked for all of your DLC. I'd be interested to see how many players bought Javik as opposed to how many bought Leviathan. In my model, both would be post-release DLC and would have increased chances of being bought by players with the discount.

I'd disagree about the discount not affecting peope's decision to buy a DLC they wouldn't want. My biggest problem with DLC most times is a lopsided cost-to-benefit ratio. A standard $60 game has 50+ hours of content, more than half a dozen companions and tons of weapons/equipment. A $10 DLC with two hours worth of content and one extra companion doesn't really equal a sixth of the original game's worth. But f the discount was, say, 50%, that would drop the price to $5. Suddenly, that becomes worthwhile to me, as it is much closer to the original game's cost-to-benefit ratio.

I think people's interest drops off even more quickly with Day One DLC, since it can be month's afte that DLC is released before anyhing new comes out for that game. if you instead have DLC come out a month after release (my ideal time for the first DLC to appear), it is still relevant to the gamer. Instead, DA2, ME2 and ME3 all had their first, true, paid Story DLC come out nearly six months after their respective releases. So, OF COURSE gamer interest will be waning. If, instead, you don't release the same DLC you would usually do as Day One, but instead spend an extra month building on it, fleshing the companion (as is often the case with the Day One DLC) out, give appropriate relevance to the main plot so that it would actually affect the story if you add this piece in, then I think that would do wonders for adding longevity to your game. Rather than just doing the Day One DLC at release that doesn't come across as anything truly special.

[Plaintiff]

Well, you've obviously thought this through. It wouldn't hurt to give it a try, I suppose. If it didn't work the way they wanted, they could always go back to the previous model.

[robertm2]

great idea but fat chance. my bet is the day 1 dlc will be a major story plot involving morrigan so ea can rake in the extra cash. depend on it being very important to the story, costing at least 10$, being available on day 1, and then having mods defend it by saying "its like having pickles on a hamburger its not required its just something extra for people who want it" when they know damn well its a major part of the story and you are missing out on alot if you dont buy it.

i agree with the whole over priced dlc thing. if my game last me 30 hours and cost me 60$ how is it that your 2 hour dlc costs me 10$? the math just does not stack up and dont feed my that whole "we are just trying to make ends meet bs". bioware games make millions of dollars and a very sizable amount of that is pure profit. im not against dlc but i will not buy it if i feel like i am not getting my moneys worth and i will not be suckered in to buying day 1 dlc that is made to be important so more people will buy it. 

Modifié par robertm2, 24 septembre 2012 - 05:10 .

[Atalanta]

The Kickstarter model is really interesting (giving early backers of projects the complete, finished product at a discounted rate, usually with added DLC bonuses), and I think that eventually, traditional publishers are going to have to imitate that to an extent if they want to stay competitive and relevant.

That would probably happen much faster if people who didn't like the idea of Day 1 DLC simply didn't purchase it within a month or two of launch. The reason publishers like EA are embracing the current model is because of games like DA: O, where a huge portion of DLC sales came at the same time as the initial game purchase. The only way that practice would stop at this point is if it would be financially beneficial for them to do so.

I'm one of the people who have no problem with Day 1 DLC that BioWare has been putting out. If there's going to be extra content that wasn't able to be finished in time to ship with the game, I'd rather have the option to pay to be able to use that content on my first playthrough than to not have it at all. I do see where other people might take offense at it, though.

[robertm2]

Atalanta wrote...

The Kickstarter model is really interesting (giving early backers of projects the complete, finished product at a discounted rate, usually with added DLC bonuses), and I think that eventually, traditional publishers are going to have to imitate that to an extent if they want to stay competitive and relevant.

That would probably happen much faster if people who didn't like the idea of Day 1 DLC simply didn't purchase it within a month or two of launch. The reason publishers like EA are embracing the current model is because of games like DA: O, where a huge portion of DLC sales came at the same time as the initial game purchase. The only way that practice would stop at this point is if it would be financially beneficial for them to do so.

I'm one of the people who have no problem with Day 1 DLC that BioWare has been putting out. If there's going to be extra content that wasn't able to be finished in time to ship with the game, I'd rather have the option to pay to be able to use that content on my first playthrough than to not have it at all. I do see where other people might take offense at it, though.

i agree with you on most of this but its not that the content was not able to be put into the game. they could have easily implemented it. it was always meant to be day 1 dlc. to think that halfway through developement they thought hey lets make a prothean character with a short story, record all of his dialogue, and give him a mission! but it will take a few more weeks than the rest of the game so lets sell it seperatly. even if they couldnt fit it in the game in time zaeed was free with a new copy of me2 along with a few extra missions and weapons that were included in the cerberus network. there was no reward for buying me3 new. not that people are entitled to one but if you do something great once and then take it away and charge people for it the next time some backlash and unhappy fans who begin to question your company.

[Vandicus]

Atalanta wrote...

The Kickstarter model is really interesting (giving early backers of projects the complete, finished product at a discounted rate, usually with added DLC bonuses), and I think that eventually, traditional publishers are going to have to imitate that to an extent if they want to stay competitive and relevant.

That would probably happen much faster if people who didn't like the idea of Day 1 DLC simply didn't purchase it within a month or two of launch. The reason publishers like EA are embracing the current model is because of games like DA: O, where a huge portion of DLC sales came at the same time as the initial game purchase. The only way that practice would stop at this point is if it would be financially beneficial for them to do so.

I'm one of the people who have no problem with Day 1 DLC that BioWare has been putting out. If there's going to be extra content that wasn't able to be finished in time to ship with the game, I'd rather have the option to pay to be able to use that content on my first playthrough than to not have it at all. I do see where other people might take offense at it, though.

I'm still wavering over whether to go with the 25$ version or the CE for project Eternity. I normally always go for CEs but this one seems particularly lackluster. Without any sort've special dlc attached to the CE the $25 dollar version is so much cheaper that its hard to resist choosing that one.

[Atalanta]

robertm2 wrote...
i agree with you on most of this but its not that the content was not able to be put into the game. they could have easily implemented it. it was always meant to be day 1 dlc. to think that halfway through developement they thought hey lets make a prothean character with a short story, record all of his dialogue, and give him a mission! but it will take a few more weeks than the rest of the game so lets sell it seperatly. even if they couldnt fit it in the game in time zaeed was free with a new copy of me2 along with a few extra missions and weapons that were included in the cerberus network. there was no reward for buying me3 new. not that people are entitled to one but if you do something great once and then take it away and charge people for it the next time some backlash and unhappy fans who begin to question your company.

That's true, they could give it away for free. That would definitely help in retaining customer loyalty and rebuilding the BioWare brand that has taken some pretty big hits lately (probably an understatement, heh).

I justify the added cost to myself by choosing to believe that the money helps BioWare continue making games that I enjoy. Though after learning that EA took a whopping 70% of the profits from Amular: Reckoning while the studio spiraled down into bankruptcy (and ultimately shut down), that justification is slipping. I don't know the specifics of whether EA normally takes that large of a cut or whether 38 Studios was an exception, but yikes.

[Fast Jimmy]

robertm2 wrote...
(snip)

While I don't want to sound cynical, I do find it odd that Bioware just didn't have time for a companion with all five of their last releases. I understand schedules are tight and things must be cut... but to have a companion not meet that deadline every time? That seems... highly suspicious. Why is it never a set of side missions that don't make the cut? Or multiplayer options? Or a multitude of other things? Because the likelhood of a companion being nearly completed, but scraped the last mlinute due to timing in the last five games either suggests planning for it to happen or consistently poor management in the companion development cycle.

However, I don't want this to turn into a thread discussing the merits or faults of Day One DLC, unless it pertains to the new model I have suggested. The D1DLC topic has been beaten to death.

[wsandista]

Fast Jimmy's idea>>>>>>>>>>>>Day 1 DLC.

[Atalanta]

Vandicus wrote...
I'm still wavering over whether to go with the 25$ version or the CE for project Eternity. I normally always go for CEs but this one seems particularly lackluster. Without any sort've special dlc attached to the CE the $25 dollar version is so much cheaper that its hard to resist choosing that one.

I'm still debating on whether I'm going to back Project Eternity, but if I do I will probably just go with the $25 version too. I might wait a bit longer and see if they annouce who is composing the soundtrack, because if I remember correctly, that's what you get with the next pledge level. 

As an aside, I finally got around to playing another game I backed on Kickstarter over the weekend, FTL: Faster Than Light and had a blast. My wifey isn't into video games AT ALL, but she played it for 6 hours yesterday nonstop, with a big grin on her face. So that small purchase was totally worth it, haha.

[Fast Jimmy]

wsandista wrote...

Fast Jimmy's idea>>>>>>>>>>>>Day 1 DLC.

I'd like to think so. And not just for gamers, but for Bioware as well. 

From a strictly business point of view, I'm really surprised an idea like this hasn't been floated in the past. 

[Atalanta]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Fast Jimmy's idea>>>>>>>>>>>>Day 1 DLC.

I'd like to think so. And not just for gamers, but for Bioware as well. 

From a strictly business point of view, I'm really surprised an idea like this hasn't been floated in the past. 

Yeah, I really like your idea. Would you suggest that the digital deluxe type of  editions come with the DLC discount too?

I'd also like to see them continue working on DLC for at least 20-30 days after release. I would think that a really high-quality initial DLC would make people hungry for more and more likely to purchase later ones - rather than being resentful of a Day 1 purchase. No matter how you dress it up, a lot of consumer are always going to feel like they just shelled out an extra $10 for a game they just spent a great deal of money on.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I think the digital deluxe editions would be smart to include this with too. For the best consumer experience, it would be cool to also offer the ability for people who pre-ordered to upgrade to the DLC Discount at a later date, since after all, pre-orders are money in the bank for a developer. But I'm not sure of exactly how that would look.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 septembre 2012 - 06:29 .