407 réponses à ce sujet

[mauro2222]

Enhanced wrote...

There's now everlasting peace throughout the galaxy.

You're really naive don't you?

[Steelcan]

I disagree that Synthesis is not foreshadowed. After the Geth and Quarians make peace Tali says that Geth are being put into Quarian suits, combining synthetic life(geth) with organic(Quarian). That said destroy all the way

[mauro2222]

Steelcan wrote...

I disagree that Synthesis is not foreshadowed. After the Geth and Quarians make peace Tali says that Geth are being put into Quarian suits, combining synthetic life(geth) with organic(Quarian). That said destroy all the way

But the suits aren't part of their bodies, it's just a suit.

[Steelcan]

mauro2222 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I disagree that Synthesis is not foreshadowed. After the Geth and Quarians make peace Tali says that Geth are being put into Quarian suits, combining synthetic life(geth) with organic(Quarian). That said destroy all the way

But the suits aren't part of their bodies, it's just a suit.

. Also covered, she says that the suits are an integral part of who the Quarians are.  And the geth are interfacing with the suits to directly affect the organics under them

[mauro2222]

Steelcan wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I disagree that Synthesis is not foreshadowed. After the Geth and Quarians make peace Tali says that Geth are being put into Quarian suits, combining synthetic life(geth) with organic(Quarian). That said destroy all the way

But the suits aren't part of their bodies, it's just a suit.

. Also covered, she says that the suits are an integral part of who the Quarians are.  And the geth are interfacing with the suits to directly affect the organics under them

I think you overthinking this. It's an integral part because they die if they don't have it (outside of their planet of course), and is rather obvious that it affects them, the suit is an "enviro"-suit after all.

Modifié par mauro2222, 25 septembre 2012 - 01:27 .

[Steelcan]

mauro2222 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
I disagree that Synthesis is not foreshadowed. After the Geth and Quarians make peace Tali says that Geth are being put into Quarian suits, combining synthetic life(geth) with organic(Quarian). That said destroy all the way

But the suits aren't part of their bodies, it's just a suit.

. Also covered, she says that the suits are an integral part of who the Quarians are.  And the geth are interfacing with the suits to directly affect the organics under them

I think you overthinking this. It's an integral part because they die if they don't have it (outside of their planet of course), and is rather obvious that it affects them, the suit is an "enviro"-suit after all.

. Entirely possibly I'm over thinking this.  But it does seem this was ment to foreshadow synthesis, at least to me

[mauro2222]

Fine with me.

What the hell is wrong with my grammar? It's getting ridiculous lol.

[ElSuperGecko]

Wow, looks like this thread took off overnight...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Good man. Good man.

[Foolsfolly]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Reasoning?

Destroy:

The people who picked Destroy have done so based on three full games of empirical evidence that the Reapers need to be stopped, at all costs.  They have not lost sight of the fact that through these three games, the Reapers have always been the main antagonist, that the Reapers have wiped out countless galactic civilisations, have never shown any remorse or regret, and that every and all attempt to bargain, negotiate, work with or reason with them has been doomed to failure.  Above all, they have not lost sight of the fact that the Reapers have always attempted to manipulate organic races into working against their own kind, bringing about their own eventual demise.

Control:

The people who picked Control have done so after three full games of theorizing that it might be possible to manipulate the Reapers, to harness their technology, to ultimately stop them from harvesting the galaxy by working with them.  Theories that have spawned from Saren, from the Illusive Man, from various scientists and researchers.  These past attempts have been doomed to failure in each and every case, but the research has been done, the attempts have been made and the possibility may well be there.

Synthesis:

The people who picked Synthesis have done so after being introduced to the idea by the being that created the Reapers (and the entire cycle of extinction, and the horror the galaxy is currently facing) in the first place, and given less than a minute of sketchy dialogue and vague reassurances about the process in the last couple of minutes of the final game of the series.  There is no foreshadowing of this option, no empirical in-game evidence to draw from when you make the decision.  You are doing nothing more than taking a leap of faith, based on nothing more than the word of your greatest enemy (a being whose flawed logic lead it to think nothing of exterminating it's own creators), with the future of every living being in the galaxy riding on the outcome.

This is obvious.

But sometimes obvious things must be said. Dead Reapers is how you win this war.

[ElSuperGecko]

Eterna5 wrote...
Destroy is shortsighted, the galaxy will destroy itself via the construction of Synthetics.

LOL no, just because an AI with faulty logic that has butchered organics (including it's own creators) for countless millenia declares that it is so, doesn't make it so.

Ever heard of free will?  Self-determination?  Learning from the mistakes of the past?

Don't the various individual species of the galaxy deserve the right to create their own destiny, rather than having the flawed logic of a billion-year-old insane AI forced on them?  Isn't that how the Reaper mess started in the first place?

Hudathan wrote...
Without the ability to predict the future, destroy was the safest option for saving the galaxy. Commander Shepard doesn't have the luxury of comparing the endings with one another after the fact.

THANK YOU!  Some one with intelligence!

Foolsfolly wrote...
This is obvious.
But sometimes obvious things must be said. Dead Reapers is how you win this war.

Quoted for truth.  Honestly, some of the Synthesis advocates on this thread sound more indoctrinated than Saren - and the amusing thing is, they've done it to themselves! 

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:03 .

[Vigilant111]

Eterna5 wrote...

You had to trust that he wasn't lying about  a small tube would blow up all the reapers.

@Eterna5 and RiouHotaru

You are not listening

People built the Crucible, the Admiral asked me to fire the Crucible, I am obliged to trust them, my trust is to my people, not to the Catalyst, however misguided or forced faith you think this is

Trust has no meaning in the Catalyst's mind, because the Crucible still fires even if you do not trust it should you choose to select one of the options presented

Modifié par Vigilant111, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:07 .

[Argolas]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

You had to trust that he wasn't lying about  a small tube would blow up all the reapers.

@Eterna5 and RiouHotaru

You are not listening

People built the Crucible, the Admiral asked me to fire the Crucible, I am obliged to trust them, my trust is to my people, not to the Catalyst, however misguided or forced faith you think this is

Trust has no meaning in the Catalyst's mind, because the Crucible still fires even if you do not trust it should you choose to select one of the option presented

Indeed. When did reaper kid ever tell us that shooting the tube will kill the reapers? There is simply a cutscene of Anderson doing it, like the flashbacks that come after that. It is rather like Shepard figured out how to do it himself.

[zioninzion]

Apologies if this was mentioned before as I did not read all 7 pages but lets look at why we have this war in ME3. We have a war because one specie or catalyst-ghostchild is trying to play god. For millenia and more, one entity believes they know better and that they can control the future and evolution by taking decision into their own hands and playing god and deciding the fate for others. That is what this war is about although we don't learn that till the very end.

Therefore picking control is doing exactly the same thing the reapers have been doing for millenia albeit in a slightly different fashion. It is one person playing god over others and that is wrong. This is what makes control the worst option.

Free will trumps everything. Ofcourse a star child who has been committing genocide on the levels we cant comprehend for the past billion years will tell you that "organics are doomed to repeat themselves". That is his whole raison d'etre. But free will always provides the opportunity for change. And no doubt the reaper war will change the universe forever.

We fought this war to stop a specie playing god and now were going to end it by handing the reigns over to someone else to play god? Ridiculous if you ask me.

Plus Shepard implicitly argues against this when he first begins talking to the catalyst. So why would Shepard be convinced after one sentence of discussion? He wouldnt be.

[ElSuperGecko]

zioninzion wrote...
...so why would Shepard be convinced after one sentence of discussion? He wouldnt be.

More truth!

The Catalyst discusses the Synthesis option for less than a minute in total.  It gives us barely any information on the process and the vaguest of assurances that it is the "perfect solution".

(solution to what, exactly?  A problem that only exists in it's own faulty logic?  That we have no evidence for, unless we take into account the Catalyst's own actions?)

Let's not forget that the Catalyst's previous "perfect solution" was to exterminate it's own creators, create the Reapers and set in motion a cycle of extinction that would harvest all advanced organic life every 50,000 years or so.

Synthesis is not an idea put forward by Shepard, by Hackett, by Liara, by Mordin, by EDI, by any of your squadmates or allies.  It is an idea presented to you by the AI which controls the Reapers.

So, is 30 seconds of being told "it'll work, it'll be fine, trust me" by the being which created the nightmare the galaxy is currently facing in the first place enough to sway Shepard's convictions?  To make Shepard do something which will have an unknown effect on every living being in the entire galaxy?

In some peoples cases, I guess so.  Maybe they're just easily led.

[Darth_Trethon]

You missed one....

Destroy>Control>Reject>>>>>>>(infinitely many better than symbols go here)>>>Synthesis

[Argolas]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

zioninzion wrote...
...so why would Shepard be convinced after one sentence of discussion? He wouldnt be.

More truth!

The Catalyst discusses the Synthesis option for less than a minute in total.  It gives us barely any information on the process and the vaguest of assurances that it is the "perfect solution".

(solution to what, exactly?  A problem that only exists in it's own faulty logic?  That we have no evidence for, unless we take into account the Catalyst's own actions?)

Let's not forget that the Catalyst's previous "perfect solution" was to exterminate it's own creators, create the Reapers and set in motion a cycle of extinction that would harvest all advanced organic life every 50,000 years or so.

Synthesis is not an idea put forward by Shepard, by Hackett, by Liara, by Mordin, by EDI, by any of your squadmates or allies.  It is an idea presented to you by the AI which controls the Reapers.

So, is 30 seconds of being told "it'll work, it'll be fine, trust me" by the being which created the nightmare the galaxy is currently facing in the first place enough to sway Shepard's convictions?  To make Shepard do something which will have an unknown effect on every living being in the entire galaxy?

In some peoples cases, I guess so.  Maybe they're just easily led.

It is perfectly reasonable for Shepard to be convinced by a quick suggestion of the reaper overlord that has never been made or supported by anyone but indoctrinated Saren before. It is just as reasonable that he suddenly forgets what his friends would say (first link in my signature). Furthermore, the catalyst convinces him that everyone should become organic-synthetic hybrids just as the reapers are, that would make everything better.


A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends,
trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.

Modifié par Argolas, 25 septembre 2012 - 11:32 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Argolas wrote...
It is perfectly reasonable for Shepard to be convinced by a quick suggestion of the reaper overlord.....[/b]

I was deliberately trying to stay away from the topic of indoctrination.  Although I agree, the implications of Shepard being swayed from his original plan by 30 seconds of dialogue point steadily in that direction.

Apparently Bioware couldn't figure out a way to implement indoctrination as a gameplay mechanic (according to Final Hours), but it looks as though by simply giving players a last second choice they've had the desired effect...

[zioninzion]

There is a scene with Hackett where Shepard talks about how he is just a man, if I recall. Shepard is just a man. He may be super awesome and can take down Reaper scuttlefish but he is still just a man. His brain is no more developed than TIM. There was ample opportunity for Shepard to be indoctrinated or - due to his strong will - heading down that route. Fortunately for him he broke out of it just in time.......drum roll...ME4 and Shep rises from the rubble....

[Argolas]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Argolas wrote...
It is perfectly reasonable for Shepard to be convinced by a quick suggestion of the reaper overlord.....[/b]

I was deliberately trying to stay away from the topic of indoctrination.  Although I agree, the implications of Shepard being swayed from his original plan by 30 seconds of dialogue point steadily in that direction.

Apparently Bioware couldn't figure out a way to implement indoctrination as a gameplay mechanic (according to Final Hours), but it looks as though by simply giving players a last second choice they've had the desired effect...

It fits just too well IMO to simply leave it out. The reaper kid is manipulating Shepard, and as it commands the reapers, it will use reaper tech.

[RainbowDazed]

AlanC9 wrote...

RainbowDazed wrote...

Refusal
Telling Catalyst that it's insane by shooting it in the face is the only sensible thing to do. None of the choices offered are good enough to choose from. It's better to die fighting than to live as someones butt-monkey. 

Shepard's pride > the lives of every human, asari, turian, salarian, volus, .............

Yeah, right.

Yes, Right. 

Shepard was at the Crucible for a reason. She was the only being alive capable of doing the right choice. She has the guts to say that this is not good enough and live or die with that decision.

[MegaSovereign]

I'd pick refuse in one playthrough if I got to see my fleets go out guns blazing. Too bad it just cuts to Liara's bacon.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:09 .

[Hey]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'd pick refuse in one playthrough if I got to see my fleets go out guns blazing. Too bad it just cuts to Liara's bacon.

yeah,,, if they threw in a pinch of "awesome" i'd try it out - you know, death to everyone and all that...

[The Twilight God]

Destroy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Refuse>>>>>>>Control>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Synthesis


Destroy:

Pros
1. The demise of the Reapers does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
2. The demise of the Intelligence does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
3. The end of the Cycle of Extinction does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
4. The freedom to self-determinate does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
5. The continued coexistence of synthetics and organics does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
Cons
1. Relays are busted
2. Galactic civilization as we know it is isolated for the forseeable future

Refuse:

Pros
1. N/A (Next cycle wins. Not really a pro considering our cycle could have won.)
Cons
1. Shepard betrays the entire galaxy by hanging them out to dry
2. Everyone dies.

Control:

Pros
1. N/A (Relays fixed by Reapers...)
Cons
1. ...Doesn't matter because we won't be around much longer to appreciate the gesture.
2. Reapers still alive
3. Reapers get "Shepard code" upgardes
4. Harvest continues, but now Reapers have Microsoft Shepard 8 and are unstoppable.
5. Next cycle probably bites it since the Shrepards are too awesome to defeat

Synthesis

Pros
1. Maybe the Leviathans will step in and control everyone: organic and synthetic
2. Leviathan dictatorship preferrable to Reaperhood.
Cons
1. Indoctrinated slavery
2. Being harvested without putting up a fight
3. Being used as a massive "Collector" army against the next cycle.
4. Next cycle doomed.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:49 .

[Bill Casey]

Argolas wrote...

a quick suggestion of the reaper overlord that has never been made or supported by anyone but indoctrinated Saren before.

Incorrect...

Kai Leng
To You're using reaper tech - "And I'm stronger, we evolve or we die. Those are the options."

The Illusive Man
"Harness their essense to bring humanity to the very apex of evolution"
To You're turning your people into monsters - "Hardly, they're being improved"
"There's a better way forward, humanity can be so much more"
"This is the way humanity must evolve"
"There Earth. I wish you could see it like I do, Shepard. It's so... perfect."

Harbinger
"We will bring your species into harmony with our own"
“Evolution cannot be stopped”
"Embrace Perfection"
"We are the Harbinger of your ascendance"
"Progress cannot be halted"

Desolas Arterius
"I have a monolith too – And like his, mine is an evolution accelerator."
"Imagine a legion of turians – evolved to a state of ultimate physical perfection!"
"Nonsense! We’re pacifying the Meta-Turians. Recall the forces outside. I just need to… adjust the experiment."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 septembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[Bill Casey]

Enhanced wrote...

There's now everlasting peace throughout the galaxy.

Everlasting peace?

AssimilationPlot

Assimilation Plot

"I will bring peace to the world. Everlasting peace. And unity. And uniformity."
— The Cyber-Controller, Doctor Who, "The Age of Steel"

This trope refers to a common plot by the villains with a cause, wherein they reason that all of humanity's problems and unhappiness are caused by people being separate/different from one another, and so try to forcefully eliminate the differences and individuality of everyone by merging everyone into one mind/body/soul/etc. Basically, this is when villains use supernatural/Applied Phlebotinum means to make a Hive Mind because Utopia Justifies the Means, and is often done by a Well-Intentioned Extremist/Totalitarian Utilitarian/Knight Templar. This is how The Virus justifies itself, if sentient and possessing a Hive Mind.

Compare/contrast The Evils of Free Will, where the villains use force, brainwashing, and other things to systematically eliminate unique thinkers until everyone is basically a carbon copy, but remains an individual physically. A standard feature of pretty much every dystopia, ever. See The Singularity for a "natural" version where exponential technological change causes assimilation.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 septembre 2012 - 06:33 .