407 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

in a kill or be killed situation is highly rationalized subjectivity. There is no way to know exactly what millions of beings feels at the same time you do, just because YOU do.

Destroy does NOT rid the MEU of the reaper threat, as it's really all about just left over reaper technology that organics tend to scarf up as easy finds/gold rush items. Part of that hunting gather instinct..utilized by the catalyst. In one form or another, some form of advance Ai will venture out of it to question the politics of the day. They'll find out we destroyed them because of it once(or more) before and the chaos will recurr. Its the pattern...over billions of years in evidence.

[Xilizhra]

I respectively disagree. I think there is a difference between a chain of command and military making tactical decisions and that of making strategic decisions which should not be left to the military. On a side not Eliot Cohen wrote a great book called "Supreme Command: Soldiers, Statesmen and Leadership" and it debates who should make the big decisions, the military or the political leadership. Sorry off topic

Personally, while taking control of an enemy fleet and genetic alteration don't seem to have hardline prohibitions against them, I'd say that a decision to commit genocide should never be made by anyone.

Did I not say "surviving"? I'm pretty sure I said "surviving". Do you no longer remember this?

And EDI is the only one that Destroy has to leave dead. The Quarians defeated the Geth in my playthrough, and won back their homeworld on their own terms.

Ah, so the geth have been pre-genocided for your convenience? I suppose that reduces the impact of this if you were already evil.

Right, so now you're contradicting your previous argument, which implied that you were worried about those that died. Now you're saying they need to respect the chain of command. Either the races you recruit are willing to do everything it takes to stop the Reapers, at the cost of their own lives, or they're not - you can't have it both ways.

And in any case, you're wrong. The indivudal races all signed up for the war effort believing they were in a kill or be killed situation, that they were fighting for the survival of their species, and they were willing and ready to give their lives fighting for the cause. They're fighting for a chance at a free future, and preserving their way of life. They're fighting to stop the Reapers once and for all.

What they're NOT fighting for is for someone to arbitarily make a decision on their behalf which irrevocably changes everything they are and everything they know, or to simply replace one AI controlling the Reapers with another AI controlling the Reapers.

I can only make one assumption about all of them, and that's that they want the war to end by some means. I'm sure most of them are thinking about it in terms of destroying the Reapers, but they don't know that there are other options. Ultimately, they'll be better off under any of them than they had been during the war. And if any of them were fighting for geth genocide specifically, well, I'll disregard them.

[ElSuperGecko]

Wayning_Star wrote...
Destroy does NOT rid the MEU of the reaper threat, as it's really all about just left over reaper technology that organics tend to scarf up as easy finds/gold rush items. Part of that hunting gather instinct..utilized by the catalyst. In one form or another, some form of advance Ai will venture out of it to question the politics of the day. They'll find out we destroyed them because of it once(or more) before and the chaos will recurr. Its the pattern...over billions of years in evidence.

All of that is pure, indulgent speculation, not fact.

The FACTS are:

Destroy:  Reapers dead.
Control:  Reapers alive.
Synthesis:  Reapers alive.

Ergo, Destroy ends the Reaper threat totally completely.  Control and Synthesis do not.  QED.

[Xilizhra]

Of course, Destroy leaves the general synthetic threat open and wipes out all synthetic life in the immediate vicinity, so, yeah.

Also, the Leviathans are alive and unchecked in Destroy. As might be the krogan.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 septembre 2012 - 02:13 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, so the geth have been pre-genocided for your convenience? I suppose that reduces the impact of this if you were already evil.

Nothing evil about it.  Legion was never reactivated in my playthrough, as having an active Geth running around on the Normandy was considered extremely dangerous.  I took the advice of my crew.

Therefore, the distinction between the Geth and Heretic Geth was never made.

Tali had been a staunch ally and supporter throughout my prior campaigns (most of which were fought against the Geth), so I naturally sided with them and helped them win back their homeworld.  There was nothing convenient about it.

If you took another path, well, you'll have to live with the consequences of your own actions, won't you?

I can only make one assumption about all of them, and that's that they want the war to end by some means. I'm sure most of them are thinking about it in terms of destroying the Reapers, but they don't know that there are other options. Ultimately, they'll be better off under any of them than they had been during the war. And if any of them were fighting for geth genocide specifically, well, I'll disregard them.

You're right, they don't know that there are other options.  They didn't know there were other options when they signed up to the effort, and neither did you.

So will you betray them and their trust by choosing at the last second to forego the orginal plan and elevate yourself to what is essentially an AI god?  Or by doing something that can impact them so unexpectedly, so deliberately, so profoundly, and so completely that their way of life, who they and the very universe they exist in is changed forever?

Again, that's up to you, and you'll have to live with the consequences of your actions.

Personally, I wasn't swayed by 30-second last-ditch attempts to switch my focus, confuse me and change my mind.  I stuck to the orginal plan.  I held the line.  And now the species of the galaxy are free.  Free to rebuild, free to evolve, free to decide their OWN fate, instead of having it imposed on them.

[zioninzion]

Why is it such a far fetched idea that the star-brat is lying about control and synthesis. If someone wants to think all the IT points going back through the game are desperate attempts, then thats fine (altho I disagree). But why is it so hard to accept the idea that the star-brat is lying. He isnt Alec Trebec asking which category you want and for how much. He is a genocidal maniac with some theory that is full of holes.

[Wayning_Star]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
Destroy does NOT rid the MEU of the reaper threat, as it's really all about just left over reaper technology that organics tend to scarf up as easy finds/gold rush items. Part of that hunting gather instinct..utilized by the catalyst. In one form or another, some form of advance Ai will venture out of it to question the politics of the day. They'll find out we destroyed them because of it once(or more) before and the chaos will recurr. Its the pattern...over billions of years in evidence.

All of that is pure, indulgent speculation, not fact.

The FACTS are: As you provide of course.

Destroy:  Reapers dead. Nope,they're just out of the big picture for while. MEU still survives off their tech.
Control:  Reapers alive. Nope,they're sheps ego, the tech cannot be controlled. But the harvest is offline.
Synthesis:  Reapers alive. Nope, they're transformed/altered, not reapers anymore. No more harvest.

Ergo, Destroy ends the Reaper threat totally completely.  Control and Synthesis do not.  QED.

according to lore'n facts, the reaper threat still exists because we cannot destroy that what is part of ourselves in the MEU, as LONG as it's part of ourselves. That's the problem with the reapers and their technology. It's been going on for countless cycles, eventually they'll return in one form or another to stop the chaos between synthetics and organics. The only way to destroy technology is to destroy technology..completely. No holds barred, once that apex is reached. Even the Geth peace between the Quarians was bartered with acceptance and the fact that the Geth are introverted, that is, they'll build their homeworldship and ignore eveyone else,eventually. So says the Geth anyway. Quarians seems to agree with that assumption as well. The Geth did agree to help with restoring the Quarian home world first tho, to make ammends. They liked the fact that the Quarians didn't destroy them. Edi would probably like that option as well.

[Xilizhra]

If you took another path, well, you'll have to live with the consequences of your own actions, won't you?

I have. The geth are helping the quarians rebuild Rannoch.

So will you betray them and their trust by choosing at the last second to forego the orginal plan and elevate yourself to what is essentially an AI god? Or by doing something that can impact them so unexpectedly, so deliberately, so profoundly, and so completely that their way of life, who they and the very universe they exist in is changed forever?

If necessary to save lives? Yes.

Personally, I wasn't swayed by 30-second last-ditch attempts to switch my focus, confuse me and change my mind. I stuck to the orginal plan. I held the line. And now the species of the galaxy are free. Free to rebuild, free to evolve, free to decide their OWN fate, instead of having it imposed on them.

Until the Leviathans enthrall everyone, the krogan conquer everyone, and that disregards all the ones you murdered.

Why is it such a far fetched idea that the star-brat is lying about control and synthesis. If someone wants to think all the IT points going back through the game are desperate attempts, then thats fine (altho I disagree). But why is it so hard to accept the idea that the star-brat is lying. He isnt Alec Trebec asking which category you want and for how much. He is a genocidal maniac with some theory that is full of holes.

If it wanted me dead, it could have just left me lying there without lifting me up to its chamber.

[Enhanced]

zioninzion wrote...

Why is it such a far fetched idea that the star-brat is lying about control and synthesis. If someone wants to think all the IT points going back through the game are desperate attempts, then thats fine (altho I disagree). But why is it so hard to accept the idea that the star-brat is lying. He isnt Alec Trebec asking which category you want and for how much. He is a genocidal maniac with some theory that is full of holes.

It's far fetched because the writing and script suggests that he's telling truth. The content in 2 DLCs even support what the Catalyst tells Shepard. If you still don't believe him, you can choose Refuse.

 With that said, I don't think you can assume that he's lying about Control and Synthesis, but he's conviently completely truthful about Destroy. If he's lying, he'd would most likely lie about Destroy. Unless the Crucible somehow makes him tell Shepard about every option, why would he even bring it up?

Modifié par Enhanced, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:08 .

[Dharvy]

 What's the difference in Control from having a galactic fleet in the form of Reapers keeping everyone in check vs say your local government keeping you in check? Is there not some form of government above another form?

And in Control, the Reapers and Shepard could just be a war deterrents, so the galactic disputes will have to be solved without conflict that escalates into war, so they'll have to find a way to amicably solve their problems. Free will do not have to be challenged unless you all really are just arguing for free will to be able to choose to be criminal or not. Do anyone feel their free will is taken from them because they can't rape, murder, and steal at their leisure? Would there not always be laws and rules to protect the many from free will of criminal intentions?

Some are acting like a Control scenario wouldn't allow galactic governments to make decisions. It seems like it'll play out more like it won't allow those in power to make criminal decisions, much like local governments have on its decision makings with a higher level of government monitoring it.

In any case the same human or organic behavior that will be uneasy with Sheparlyst in Control and cause problems would be the near same organic behavior that would make it hard for governments to recover in a Destroy ending. All in all the Galaxy would be better off in the most positive happening of Control vs Destroy.

And stop trying to defend Destroy with the EC epilogue scenes, saying no it won't be bad, they'll rebuild, because Control and Synthesis have the same things going for them in there EC epilogue scenes.

Modifié par Dharvy, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:08 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Xilizhra wrote...
Until the Leviathans enthrall everyone, the krogan conquer everyone, and that disregards all the ones you murdered.

OK, so you can't form a logical counter-argument so are resorting to pure speculation.  Well done, that man.  Plus, These threats can just as easily exist in Control and Synthesis, in the Leviathan's case, possibly even more so.  At least following the Destroy ending, the races of the galaxy are free to deal with future threats on their own terms.

I'm sorry if the facts upset your convoluted self-serving headcanon, but I spoke the truth:

Destroy:  Reapers dead, cycle of extinction over, gone, ended forever.  Job done.
Control:  Reapers active.  Threat remains.  Let's hope you can actually control them, despite being dead.
Synthesis:  Reapers active.  Threat remains.  Let's hope you and haven't just effectively husked everyone.

QED.

[JBPBRC]

Xilizhra wrote...

 the krogan conquer everyone,

If they so much as tried to do a repeat of the Krogan Rebellions the Turians/Salarians would smack them down so hard the genophage would look like a birthday party.

[Xilizhra]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Until the Leviathans enthrall everyone, the krogan conquer everyone, and that disregards all the ones you murdered.

OK, so you can't form a logical counter-argument so are resorting to pure speculation.  Well done, that man.  Plus, These threats can just as easily exist in Control and Synthesis, in the Leviathan's case, possibly even more so.  At least following the Destroy ending, the races of the galaxy are free to deal with future threats on their own terms.

I'm sorry if the facts upset your convoluted self-serving headcanon, but I spoke the truth:

Destroy:  Reapers dead, cycle of extinction over, gone, ended forever.  Job done.
Control:  Reapers active.  Threat remains.  Let's hope you can actually control them, despite being dead.
Synthesis:  Reapers active.  Threat remains.  Let's hope you and haven't just effectively husked everyone.

QED.

The Reapers can far more easily deal with both threats, and my present-day-issues counterargument relied on you believing genocide was a bad thing. Which you don't. But apparently giving the government powerful ships is far worse than that. All right.

[Wayning_Star]

QED.[/quote]Destroy: Reapers dead, cycle of extinction over, gone, ended forever. Job done.[/quote]

OK, so you can't form a logical counter-argument so are resorting to pure speculation.


and that's all folks...

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

All of that is pure, indulgent speculation, not fact.

The FACTS are:

Destroy:  Reapers dead.
Control:  Reapers alive.
Synthesis:  Reapers alive.

Ergo, Destroy ends the Reaper threat totally completely.  Control and Synthesis do not.  QED.

Sure. But Destroy opens up opportunities for non-Reaper threats that don't exist in Control and Synthesis. In addition to being much worse in the dpshort term.

Modifié par AlanC9, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[CaIIisto]

AlanC9 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

All of that is pure, indulgent speculation, not fact.

The FACTS are:

Destroy:  Reapers dead.
Control:  Reapers alive.
Synthesis:  Reapers alive.

Ergo, Destroy ends the Reaper threat totally completely.  Control and Synthesis do not.  QED.

Sure. But Destroy opens up opportunities for non-Reaper threats that don't exist in Control and Synthesis.

Otherwise known as scope for future stories....

Destroy = canon.

[JBPBRC]

AlanC9 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

All of that is pure, indulgent speculation, not fact.

The FACTS are:

Destroy:  Reapers dead.
Control:  Reapers alive.
Synthesis:  Reapers alive.

Ergo, Destroy ends the Reaper threat totally completely.  Control and Synthesis do not.  QED.

Sure. But Destroy opens up opportunities for non-Reaper threats that don't exist in Control and Synthesis.

Actually, the possibility of non-Reaper threats exists in all endings. For all Shepard knows, an extragalactic armada of super organics (such as Species 8472 or the Yuuzhan Vong, as examples) is on the warpath to our galaxy and not even the Reapers will stand a chance against them. These choices really only impact the Reaper conflict.

[Wayning_Star]

Dharvy wrote...

 What's the difference in Control from having a galactic fleet in the form of Reapers keeping everyone in check vs say your local government keeping you in check? Is there not some form of government above another form?

And in Control, the Reapers and Shepard could just be a war deterrents, so the galactic disputes will have to be solved without conflict that escalates into war, so they'll have to find a way to amicably solve their problems. Free will do not have to be challenged unless you all really are just arguing for free will to be able to choose to be criminal or not. Do anyone feel their free will is taken from them because they can't rape, murder, and steal at their leisure? Would there not always be laws and rules to protect the many from free will of criminal intentions?

Some are acting like a Control scenario wouldn't allow galactic governments to make decisions. It seems like it'll play out more like it won't allow those in power to make criminal decisions, much like local governments have on its decision makings with a higher level of government monitoring it.

In any case the same human or organic behavior that will be uneasy with Sheparlyst in Control and cause problems would be the near same organic behavior that would make it hard for governments to recover in a Destroy ending. All in all the Galaxy would be better off in the most positive happening of Control vs Destroy.

And stop trying to defend Destroy with the EC epilogue scenes, saying no it won't be bad, they'll rebuild, because Control and Synthesis have the same things going for them in there EC epilogue scenes.

well the control by ONE and only one person, even Shepard, probably isn't the hot tip for conventional democratic society. Shep couldn't allow ideals that were different from its ethos. Shep isn't completely Shep in the form of a reaper, and its cargo couldn't be released because thats what they use for intellect. So all the other reaper ships would still contain their cargo of harvest.  In synthesis, they can be recovered as the reaper ethos is undone by it, as all things in the MEU are similar to a point enough to allowcate extraction and maintain free will. The harvested do not have any free will while within the reaper hulls. There intellect saved over the millena are still shackled via the reapershep.

[ElSuperGecko]

Wayning_Star wrote...
OK, so you can't form a logical counter-argument so are resorting to pure speculation.
and that's all folks...

Your argument is from your own headcanon, which disregards the entire endgame decision.  As such, I can safely ignore it.  "Destroy" destroys the Reapers.  That's the entire point.  Everything else is your own speculation.

Xilizhra wrote...
The Reapers can far more easily deal with both threats, and my present-day-issues counterargument relied on you believing genocide was a bad thing. Which you don't. But apparently giving the government powerful ships is far worse than that. All right.

Faulty logic on multiple levels, or once again pure speculation and headcanon.

One - the Reapers are not simply "powerful ships".  As seen multiple times over the course of the trilogy, they are entities of themselves.  Malevolent (by organic's standard) entities, capable of dominating the minds of lesser races.

Two - who controls them?  Not this "government" you're talking about.  In the "Control" ending, a being created from the conciousness of the dead Commander Shepard "controls" them.  In Synthesis, they're completely unshackled and free to pursue whatever agenda they wish.  NOTHING controls them.  Implications... unpleasant.

In either case, the "government" has little or no say in the matter, unless once again you're favouring your own headcanon over the actual facts.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[JBPBRC]

Wayning_Star wrote...

well the control by ONE and only one person, even Shepard, probably isn't the hot tip for conventional democratic society. Shep couldn't allow ideals that were different from its ethos.

Ironically, didn't we kill Udina because he tried taking over the government and putting himself in charge of everything? He had noble intentions too, saving Earth.

[AlanC9]

Bester76 wrote...

Sure. But Destroy opens up opportunities for non-Reaper threats that don't exist in Control and Synthesis.

Otherwise known as scope for future stories....

Destroy = canon.

Fine with me. I was pushing for DA:O's DR to be both canon and a disaster.

[Wayning_Star]

JBPBRC wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

All of that is pure, indulgent speculation, not fact.

The FACTS are:

Destroy:  Reapers dead.
Control:  Reapers alive.
Synthesis:  Reapers alive.

Ergo, Destroy ends the Reaper threat totally completely.  Control and Synthesis do not.  QED.

Sure. But Destroy opens up opportunities for non-Reaper threats that don't exist in Control and Synthesis.

Actually, the possibility of non-Reaper threats exists in all endings. For all Shepard knows, an extragalactic armada of super organics (such as Species 8472 or the Yuuzhan Vong, as examples) is on the warpath to our galaxy and not even the Reapers will stand a chance against them. These choices really only impact the Reaper conflict.

synthesis seems to alleviate the threats posed by unruly species, as they've become in part technological. So their rowdy behavior would/could be addressed via a more open communication by all vested parties. It's really unknown though,as to the secrecy races could impose on other races and vice versa, but the need for it may be lessened by cross compatibility. Thoretically. We are forced to rely on the rules of evolutionary advance and what that entails or doesn't...

[JBPBRC]

Wayning_Star wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

All of that is pure, indulgent speculation, not fact.

The FACTS are:

Destroy:  Reapers dead.
Control:  Reapers alive.
Synthesis:  Reapers alive.

Ergo, Destroy ends the Reaper threat totally completely.  Control and Synthesis do not.  QED.

Sure. But Destroy opens up opportunities for non-Reaper threats that don't exist in Control and Synthesis.

Actually, the possibility of non-Reaper threats exists in all endings. For all Shepard knows, an extragalactic armada of super organics (such as Species 8472 or the Yuuzhan Vong, as examples) is on the warpath to our galaxy and not even the Reapers will stand a chance against them. These choices really only impact the Reaper conflict.

synthesis seems to alleviate the threats posed by unruly species, as they've become in part technological. So their rowdy behavior would/could be addressed via a more open communication by all vested parties. It's really unknown though,as to the secrecy races could impose on other races and vice versa, but the need for it may be lessened by cross compatibility. Thoretically. We are forced to rely on the rules of evolutionary advance and what that entails or doesn't...

Actually, no. If they're extragalactic they're not half-organic half-synthetic since they are out of the range of the Crucible blast. Any threats posed by extragalactic species will have to be dealt with the old-fashioned way. Conventionally, or with DEM.

[Wayning_Star]

JBPBRC wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

well the control by ONE and only one person, even Shepard, probably isn't the hot tip for conventional democratic society. Shep couldn't allow ideals that were different from its ethos.

Ironically, didn't we kill Udina because he tried taking over the government and putting himself in charge of everything? He had noble intentions too, saving Earth.

wasn't he indoctrinated into serving some other purpose besides 'saving Earth'.  Udina fell victim to indoctrination,as that passion for protecting/advancing human interests(like TIM) made him vulnerable. Eventually his prorities were lost in the shuffle,as the indoctrination took hold. TIM was after his position on the citadel to further cerberus goals.

kind of a case where two idiots met..

edit: I tried to find a way not to kill Udina, eventhough he was a hateful old bugger.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 28 septembre 2012 - 03:59 .

[JBPBRC]

Wayning_Star wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

well the control by ONE and only one person, even Shepard, probably isn't the hot tip for conventional democratic society. Shep couldn't allow ideals that were different from its ethos.

Ironically, didn't we kill Udina because he tried taking over the government and putting himself in charge of everything? He had noble intentions too, saving Earth.

wasn't he indoctrinated into serving some other purpose besides 'saving Earth'.  Udina fell victim to indoctrination,as that passion for protecting/advancing human interests(like TIM) made him vulnerable. Eventually his prorities were lost in the shuffle,as the indoctrination took hold. TIM was after his position on the citadel to further cerberus goals.

kind of a case where two idiots met..

What? Indoctrinated? How? When? By what Reaper technology?

I was under the impression that all he did was cut a deal with Cerberus, not that he was indoctrinated.