184 réponses à ce sujet

[LilyasAvalon]

Compromise, guys? How about coercion requiring a much higher cunning stat? Or some coercion being related to certain speaking techniques like it was in DA2.

[BlueMagitek]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Compromise, guys? How about coercion requiring a much higher cunning stat? Or some coercion being related to certain speaking techniques like it was in DA2.

I would be okay with this.

If top tier magic requires anywhere from 30-34 magic and armors/weapons require 30/40 + strength, shouldn't top tier coercion require a similar investment?  16 is very low, considering you start ~10 and the Fade gives you free 5 cunning if you search around for it.

Edit:

Thought Master Coercion was 18 cunning, fixed.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 14 avril 2013 - 04:09 .

[Plaintiff]

Why does everything have to be based on some sort of "skill" that we need to put "points" in?

Why can't Persuasion be linked to tone choices? Why can't crafting be based purely on resources and money? Why must every single gameplay element be tied back to the tired, played out concepts of "Experience Points" and "Levelling Up"?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 avril 2013 - 04:46 .

[Dabrikishaw]

I'd like to bring back non-combat skill tress in general.

[Salaya]

Plaintiff wrote...

Why does everything have to be based on some sort of "skill" that we need to put "points" in?

Why can't Persuasion be linked to tone choices? Why can't crafting be based purely on resources and money? Why must every single gameplay element be tied back to the tired, played out concepts of "Experience Points" and "Levelling Up"?

Because some of us still like these "tired" concepts. Innovation does not mean "erase". Bioware has just erased many "tired" elements and sold the thing as innovation -and many of you share this vision.

I doubt that's the case, though -but that's just my opinion-. Innovation, in this case, is just another step to homogeneization.

[Plaintiff]

Salaya wrote...
Because some of us still like these "tired" concepts.

Some people still like black and white movies. Why would you make them in colour? YOU'RE WRECKING EVERYTHING.

Innovation does not mean "erase". Bioware has just erased many "tired" elements and sold the thing as innovation -and many of you share this vision.

They didn't "erase" dick. You can still coerce. You can still craft. In fact, Coercion works the same way it always did, the only difference is that instead of putting points in one stat, you now have three to choose from.

I doubt that's the case, though -but that's just my opinion-. Innovation, in this case, is just another step to homogeneization.

'Homogenization'? You made this thread to complain about an aspect of a Bioware game that is actually different from other RPGs, and now you say that their changes are leading to homogenization? Make up your damn mind.

"Stop trying to be different, Bioware! Go back to doing things the way they've been done since Dungeons & Dragons was first published in 1974! That's the way to really stand out!"

[Karlone123]

It was fun to end a few conflicts without the need to kill everyone in sight.

[Salaya]

Plaintiff wrote...

...

If you want to discuss something with me, go ahead. But I won't go for it unless you try to be a bit more polite or respectful.

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

Why does everything have to be based on some sort of "skill" that we need to put "points" in?

Why can't Persuasion be linked to tone choices? Why can't crafting be based purely on resources and money? Why must every single gameplay element be tied back to the tired, played out concepts of "Experience Points" and "Levelling Up"?

It is one way of presenting our character.  Why must every character have the potential to be the best Mage/Warrior/Rogue/Cleric/Bard at the same time as long as they have the money?

Characters tend to be specialized; if you want your character to become a master archer, when does the character have time to study up on herbology (if they are instead focusing on tactics or combat training)?  Why should someone who is very combat oriented be able to craft masterful potions or poisons just because they have the money?

[Plaintiff]

BlueMagitek wrote...
It is one way of presenting our character.  Why must every character have the potential to be the best Mage/Warrior/Rogue/Cleric/Bard at the same time as long as they have the money?

One way? So you admit that there are other ways?

Characters tend to be specialized; if you want your character to become a master archer, when does the character have time to study up on herbology (if they are instead focusing on tactics or combat training)?  Why should someone who is very combat oriented be able to craft masterful potions or poisons just because they have the money?

"Skill Points" are an abstract representation of "Learning". Your argument hinges on the extremely flawed assumption that "learning" is the only way a character in an RPG can do anything. But DA2's crafting system is not an abstraction of learning, it is an abstraction of shopping. Hawke finds resources for Tomwise, Lady Elegant and Worthy, allowing them to increase their stock. Hawke then buys their wares, either directly from their stores or by sending out an order from his. It's a perfectly valid way to do it, as long as the player can learn to accept that DnD is not the only way to roleplay.

Similarly, Hawke does not "learn" to Coerce. His ability to Persuade/Lie/Intimidate arises naturally from his personality, which you decide for him through dialogue choices. Again, perfectly valid way to do it. When you think about it, when you pick any given dialogue choice in DA2, what you're really doing is putting a point in that dialogue's correspondeing personality "stat". You just can't see the numbers.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 avril 2013 - 05:58 .

[BlueMagitek]

Plaintiff wrote...

One way? So you admit that there are other ways?

"Skill Points" are an abstract representation of "Learning". Your argument hinges on the extremely flawed assumption that "learning" is the only way a character in an RPG can do anything. But DA2's crafting system is not an abstraction of learning, it is an abstraction of shopping. Hawke finds resources for Tomwise, Lady Elegant and Worthy, allowing them to increase their stock. Hawke then buys their wares, either directly from their stores or by sending out an order from his. It's a perfectly valid way to do it, as long as the player can learn to accept that DnD is not the only way to roleplay.

Similarly, Hawke does not "learn" to Coerce. His ability to Persuade/Lie/Intimidate arises naturally from his personality, which you decide for him through dialogue choices. Again, perfectly valid way to do it. When you think about it, when you pick any given dialogue choice in DA2, what you're really doing is putting a point in that dialogue's correspondeing personality "stat". You just can't see the numbers.

I never said that there was only one way.  However if you would like to continue to delude yourself, be my guest.

Of course not, there is also Shadowrun, all of White Wolf's stuff, Call of Cthulhu, etc.  Plenty of ways to go about roleplaying.  But the point is, some people want their character to be able to do those things themselves.  There is more to a role playing game than combat and choices. 

It isn't just picking a point and boom, you know how to do something.  That's why there are prerequisites.  Silly.

[Iosev]

I personally would prefer not to see the coercion skill return, and would rather see persuasive ability tied to actions or past dialogue choices. For example, let's say that you protected some city elves from some chevaliers. Later, you encounter some elves who are friends to the ones you protected, and during a conversation, you will have the option to persuade them about something. Since you chose to help their friends earlier, your persuasion attempt would be successful. In contrast, if you chose to assist the chevaliers, your persuasion attempt would fail.

Another example could simply be affected by your general tone during the beginning of a conversation. For instance, in the beginning of a conversation, you have a chance to respond either diplomatically, sardonically, or aggressively. Later in the conversation, there may be an option to intimidate the NPC, and success may depend on how you started the conversation (i.e., the attempt would fail, unless you started the conversation aggressively).

These are just a couple of examples, but in general, I would prefer coercive ability to be determined by actions and actual dialogue choices, rather than spending points in a particular skill.

[AldenKrimhild]

I used coercion a lot even if i didnt always invest skillpoints in it, and that on purpose. Imo thats just something for roleplaying, you have to have the option to try and talk things out, even if it doesent work. You just use the option, still get to fight, get the ep and loot, and your cp has a clear conscience XP I dont want a success guarantee, just to be able to try. Not all of my characters are reckless murderers.

[Uccio]

Maclimes wrote...

Yes, bring them back, but do NOT interfere with combat skills for them.

I think there should be seperate pools of points for this. It would drive me crazy to say, "Well, I'd like to get the next level of combat talents, but I can't, because I need to dump a point into Coercion. Maybe next level."

It was frustrating, especially considering the combat-heavy nature of the DA series. I am all about, however, having a seperate set of skills that pull from a seperate pool of points. Allow us to invest in Persuade, Intimidate, or Seduce, or use those points for other, weird, non-combat stuff, like Crafting or Bargaining (get better deals at merchants).

This.

[DragonMage95]

Yes please!

[Boycott Bioware]

I still say KotOR system is better, there are 3 separate section, that are Combat, Skill and Power

Attributes and class effects the skill points we can invest. Soldier have the lowest skill points but still we can customize Soldier class at least skillful in one area by altering Intelligent and Charisma attribute, meaning Soldier can be as persuasive as Scoundrel if we can manage it, maybe we have to gimp it's combat prowess a little bit but it is custom character, there are other ways to increase combat prowess such as using implants and certain items and power. Strong or weak in combat is determined by attribute , so similar way Scoundrel can be as strong as Soldier if invest in Strength and sacrifice Intelligent or Charisma attribute

Skill section in KotOR didn't interfere combat feats, i mean not like in DA:O where Coercion and Combat Skill being put into one section, so we have to choose between Coercion and Combat Skill, if choosing Coercion then we don't unlock combat feats, that is bad about DA:O.

DA:2 completely throwing it all away, makes DA2 feel lame...Hawke is naturally Diplomatic, Funny, Grumpy or a bipolar....

So i say bring back the KotOR style, it solve the problem.

Modifié par Qistina, 16 avril 2013 - 03:40 .

[Zeldrik1389]

Qistina wrote...

I still say KotOR system is better, there are 3 separate section, that are Combat, Skill and Power

Attributes and class effects the skill points we can invest. Soldier have the lowest skill points but still we can customize Soldier class at least skillful in one area by altering Intelligent and Charisma attribute, meaning Soldier can be as persuasive as Scoundrel if we can manage it, maybe we have to gimp it's combat prowess a little bit but it is custom character, there are other ways to increase combat prowess such as using implants and certain items and power. Strong or weak in combat is determined by attribute , so similar way Scoundrel can be as strong as Soldier if invest in Strength and sacrifice Intelligent or Charisma attribute

Skill section in KotOR didn't interfere combat feats, i mean not like in DA:O where Coercion and Combat Skill being put into one section, so we have to choose between Coercion and Combat Skill, if choosing Coercion then we don't unlock combat feats, that is bad about DA:O.

DA:2 completely throwing it all away, makes DA2 feel lame...Hawke is naturally Diplomatic, Funny, Grumpy or a bipolar....

So i say bring back the KotOR style, it solve the problem.

+1
I second that. Though I notice a lot of rpg today are much more simplier than the old ones, skill points management wise. I missed the time of D2, BG, or NWN where every skill points was so precious, you had to know what you want to do with your char, or you will end up with a broken mess.

[Zelto]

I think the coercion skill should return in some form, it made the game feel more interesting, in DA:2 you can unlock the coercion ability without and sort of opportunity cost, just keep choosing the same type of response, (which I think most people would do anyway even without the coercion being tied to it) and you can use it in the right circumstances.

DA:O you had to choose, yes it was annoying that the combat skill used the same skill point and that should be removed, but having to choose between coercion and herbalist, or rune crafting or some other secondary non-combat skill would be good.

Perhaps even have the choice like specialisations where the other secondary skills are locked out once you choose one, or a second is only available once you reach a certain level. That way there is a genuine opportunity cost to learning coercion.

[abnocte]

I sure missed coercion! well, what I really missed was the uncertainity of whether my Persuasion/Intimidate attemp would be successful!

Now with the wheel everything is an auto-win button, in ME was specially boring since it forbade you from using the dialogue option to begin with...
DA2 was no better with the "personality" traking. I still don't understand why only a "Sarcastic/Charming" Hawke could lie to those wards in the basement... ( Goddammint Merril )

[legbamel]

I hate the idea of your persuade ability being tied to overall tone. Why can't a smartass be persuasive when he or she wants to, be charming when the moment calls for it? It was a fitting skill for a rogue to develop.

I'd certainly support the cunning requirement to max it out being raised quite a bit, however. For me, the whole point of investing in skills as the game develops should be analogous to progressing my character via experience.

[Boycott Bioware]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...
+1
I second that. Though I notice a lot of rpg today are much more simplier than the old ones, skill points management wise. I missed the time of D2, BG, or NWN where every skill points was so precious, you had to know what you want to do with your char, or you will end up with a broken mess.

it is because they are carefully planned by developer, if you re-play KotOR now you will realized that everything in character creation is perfectly designed. the template, the character progression, the mechanic.

Let see, the PC will always have enough feats, there are no excessive feats or lack of feats, i mean the player must carefully planned what to invest in. For example, Scoundrel-Consular (in normal level 8/12 build) will have 9 combat feats, if you look carefully the 8 feats are enough for Consular, 3 fighting style, 2 combat style, 1 lightsaber mastery and 2 Jedi Defense, the extra 1 is from Scoundrel at level 2. If the player want to invest in other than these feats, then the player must sacrifice these feats....

And we can miiss-match classes, Soldier-Consular/Sentinel, Scout-Guardian/Consular, Scoundrel-Guardian/Sentinel and have different results for each, even so you will realize even these miss-match classes are perfect in it's "default" build...

it is only up to the player to make the character very persuasive, persuasive, bad in persuasion and so any other skills...excellent, good, and bad in skills

Modifié par Qistina, 16 avril 2013 - 06:51 .

[Deebo305]

This thread make remember the one thing I hate about Origin, the non-combat skill tree. I glad it got fixed and streamline in DA2 because so much of it was pointless. If I'm a Rouge I intend to steal everything in sight not be shoehorned into constantly having Leiliana there to open locked chest for me. Hell almost all my point usually went into Tactics and Combat so I'd have higher teir attack powers and more tactical slot to AVOID all the micromanagement in combat even though it was still impossible to avoid If I want poisons and have the resources along with the formulas then I want them made and not be forced to wait until Zevran is at the right level. Hell I still haven't been able to explore trap making to this day.

I'm glad they did away with this skill tree and hope it never returns

[Alex109222]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Yeah bring back the RPG elments plz

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes i love when our character can use violence or use intelligence , charm or bluff i love that especially in Neverwinter Nights 2 when more dialogues shown when your wisdom , intelligence , diplomacy , bluff , perform ,charisma or intimidate is high it's nice when our skills affect in our dialogues.In orgins if you have 30 or more cunning some dialouges are shown like when we talk with flemeth i could be nice if they give more such events. It would be nice when we could learn tactics and use that skill for better result not only in gameplay.

[Nole]

I would like to have back the intimidation through the strength points and that kind of stuff.

Modifié par WittingEight65, 27 juin 2013 - 05:10 .