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Tone down the romances!


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#376
nightscrawl

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David Gaider wrote...

This is incredibly funny to me, just because on the spectrum of "happy romance ending" to "OHGODOHGODWHY ending" I tend to fall more towards the former than most of the other writers. Which means I tend to end up taking that side of the argument whenever the other writers are involved.

I mean, Luke? Luke will cut you ****es. And he'll like it a lot. Mary will gleefully rain hellfire down on the fans in general, and they will love her and despair. Jennifer pursues grim finality with sheer determination, and Sheryl just sort of swings around her plot hammer like some writer version of Harley Quinn. It's frightening, most days, to think that I OF ALL PEOPLE end up taking the "gee, guys, let's not cut off both their legs, gosh" end of the discussion. It's a bizarre place for me to be.

Thankfully, Sylvia is now here to push things towards the Light Side. She likes puppies and wildflowers and sunshine. With Luke whispering in her ear, of course, it's only a matter of time...

._.

Man, you guys are kinda scary. No wonder Hawke's entire family (possibly with the Deep Roads) gets killed off.

#377
Mary Kirby

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argan1985 wrote...

So I'm a "whiny fan" because I express my opinion on what appears to be a bad trend? I am sure they will take the majority of the opinion of the fans here into consideration.


We understand that not all our fans want romance in their story, which is why they have always been optional. I would really not worry that romances will impact the core gameplay experience. I know this is not evident to those looking on from outside, but from a development standpoint, not all zots are created equal. Romance content is created exclusively by writing and cinematic design. None of those people work on the combat rules or encounter designs or level design. A writing zot is not equivalent to a level art zot or a system design zot.  There are trades we can make to lighten the load on another department, but this is not actually one of them.

#378
Sylvanpyxie

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I guess some people prefer tragic but I find it bordering on sadism.

You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make anybody else's wrong.

Chris Avellone prefers an edge of tragedy to romances, I do as well. That doesn't mean I hate romances, I still enjoy them as a sub-plot of a great game, but if they end in a manner that is horrific or upsetting I personally find them to have a great deal more impact.

I love the ending to Dragon Age Origins in which a Romanced Alistair sacrifices himself to save the woman he loves. It's both utterly depressing and completely fulfilling. He died saving the woman he loved, entirely of his own accord. It's horrible, but it appeals to me more than King/Queen happy ever after.

That's entirely *my* opinion. That doesn't make me wrong, it doesn't mean I hate romances, it just means we have different tastes.

As for "being rejected"? I'd love it if a Love Interest rejected me, especially if it's because I'm opposed to their beliefs or we're just incompatible in terms of personality. Rejection needs to happen a heck of a lot more - It adds an element of consequence and I also think it has more impact than the death of a Love Interest.

Of course, as I said at the start - Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. A lot of BSN Forumites prefer Happy Endings, that's fine, more power to you. I personally prefer tragedy or unrequited love, that doesn't make me wrong, it just means our opinions are different.

Differing personal preferences are what make Romances so varied. Nothing wrong with it, implying that someone is "wrong" simply because they stated their opinion is a tad unnecessary.

(Late to the party, but that's what happens when you get distracted by 5 stacks of Supernatural.)

#379
marshalleck

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Mary Kirby wrote...

argan1985 wrote...

So I'm a "whiny fan" because I express my opinion on what appears to be a bad trend? I am sure they will take the majority of the opinion of the fans here into consideration.


We understand that not all our fans want romance in their story, which is why they have always been optional. I would really not worry that romances will impact the core gameplay experience. I know this is not evident to those looking on from outside, but from a development standpoint, not all zots are created equal. Romance content is created exclusively by writing and cinematic design. None of those people work on the combat rules or encounter designs or level design. A writing zot is not equivalent to a level art zot or a system design zot.  There are trades we can make to lighten the load on another department, but this is not actually one of them.


You can dump the romance and expand the other parts of the narrative that matter. You know, like eliminating auto-dialogue and bringing us back to at least three dialogue choices instead of two. 

#380
Mr Fixit

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

It's who we are, dark-haired and fiery-eyed BSN forumites. Unbridled passions and lustful desires pretty much define us.

I actually have a mass of long, golden tresses that cascade down my back in a waterfall of curls and sparkle in the sunlight. Thank you very much.


Eh. I always pictured you as a raven-haired southern temptress, quick of wit and sharp of tongue, forever exacting vengeance on men for transgressions both real and imagined. Harsh mistress you are, disdainful yet haunting, in my mind's eye.

So... you telling me I dreamt all that?

#381
David Gaider

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marshalleck wrote...
Welcome to the internet, grow a thicker skin.


No, sorry. "That's just the Internet" is not an excuse to be an ass, and it's only the default if everyone permits it to be.

You and everyone will watch your tone when addressing anyone on these forums, and attempts to sweep into a thread you don't like and get it locked by being aggressively rude will earn you a ban-- and eventually a permanent denial of the right to post here.

This is just a warning. Keep it respectful, folks.

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:20 .


#382
Sylvius the Mad

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Mary Kirby wrote...

We understand that not all our fans want romance in their story, which is why they have always been optional. I would really not worry that romances will impact the core gameplay experience. I know this is not evident to those looking on from outside, but from a development standpoint, not all zots are created equal. Romance content is created exclusively by writing and cinematic design. None of those people work on the combat rules or encounter designs or level design. A writing zot is not equivalent to a level art zot or a system design zot.  There are trades we can make to lighten the load on another department, but this is not actually one of them.

When you frame it like that, I'm suddenly a really big fan of romance content.

Because it keeps the cinematic guys occupied and out of the rest of the game.

#383
Yrkoon

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^unless the zots we're talking about are massive enough to tie the romances themselves to the entire rest of the game  (they can easily  manifest themselves in long-winded cutscenes triggering  in  dungeons, or when you're walking down the street, or when you're busy talking to some other NPC)

Some other ways Romances can effect the  rest of the game:

   LI  X suddenly grows muscles and changes from a mage to a warrior-mage once the Protagonist says:  "I love you, come to my tent"

Or:

If you reach phase 2 of Romance, you may unlock  a new Dual-wielding tree.

Or:

Cross class combos with your love interest do  20% more damage.

etc.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:54 .


#384
Fallstar

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I think the romances were fine in terms of content volume in both games. I didn't romance anyone on my first DA2 playthrough and didn't feel like I was missing out.

#385
DarthLaxian

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the thread title inspires me to say:

no way mate (imagine an australian accent - also i am german)

the romances are part of what makes bioware games great (well maybe not Dragon Age 2 and ME3 but the rest) so no deal!

that said, please make the romances a more integral (but still voluntary) part or the main quest (like it changing the main quest by - say - having your LI telling you things you might otherwise not know or helping you in ways he/she would normaly not) :)

greetings LAX

#386
AnniLau

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I could have used more romance in DA2, or at least different pacing. It seemed to be mostly concentrated in Act II and, even then, it was sort of feast or famine depending where you were in the story.

#387
Iconic_N7

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Romance is totally optional in both previous games. If one doesnt like it, then to pursue it. Its that easy.

#388
Shanook

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Why is it that whenever anyone says "romance," they usually just mean screwing?


This. Sex =/= romance, nor vice-versa. True, there are some people that, for whatever reason, do the romances for the uncanny valley-ridden sex scenes, but I think the vast majority of us do it for the character interaction and development. It adds depth to the story.

Personally I don't want more romance content so much as better-integrated romance content. I want to know that my romance has effects on the story outside of the few dialogues we get with our LI, in a way that wouldn't negatively affect the story should the player not have a romance. The nod about Hawke not having any problems following the advice of taint-addled crazy people in Legacy if he/she was romancing Anders is a good example. Players who either don't have a romance or are romancing someone other than Anders don't lose out on a major story point or anything, but people who are are able to see their choices affecting the world and characters around them. It's simple things like that that really make a game immersive.

#389
Iconic_N7

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oops... i meant then dont pursue it.

#390
SeismicGravy

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Mr Fixit wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

It's who we are, dark-haired and fiery-eyed BSN forumites. Unbridled passions and lustful desires pretty much define us.

I actually have a mass of long, golden tresses that cascade down my back in a waterfall of curls and sparkle in the sunlight. Thank you very much.


Eh. I always pictured you as a raven-haired southern temptress, quick of wit and sharp of tongue, forever exacting vengeance on men for transgressions both real and imagined. Harsh mistress you are, disdainful yet haunting, in my mind's eye.

So... you telling me I dreamt all that?


IT (Infatuation Theory)?

Modifié par SeismicGravy, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:36 .


#391
marshalleck

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David Gaider wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Welcome to the internet, grow a thicker skin.


No, sorry. "That's just the Internet" is not an excuse to be an ass, and it's only the default if everyone permits it to be.

You and everyone will watch your tone when addressing anyone on these forums, and attempts to sweep into a thread you don't like and get it locked by being aggressively rude will earn you a ban-- and eventually a permanent denial of the right to post here.

This is just a warning. Keep it respectful, folks.

I wasn't making excuses, it was an explanation and a suggestion. There are no excuses for relatively anonymous interaction with other humans; it is what it is. Overactive primal lizard brains and all. 

#392
EricHVela

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I get that romances are optional, but avoiding a romance and still being nice to the character are also not mutually exclusive. Yet, that has been the case more than once.

If it was a matter of the character hitting on the protagonist and having to make your protagonist get a little terse to put a stop to it, that would be one thing. Making your protagonist preemptively be out-right mean to the character to avoid a romance track is ... well... just mean (and logically out-of-character for those just wanting a nice protagonist).

#393
Josielyn

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I think Bioware has done a fantastic job on the romances in the past 2 DA games, and there is no need to tone it down. In fact, the romance is key to what attracts 30-something-working-moms to RPG games: way better than the paperback novel that you trade with your sisters! Otherwise, why would we bother with the time taken on RPGs, when we already spend 8+ hours a day in front of a computer? As far as electing not to participate, simply rejecting an advance does not make your character mean, it just loses approval points. However it is worded, rejection is still rejection. I think that is somewhat similar to what happens in real life, ?no? At least you can still be "friends" with your companions whose romantic dreams you have just crushed! What if Bioware decided to be mean and force you to either romance a party member, or you lose them permanently? What would you choose, and would the NPC be happy with you stringing them along just to benefit from their sword? (I mean the metal kind).

#394
RogueWriter3201

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David Gaider wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Welcome to the internet, grow a thicker skin.


No, sorry. "That's just the Internet" is not an excuse to be an ass, and it's only the default if everyone permits it to be.

You and everyone will watch your tone when addressing anyone on these forums, and attempts to sweep into a thread you don't like and get it locked by being aggressively rude will earn you a ban-- and eventually a permanent denial of the right to post here.

This is just a warning. Keep it respectful, folks.


Gaider: "Like a Baws B)"

#395
SamaraDraven

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ReggarBlane wrote...

I get that romances are optional, but avoiding a romance and still being nice to the character are also not mutually exclusive. Yet, that has been the case more than once.

If it was a matter of the character hitting on the protagonist and having to make your protagonist get a little terse to put a stop to it, that would be one thing. Making your protagonist preemptively be out-right mean to the character to avoid a romance track is ... well... just mean (and logically out-of-character for those just wanting a nice protagonist).


Yes, it would be nice if the romance rejections were kinder. I'd expect to get a lot of disapproval if you're cruel about turning down a companion's attentions but doing it gently should have much lesser effect, in my opinion. It goes against my PC's character to be cruel or disrespectful about such a thing. The companion is going to feel hurt regardless so negative points are unavoidable but being cruel about it should have more. What sucks is that's all they give you. I think just making the romance rejection clearer without being mean would be welcome.

Modifié par SamaraDraven, 25 septembre 2012 - 11:02 .


#396
MrCrabby

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David Gaider wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Welcome to the internet, grow a thicker skin.


No, sorry. "That's just the Internet" is not an excuse to be an ass, and it's only the default if everyone permits it to be.

You and everyone will watch your tone when addressing anyone on these forums, and attempts to sweep into a thread you don't like and get it locked by being aggressively rude will earn you a ban-- and eventually a permanent denial of the right to post here.

This is just a warning. Keep it respectful, folks.


The "anonymity" of the internet allows the closet asses to show their true personalities, it doesn't make a non-ass into one. I agree that too many people use "it's just the internet" to be extremely nasty.

I should apply for a job here, because I am a masochist and love being verbally abused. Bioware could just blame every unpopular game/decision on me and let it all rip. That could be my entire function at the company.

#397
unbentbuzzkill

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i think the romances were fine in DA2

#398
SamaraDraven

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MrCrabby wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Welcome to the internet, grow a thicker skin.


No, sorry. "That's just the Internet" is not an excuse to be an ass, and it's only the default if everyone permits it to be.

You and everyone will watch your tone when addressing anyone on these forums, and attempts to sweep into a thread you don't like and get it locked by being aggressively rude will earn you a ban-- and eventually a permanent denial of the right to post here.

This is just a warning. Keep it respectful, folks.


The "anonymity" of the internet allows the closet asses to show their true personalities, it doesn't make a non-ass into one. I agree that too many people use "it's just the internet" to be extremely nasty.

I should apply for a job here, because I am a masochist and love being verbally abused. Bioware could just blame every unpopular game/decision on me and let it all rip. That could be my entire function at the company.


The Professional Scapegoat? :blink: I bet people would like you anyway. You'd be like the "Gate Guy" Walter from Stargate. Everyone looks at him first when stuff's going wrong (until he shrugs and they all look somewhere else) but he still had a pretty good size fanbase while the show was running. :D

#399
RogueWriter3201

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Josielyn wrote...

I think Bioware has done a fantastic job on the romances in the past 2 DA games, and there is no need to tone it down. In fact, the romance is key to what attracts 30-something-working-moms to RPG games: way better than the paperback novel that you trade with your sisters! Otherwise, why would we bother with the time taken on RPGs, when we already spend 8+ hours a day in front of a computer? As far as electing not to participate, simply rejecting an advance does not make your character mean, it just loses approval points. However it is worded, rejection is still rejection. I think that is somewhat similar to what happens in real life, ?no? At least you can still be "friends" with your companions whose romantic dreams you have just crushed! What if Bioware decided to be mean and force you to either romance a party member, or you lose them permanently? What would you choose, and would the NPC be happy with you stringing them along just to benefit from their sword? (I mean the metal kind).


I do feel there's one exception here in regards to how "rejection" should work in the context of a story between a PC and Companion. Take, for instance, Aveline. In DA2 the option is given to make your attraction/affection for her known, yet she is completely oblivious to it in a way that doesn't match the character's intellect. While she might be clueless on how proper courtship works she wouldn't be as effective a cop as she is if she wasn't observant, and Hawke, via dialogue choices, practically waves a neon sign in front of her saying, "I'm into you."

Then, instead of rejecting you outright the romantic side story drops a walking wall in front of your romantic interest in the form of Donnic *right* when Aveline is about to realize that, this whole time, you've been telling her, "Hey, I kinda love you." Then it's essentially dropped. There's no real recognition of the possibly mutual interest, you get an awkward "friend" kiss and that's that. I can't tell whether Luke was trying to "teach a lesson" or he was just, as Gaider put it, intentionally going for the knife cut.

Now what does this have to do with what you stated above? I have no problem with rejection in either direction. Anders came on to me and I told him, "You're a good friend man, but I don't swing that way." He was hurt but I didn't feel bad because I was honest. Same with Morrigan in DAO. Now, when it's a companion that rejects you I would rather have it be an instance where you openly explain your feelings and, for whatever justification in the companion's character, he/she tells you, the PC, that they don't think of you that way.

However giving the player the option to engage in romantic dialogue, yet not affording any resolution or instead introducing another non-party character for the simple sake of being a "**** block" scapegoat is, in my opinion, not the best way to go about it, especially if the focus of your affection appears to suffer from brain damage by being incapable of understand obvious dialogue. But, no, I would rather have honesty go both ways then lie for the sake of either not upsetting the player by not giving them what they want or string the companion along in a romance you, as the player, aren't really into.

Thankfully I've never had that in any Dragon Age game. Closet thing to "pretending" to be on good terms with someone was Carver. I hated that character with a passion (the only, to me, poorly written/performed character in the game. Bethany was just better all around yet locked off to Mages) yet, from an RP perspective, I felt Hawke would try damn hard to get along with Carver for the sake of Bethany's memory and for their mother.   

#400
Xilizhra

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marshalleck wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Welcome to the internet, grow a thicker skin.


No, sorry. "That's just the Internet" is not an excuse to be an ass, and it's only the default if everyone permits it to be.

You and everyone will watch your tone when addressing anyone on these forums, and attempts to sweep into a thread you don't like and get it locked by being aggressively rude will earn you a ban-- and eventually a permanent denial of the right to post here.

This is just a warning. Keep it respectful, folks.

I wasn't making excuses, it was an explanation and a suggestion. There are no excuses for relatively anonymous interaction with other humans; it is what it is. Overactive primal lizard brains and all. 

And those who can't act in a civilized manner perhaps should not be allowed to post at all, no?