184 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

No, I like that certain skills only work for the right personality type.

[mickey111]

Filament wrote...

Not everyone was necessarily happy with DEHR's mode of persuasion, I've seen it described as just telling people what they want to hear instead of actually being persuasive with your own ideas.

Which would be totally like all of the Bioware Bioware games if HR included the same bull**** railroading requiring you to be gaming the system so that your skill can move to where you want it to be just one small increment at a time. In HR you could usually just speak your mind or make **** up whenever it suited your interests. The operative word here is "freedom".

[Cainhurst Crow]

Please, Bioware, do not bring back persuasion options as a skill. Please have them tied to some other aspect of the game such as the attributes, like cunning, strength, and willpower all having elevators in coercion and what your coercion response will be.

Do not have coercion as a seperate skill tree we can level up by putting in slots into it, and thus defeat the purpose of having challenging areas in the first place.

[LilyasAvalon]

I miss all my skills, I miss my RPG elements... I MISS MY POISONS AND TRAPS!

Also, to those people who say coercion skill is game breaking, GO AWAY. YOU'RE RUINING MAI FUN! D:

In all seriousness, half the fun of this is RPing certain ways to play the game.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 14 avril 2013 - 06:53 .

[10K]

I would like them to bring back all skills in general, or maybe make up some new ones. I really enjoyed the skills in DA:O, especally pickpocket. Leliana made me a fortune with this skill, would love it back;)

[SinerAthin]

The Coercion skill was boring. Static. It was a 'buy this I.WIN. social button' :/

I want the 'persuade' system from Deus Ex: Human Revolution!

You COULD buy upgrades to make it easier for you, but I found it much more fun to try to read and understand people's emotions and give it a shot myself

Filament wrote...

Not everyone was necessarily happy with
DEHR's mode of persuasion, I've seen it described as just telling people
what they want to hear instead of actually being persuasive with your
own ideas.

It was more like playing on their emotions to get what you wanted from them.

Good, old fashioned Rhetoric

Modifié par SinerAthin, 14 avril 2013 - 06:44 .

[Weskerr]

SinerAthin wrote...

The Coercion skill was boring. Static. It was a 'buy this I.WIN. social button' :/

I want the 'persuade' system from Deus Ex: Human Revolution!

You COULD buy upgrades to make it easier for you, but I found it much more fun to try to read and understand people's emotions and give it a shot myself

Filament wrote...

Not everyone was necessarily happy with
DEHR's mode of persuasion, I've seen it described as just telling people
what they want to hear instead of actually being persuasive with your
own ideas.

It was more like playing on their emotions to get what you wanted from them.

Good, old fashioned Rhetoric

That's what sociopaths do. 

[SinerAthin]

Weskerr wrote...


That's what sociopaths do. 

That's what every politician does.

And how would it be different from a Coercion system in DA:1, that's basically just a Jedi Mind trick like ability to get people to do what you want?

Modifié par SinerAthin, 14 avril 2013 - 06:47 .

[Weskerr]

SinerAthin wrote...

Weskerr wrote...


That's what sociopaths do. 

That's what every politician does.

And how would it be different from a Coercion system in DA:1, that's basically just a Jedi Mind trick like ability to get people to do what you want?

You won't hear any arguments from me concerning any of your points. It's funny - i remember in DE:HR in the very last pursuasion encounter you have with Darrow, he'll call you a sociopath for using that special augmentation ability that releases pheramones if you choose the wrong answer to his personality type. (BETA/OMEGA/ALPHA).

Modifié par Weskerr, 14 avril 2013 - 06:56 .

[LilyasAvalon]

mosesarose wrote...

I would like them to bring back all skills in general, or maybe make up some new ones. I really enjoyed the skills in DA:O, especally pickpocket. Leliana made me a fortune with this skill, would love it back;)

Pickpocket was indeed so much fun!

[Face of Evil]

Meh. It would only be worth bringing back Coercion if the skill system was greatly re-worked.

DAO's skill system was, for lack of a better term, a "false dilemma." The rest of the the skills were generally a ******-poor choice for slotting skill points into instead of Coercion, as they were either massively under-powered or you could accomplish the same goal by having a party member upgrade those skills instead.

Poison-making? Mediocre, and you only needed one point in it to actually use poisons. Trap-making? Vastly underpowered. Pickpocketing? Amusing, but generally useless. Survival? Don't make me laugh. Herbalism? Somewhat important, but you could just get one of your party members to max out the skill, which is what I did. Combat Training? Important a warrior or a rogue, but not so much for mages, and you didn't need to build it up that quickly.

But Coercion was practically essential to achieve a lot of the best outcomes in the game, so unless you were deliberately developing a character that was un-diplomatic, that was really the only option for skill points.

A system that offers no real choices also doesn't add any depth, and so I did not mourn the absence of the skill system in DA2 at all.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 14 avril 2013 - 07:21 .

[SinerAthin]

Filament wrote...

So, what Weskerr said. 

Yet nobody seems to be calling Obama a sociopath

Filament wrote...

To be fair, DA has an element of this as well with the influence system. Because rarely do you have persuade options with your companions, it's usually all about saying what they like.

In my opinion I can see both sides, I don't just want an "I win" button like a catch-all Coercion skill, but at the same time I don't want my character to just shamelessly pander to everyone to maximize profit. I want to be convincing of my own character's beliefs, but still have to say them the right way. Like if you have several stances you can take on a certain position (say, mage-templar), that's only the beginning of the persuasion attempt, and its success depends on how you defend the stance in ways they might find palatable or not (so if you defend a pro-templar stance mentioning the abomination threat it might be more effective than saying mages can't be trusted, for certain mage sympathetic NPCs). Of course sometimes opposing views might be irreconcilable.

This might be exactly how DEHR works, I dunno.

Problem with multiple stances is that it would be overly complex and require a lot of resources to implement.

And not every stance can be defended either, at least not in a five minute long conversation.


And what is the difference between a Coercion system and normal rhetorics? It is in the end all about getting what you want from the character you're dealing with.

Doesn't matter if you're a Saint convincing a criminal to abandon his path, or a schemer who turns brother against brother.

[Rawgrim]

I want lots of non-combat skills. RPGS arn`t all about combat.

[grumpymooselion]

I wouldn't mind if we had more social skills to invest in/ignore in general.

[Danny Boy 7]

Wulfram wrote...

Coercion type skills encourage poor writing IMO. You pick the "I win" persuade choice, and then the other guy does what you want. It usually feels more like a jedi mind trick than anything real.

This. IMHO Coercion, regardless of whether you have a point system makes it the I Winl button. Whenever I've seen it in a game I've always gone to it, not because I particularly wanted it, but because it almost always ensured the best outcome in an event. This is great and everything, but it's sooooo unbalanced that you might as well just have it be default. 

The best way to overcome this I guess though would not to mark it as "persuade", "intimidate", "diplomacy", etc. and simply to add the coversation options without an extra indication.

I don't mind non-combat skills, they're fun in games like D&D where almost every choice involved one of them, but what really makes them work is that win or fail I have to live with that decision, but I'm not necessarilly worse off for failing that conversation route. In video games they just almost always become I win buttons where I'm...I don't want to say forced because I'm not "forced" to do anything, but I'm kind of railroaded into making that choice.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Well, the DAO system kind of sucked, DA2 was much better in that regard. Having non-combat skills is nice, but if they do bring them back, they should fulfill a number of criteria:

1) Picking them should lead to drawbacks in other areas. It's fine to have additional lines of dialogue for high intelligence/wisdom/charisma (or something like that), but only if every point you spend on charisma is a point you can't spend on strength/constitution/agility.
2) These options shouldn't get special labels to tell you they're an "I win" button.
3) They should only help you persuade the other person, not make persuading the other person all but certain. Past actions and conversation choices as well as selecting sensible options during the conversation should also be a important factors.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 14 avril 2013 - 11:50 .

[Salaya]

I wrote this thread when I still had some faith in DA3. For what we know now, I don't. I'm pretty sure Bioware is not going to implement anything as skills or coercion; as of many other things that didn't work perfectly and seemed a bit too intimidating to "new" players, they'll just erase it. My bet is that they are going again with the poor tone-character forge system from DA2.

Many things have been said, and I would try to adress the most striking ones.

For the people who say that coercion skill was an auto-win button, I'll only say that achieving that point of auto-wining came with a price: by choosing coercion you renounce to be good at other things, most of them involving battle. I'm not going to defend that the system was perfect, because it wasn't, since that renounce was meaningless after some levels; but I certainly defend that the system would be much, much better, simply by making the renounce stricter. So, the problem was not the idea, but the execution. Also, the persuade options only could save you from some situations. If there was something breaking game difficulty in Origins, it was precisely the overpowered spells like Freeze Cone (not sure if thats its name in english) that made battles a walk in the park. An those were always present.

So, again, I think the important points here are that the player spents some effort in upgrading the skill, and not only because your character is comical, cynical or just very good natured. There was no effort at all in the persuasion system in DA2. It was meaningless. So, you end with a watered down system that makes you auto-win situations without any effort from your part?  And people consider this better than the coercion from Origins? I'm sorry, but I completely disagree.

That said, I'm afraid this discussion is futile. Persuasion has been spaced out from the Normandy.

[Urazz]

I say no to Coercion coming back but don't mind the other skills like trap making, potion making, etc coming back. Coercion was pretty much giving players an I-win conversation choice most of the time. I much rather have our persuade options be based on outside factors based on what you did like your reputation, what you did for that person, or how high a particular stat like charisma is, etc.

Modifié par Urazz, 14 avril 2013 - 12:31 .

[Salaya]

Urazz wrote...

I say no to Coercion coming back but don't mind the other skills like trap making, potion making, etc coming back. Coercion was pretty much giving players an I-win conversation choice most of the time. I much rather have our persuade options be based on outside factors based on what you did like your reputation, what you did for that person, or how high a particular stat like charisma is, etc.

I wouldn't mind a persuasion system based on stat points, but I do not see what difference is that from a skill you invest points on, renouncing to spend them in other areas. A high charisma is analogue to a high coercion skill. -the player invests in that particular stat renouncing others-. Some situatiosn would be auto-winnable with this; not that I have a problem with this, but it puzzles me how people who don't want one system preach for the other.

[SinerAthin]

Filament wrote...

That's because he's just crazy. (see the next two pages)

Are you sure it's not just you who are crazy? 

Filament wrote...

Eh, yeah, maybe.

I'm not really too invested in having it be one way or the other. I was OK with the way DAO and 2 did it and DEHR sounds like an interesting way of doing it too. They all seem to be flawed in different ways that don't sit totally well with me though.

What are the flaws with the DEHR way?

Modifié par SinerAthin, 14 avril 2013 - 02:02 .

[Squeeze the Fish]

I agree with those saying it felt like an, "I win" skill. I didn't necessarily mind what they did in DAII with personality having special dialog points or (especially) having one of your party members handle it. I would like a hybrid of the two maybe.

For instance, let's say you have a chance to use a persuasive skill, you click on the indicator and have three or so options to choose from to try to persuade the person you're dealing with and only one of them will actually work though maybe not exactly the way you're planning. Or you might completely offend/****** someone off because they figured out what you're trying to do.

Just a thought anyway. I know in these games you're basically the biggest Mary/Gary Sue/Stu ever, but I wouldn't mind toning it down just a bit or having a big more in-game disappointment.

Modifié par Squeeze the Fish, 14 avril 2013 - 02:24 .

[Felya87]

the lack of persuasion skill and all the Others RPG elements in DA2 still make my blood boil. I'm playng kotor2 after kotor1, and I find both are great in the skills aspect.

expecially in kotor2 (I know, is Obsidian) there are a lot of dialogue options that aren't persuasions ones, but are bound to Other skill. I'd like an implementation of those aspect. If I have a character who use venom, I'd like to give suggestion obout how to kill with poison somone, maybe without having to fight.