184 réponses à ce sujet

[Salaya]

Dragon Age 2 got rid of skills, implementing a pretty poor coercion system (of course, I didn't like it, I'm not saying is bad per se). Personally, I would be very grateful if you bring back all the skills, but my biggest concern is coercion. Is there any possibility to see it back again for DA3?

All I want is a system that makes me feel I invested some work on it; with Origins, you have to take decisions. Investing in coercion implies a renounce in other areas, as combat training or traps. Some modern games considered great successes, have implemented coercion abilties with ease (I'm thinking of Deus Ex: HR).

Why every part of growing the characters needs to be about combat abilties? Diplomacy, intimidating and such things, as part of the exp-point spending system, becomes very enjoyable precisely because as an option, it slows or directly hurts the main character combat expertise.

Is there anyone else who missed coercion and diplomacy?

[wsandista]

Skills should come back.

[Wulfram]

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

[Quicksilver26]

booyeahz give me my coercion back please +100

[Vandicus]

Wulfram wrote...

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

^This

I have mixed feelings about such systems in tabletop rpgs(substitute for real player interaction), in a video game it feels even weaker. People don't make skill checks to determine whether or not they're persuaded, its a simple question of whether or not the argument makes sense to them. If the skill system is reimplmented I feel it should not include the diplomacy/coercion type options.

[Maclimes]

Yes, bring them back, but do NOT interfere with combat skills for them.

I think there should be seperate pools of points for this. It would drive me crazy to say, "Well, I'd like to get the next level of combat talents, but I can't, because I need to dump a point into Coercion. Maybe next level."

It was frustrating, especially considering the combat-heavy nature of the DA series. I am all about, however, having a seperate set of skills that pull from a seperate pool of points. Allow us to invest in Persuade, Intimidate, or Seduce, or use those points for other, weird, non-combat stuff, like Crafting or Bargaining (get better deals at merchants).

[Kidd]

It would need to be better designed than the coercion skill in DAO for me to desire it coming back. I really liked how in DA2 we couldn't talk ourselves out of any situation that was out-talkable - we only had one of three persuasion options open to our characters at any time. Not only that, the dialogue options were based on previous talks instead of being based on mostly combat XP (bashing darkspawn heads to learn how to talk better feels odd to me).

I'm not opposed to the idea per se, but I'd rather not return to the four ranks in Coercion auto-win button we had in DAO which allowed us to talk ourselves out of every single possible dialogue in the game. If you weren't picking those skills up, you were essentially playing the game system wrong (which is a fine RP choice in itself, but skills should still be balanced against each other game-wise as well).

[wsandista]

Wulfram wrote...

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

That is why it should be like a skill roll from D&D. Higher ranks increase your chances, but the chance of failure is still there.

[Vandicus]

wsandista wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

That is why it should be like a skill roll from D&D. Higher ranks increase your chances, but the chance of failure is still there.

Ugh diplomacy in D&D from 3e is completely broken. Diplomancer ring any bells?

[Montana]

wsandista wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

That is why it should be like a skill roll from D&D. Higher ranks increase your chances, but the chance of failure is still there.

Precisely, I can't remember what the system was for DA2 but I remember thinking that I missed the DA:O system.

Coercion should never be an "I win button", but it should increase your chances and give alternate routes if you choose to put points into it.

[TsaiMeLemoni]

Wulfram wrote...

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

Not always. I am thinking right now of the Dalish/Werewolf skirmish in DA:O. You can use a few persuade or intimidate options when first talking with SwiftRunner, but you don't get your way. He still warns you away from the forest.

In the Dalish camp, if you try to open the chest behind the Keeper, his assistant will tell you to stop, and you have a Persuade option. When you choose this, she just tells you to stop lying to her and you can't get into the chest (until after the quest is over anyway).

I wouldn't mind seeing coercion come back, so long as you can continue to have situations where it won't work  no matter how leveled you are or whether or not you've unlocked all the available skill options for it.

[Kidd]

wsandista wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

That is why it should be like a skill roll from D&D. Higher ranks increase your chances, but the chance of failure is still there.

Random just leads to reloading. I remember succeeding a persuasion check in KotOR, dying and then failing the check when I played again. Just couldn't accept not winning it when I knew I could - I felt entitled to succeeding - so I kept resetting until I got lucky. Rolling works fine in PnP since there is no reload, but in cRPGs there is such a thing.

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

I wouldn't mind seeing coercion come back, so long as you can continue to have situations where it won't work  no matter how leveled you are or whether or not you've unlocked all the available skill options for it.

I don't agree with the idea that it leads to bad writing, but for those who don't want persuasion to be an I-win button, wouldn't that kinda go hand in hand with that option not being the go-to option? Meaning perhaps sometimes you'd actually be penalised for attempting persuasion. If the times persuasion don't work simply have the same effect as not attempting persuasion, then you will still hit it every time and get the "best" outcome.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 24 septembre 2012 - 05:38 .

[Messi Kossmann]

I agree it should stay out of combat skills.
Must be a different kind of skills, such as diplomacy and intimidation along with the skills to create armor, weapons, etc ...

[Lithuasil]

Coercion should never, ever, ever be a skill. Especially not with a "chance".
Coercion in videogames should be what Deus Ex HR promised (not that they kept it) - Observe your target and pick the dialogue choice that's most likely to appease them.

[wsandista]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

That is why it should be like a skill roll from D&D. Higher ranks increase your chances, but the chance of failure is still there.

Random just leads to reloading. I remember succeeding a persuasion check in KotOR, dying and then failing the check when I played again. Just couldn't accept not winning it when I knew I could - I felt entitled to succeeding - so I kept resetting until I got lucky. Rolling works fine in PnP since there is no reload, but in cRPGs there is such a thing.

The same could be said for combat, puzzles, etc, but those shouldn't be removed simply because you can reload.

Reloading shouldn't be considered when designing the game.

Modifié par wsandista, 24 septembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I want my Master Coercion back!

[Kidd]

wsandista wrote...

The same could be said for combat, puzzles, etc, but those shouldn't be removed simply because you can reload.

Reloading shouldn't be considered when designing the game.

Combat is so much more than just one, single die roll.

The risk of you rolling so badly you keep missing/getting glancing blows all fight long that you more or less can't win no matter how amazing your strategy is doesn't really exist. Or rather, it does, but it is abysmally small. Reloading combat has to do with attempting new strategies and applying your knowledge of the encounter to your new try at it, not getting a new shot at the dice. As for puzzles, I have trouble coming up with a single puzzle where randomisation is even an issue.

But for roll-based coercion, a single die roll is all there is. You cannot compare it to something as incredibly complex as a combat scenario.

[Masha Potato]

I agree

[Zack_Nero]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

Not always. I am thinking right now of the Dalish/Werewolf skirmish in DA:O. You can use a few persuade or intimidate options when first talking with SwiftRunner, but you don't get your way. He still warns you away from the forest.

In the Dalish camp, if you try to open the chest behind the Keeper, his assistant will tell you to stop, and you have a Persuade option. When you choose this, she just tells you to stop lying to her and you can't get into the chest (until after the quest is over anyway).

I wouldn't mind seeing coercion come back, so long as you can continue to have situations where it won't work  no matter how leveled you are or whether or not you've unlocked all the available skill options for it.

I don't know about that, with those examples it was a set in stone thing.  Didn't matter what your cercion skill level was.  I wouldn't really mind if it wasn't in the game to be honest.  If BioWare was to have the Dialouge wheel if you pick the correct respones or order to get what you want.

[Wulfram]

wsandista wrote...

That is why it should be like a skill roll from D&D. Higher ranks increase your chances, but the chance of failure is still there.

A skill roll just adds annoyance and arbitraryness.  The conversation is still as unnatural

edit:  Yes, there were occasions when [persuade] coulddn't work in Origins, and that was welcome.  But still, high coercion too often felt like jedi mind trick.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 septembre 2012 - 06:33 .

[Salaya]

I think that investing in Coercion, instead of combat skills, made the "win-win" situation of persuade rolls satisfying enough. There were many coercion attempts at dialogs in Origins, but not enough to consider it a cheap trick, since you had to fight wether you like it or not in many, many places. So, since you have chosen to grow your persuade skills, in some situations you have a clear advantage; but note that this not happens often.

You say that high coercion skills gave auto-win situations? Yes, but the prize or the number of this situations is scarce compared to combat. Also, why do you need to invest in coercion? It's an option, it's perfectly valid to roleplay a Warden without any persuading skills. In fact, you need to forget about coercion if you want a belivable trap crafter with survival skills and weapons expertise.

Coercion should be an option as it was, something you could you choose to invest to.

[challenger18]

Lithuasil wrote...

Coercion should never, ever, ever be a skill. Especially not with a "chance".
Coercion in videogames should be what Deus Ex HR promised (not that they kept it) - Observe your target and pick the dialogue choice that's most likely to appease them.

I actually agree with that. Figure out how to talk to people to get what you want (or of course you just look up the strategy guide to see what conversation paths to take). Still, it makes it more believable than

PC: Come on you know you wanna 

Random Person: ... OK

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Pff, I don't care if it's realistic or not. I just want everyone to bend to my will!

[challenger18]

And they will bend to your will ... if you work for that ****.

[InfinitePaths]

Yeah bring back the RPG elments plz