274 réponses à ce sujet

[labargegrrrl]

leandra's backstory indicated a woman that could have been much stronger than she came off. interacting with her made me feel like she just hid behind other people for protection her whole life...her family, then her husband, then her adult children and her brother...which was sad, because given that she had enough of a spine to live the life she did, the fact that leandra seemed so fragile and even wimpy after all that made it hard for me to empathize with her as a character. i could totally go without my pc having a parent like that again.

[Melca36]

labargegrrrl wrote...

leandra's backstory indicated a woman that could have been much stronger than she came off. interacting with her made me feel like she just hid behind other people for protection her whole life...her family, then her husband, then her adult children and her brother...which was sad, because given that she had enough of a spine to live the life she did, the fact that leandra seemed so fragile and even wimpy after all that made it hard for me to empathize with her as a character. i could totally go without my pc having a parent like that again.

I agree.

I remember a line Bethany said about Leandra always being worried and never being happy.  It made me think she caused so much stress for Malcolm that it killed him.

[Palipride47]

Melca36 wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

leandra's backstory indicated a woman that could have been much stronger than she came off. interacting with her made me feel like she just hid behind other people for protection her whole life...her family, then her husband, then her adult children and her brother...which was sad, because given that she had enough of a spine to live the life she did, the fact that leandra seemed so fragile and even wimpy after all that made it hard for me to empathize with her as a character. i could totally go without my pc having a parent like that again.

I agree.

I remember a line Bethany said about Leandra always being worried and never being happy.  It made me think she caused so much stress for Malcolm that it killed him.

And Bethany too.

Think about how psychologically awful you'd feel that your entire family is on the run and your mother "never knew how to smile" because of YOU (or you and your sister, but your codex says you embraced magic more than she did). Carver isn't exactly subtle about  his feelings about your magic messes up his life, does Bethany get that same crappy treatment?

But yeah, she could've been so much more awesome, like Lady Cousland 2 (since she was voiced by her as well) and Teryna Cousland still pulled that "be a lady to be a wife" crap, before I went to my bedroom to sleep with that pretty blond elf girl. 

That "I think I should remarry, and you should marry someone except that person you're seeing" bit didn't help if she already seemed spineless, snobby and ignorant. 

[Palipride47]

Avejajed wrote...

The amount of people being absolutely -horridly- rude to a writer of a game you're all "fans" of is mind boggling to me.

Not intended to be sarcastic, but could you please define "rude"?

Trading ideas, thoughts, and offering praises for stuff we liked and *constructive" criticism and ideas on what we believed could have been improved on does not strike me as rude. I think most of us are debating missed opportunites and new ideas (with some jest) as opposed to outright scorn and vitriol. 

[Lithuasil]

Palipride47 wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

The amount of people being absolutely -horridly- rude to a writer of a game you're all "fans" of is mind boggling to me.

Not intended to be sarcastic, but could you please define "rude"?

Trading ideas, thoughts, and offering praises for stuff we liked and *constructive" criticism and ideas on what we believed could have been improved on does not strike me as rude. I think most of us are debating missed opportunites and new ideas (with some jest) as opposed to outright scorn and vitriol. 

Constructive criticism is all fine and dandy - but what's happening in some other threads here, especially towards DA2... I believe the appropriate term would be "religious hate speech".

[snackrat]

I love the fact that this request is supposed to be srsbsns - I don't like the Dead Mum Syndrome either, but understand why it is used. Ever played a dark Cousland? - but David is just coming along and trolling us all.

[rpgfan321]

Faerunner wrote...
 *snip*

So, yeah. BioWare, please keep our parents not only alive, but  people we can actually respect. I would personally love it if we had a protagonist who still had parents who were fun, bold, awesome people. Probably still living in a farm somewhere proud of what their kid's accomplishing, and said kid living a go-getter lifestyle not because of trauma, but because it's how their parents raised them. Someone who'd be proud to come home and say "Yep, this is what I'm doing out there" and parents saying "That's my boy/girl." (Or said parents being obstructionists who disapprove of what the kid is doing, but either way, still being freaking alive and not overgrown children that need to be looked after.)

I agree to your points. It would have been great if we could have talked to Leandra and perhaps Gamlen a lot more in each acts. After few hours into the game, given the context and background for the Hawke family, I gave them props. Just imagine a similar situation IRL; it would be very difficult. Coming to understand that, I gave Leandra props for continuing to be the mother. It's probably because of development time and technical aspects that limited her to become fully realized, however, I recognize the potential. Leandra, in the game, may not be the super mom some people want, but it has to be taken into account, she was born into a different culture and time period, even though it is not that far back. 

Having an actual visible role of a mother in a BW game was great, in my opinion, and it was relatively new, opposed to the surrogate/mentor roles. If Leandra was  like a semi-companion in DA2 (had more conversations and cinematic interactions other than her death), perhaps maybe her death to the majority seemed justified. Just a thought. It was disappoint to not have her a more prominent role since she was the mom. To get back onto topic, I do think the dead mother trope is being overused since most mothers protrayed, or lack of portrayal, in BW game so far does nothing to set an emotional foundation such as respect. 

[Yevetha]

Dear DA writers:

Take your time. I believe you can write an awesome story that will make me want to replay the game for several years to come.

Sincerly,
This Guy *points thumbs at self*

[ZtalkerRM]

Oh man, just read this thread after clicking the Bioware logo in the index. Mr. Gaider is one of the best fishermen around...everyone bites the lure he throws in, even the obvious ones

Has it ever occured to you guys that Mr. Gaider, with his writing, has done exactly what we asked for in the first place? We wanted a dark medieval BG-ish story...and we get a story where death is behind every corner...I mean..even the Warden himself can die. Almost every single party member can die in DA2.

I think it's one of the stronger points of the series. You, the hero, as sole survivor trying to protect others.

[labargegrrrl]

Faerunner wrote...

So, yeah. BioWare, please keep our parents not only alive, but  people we can actually respect. I would personally love it if we had a protagonist who still had parents who were fun, bold, awesome people. Probably still living in a farm somewhere proud of what their kid's accomplishing, and said kid living a go-getter lifestyle not because of trauma, but because it's how their parents raised them. Someone who'd be proud to come home and say "Yep, this is what I'm doing out there" and parents saying "That's my boy/girl." (Or said parents being obstructionists who disapprove of what the kid is doing, but either way, still being freaking alive and not overgrown children that need to be looked after.)

that part, i don't quite agree with.  i'd rather have my parents exit the scene early on like some of the Warden parents did.  (and i do say SOME because i think adoptive parents and parent figures are more legit than biological ones).  the couslands were particularly well done.  i also liked mahariel's mothers, who you don't ever run into durring the course of origins until the archdeamon is dead, and really don't hold out much hope durring a first playthrough of ever seeing again.  (which also seems even more poigniant after DA2, of course!)  

i'm all about the parents dying, disappering, or disowning.  i'd like to see a hardcore case of the last one, and i think the writing staff could probably do an epic job of pulling that off.

[Palipride47]

I am just happy that a video game still has writers. (gasp)

They've done it very well, and had some major flops. Probably (hopefully) due to time.

Tropes aren't a bad thing. Shallow, poorly executed tropes are a bad thing.

[Catia]

Karsciyin wrote...

I love the fact that this request is supposed to be srsbsns - I don't like the Dead Mum Syndrome either, but understand why it is used. Ever played a dark Cousland? - but David is just coming along and trolling us all.

I agree with the srsbsns sentiment, but for different reasons. I'm of the mindset that the story for DA3 is written and, for the most part, locked-in. Thus, debates like this are rather pointless. Interesting, but pointless just the same.

Here's my rationale: if you follow any of the Dev team on Twitter, it's very clear that the game is much further in its development cycle than we fans like to think it is. Voice actors are doing their thing--Greg Ellis tweeted (then deleted) a pic of himself in a Cullen VO session a while ago. Cameron Lee swooned over an unnamed voice actress last week (Hoping it's Claudia Black...fearing it's Felicia Day). Aaryn Flynn tweeted about PLAYING DA3 at lunch just after the game was confirmed.

Before any of that can happen, a story has to be laid down. You can't put the cart before the horse. Certain events have to be agreed upon and fleshed out. Sorry to say, but anything regarding our protagonist and his/her family has likely been decided upon for at least a year if not longer. I'm content to wait for more info, like concept art and perhaps even a demo. (I'm hoping we might get something juicy in Jan/Feb.) In the meantime, though, I'm grabbing some popcorn and kicking my feet up while I read some of the topics on BSN, because to read some of them, you'd think BW hasn't even started writing the story yet--that they're just sitting around, waiting for us fans to tell them what to write. The spaz-outs have been glorious.

Also, I think they all like to troll us, not just David...they are all like teenage girls. They know what they have, and they know we want it BAD, but they're not giving it up without making us work for it. Makes me think it's gonna be pretty sweet when we finally do get it.   (Either that, or it lasts ten seconds and leaves us filled with shame and embarrassment, but YMMV.)

[David Gaider]

Catia wrote...
Sorry to say, but anything regarding our protagonist and his/her family has likely been decided upon for at least a year if not longer.

This is true. Not that we couldn't change it, if we wished, but some things about a story are pretty fundamental and thus not changed lightly.

In the meantime, though, I'm grabbing some popcorn and kicking my feet up while I read some of the topics on BSN, because to read some of them, you'd think BW hasn't even started writing the story yet--that they're just sitting around, waiting for us fans to tell them what to write.

That's always the impression I get from BSN-- that if we aren't sitting by with pads in hand, waiting expectantly for instructions, that we aren't "listening". It's not quite true, obviously, but it certainly seems that way.

[upsettingshorts]

 Are you taking notes BioWare?

[Kharizma]

David Gaider wrote...

Catia wrote...
Sorry to say, but anything regarding our protagonist and his/her family has likely been decided upon for at least a year if not longer.

This is true. Not that we couldn't change it, if we wished, but some things about a story are pretty fundamental and thus not changed lightly.

In the meantime, though, I'm grabbing some popcorn and kicking my feet up while I read some of the topics on BSN, because to read some of them, you'd think BW hasn't even started writing the story yet--that they're just sitting around, waiting for us fans to tell them what to write.

That's always the impression I get from BSN-- that if we aren't sitting by with pads in hand, waiting expectantly for instructions, that we aren't "listening". It's not quite true, obviously, but it certainly seems that way.

Well, now I'm heartbroken! Guess I'll just scratch off the "Extra pads and pens" from my Christmas list for the writer's pit.  

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
That's always the impression I get from BSN-- that if we aren't sitting by with pads in hand, waiting expectantly for instructions, that we aren't "listening". It's not quite true, obviously, but it certainly seems that way.

Well, I think some of that comes from the transparency or lack thereof with the whole development process for a game like DA3. On one hand you have statements saying how much you guys listen to feedback and yet on the other its been radio silence for so long on anything concrete about DA3. So people likely have no clue as to where in the overall process of development the game is right now or even what that process looks like.

[Shadow Fox]

DavorTheDragon wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Yeah, I definitely saw a Disney complex with companions (in both games) and our PCs. Gaider likes destroying families more than the Chantry.

DAO

1. Alistair - never knew mother, don't want to have debate on who his mom is
2. Zevran - mother dies in childbirth
3. Leliana - mother dies at young age
4. Sten - never knew parents (Qunari thing)
5. Wynne- orphan, never knew real parents

(I think Oghren had dead parent issues too, I don't remember, he's got a very mysterious past. Where are his fangirls?)

DAO PC

1. Human Noble- Family murdered
2. Mage - never knew parents
3. Dwarf Noble - dead mom
4. City Elf - dead mom
5. Dwarf Commoner - no dad, taking care of drunk mother
6. Dalish - never knew parents, dad dead, mom abandons baby.

DA2
1. Aveline - mother dead, doesn't remember anything but "impossibly long hair"
2. Fenris- mother is dead, doesn't remember parents anyway
3. Anders - ripped from family, put in handcuffs and sent to Fereldan from Anderfels.
4. Merrill - sent to Sabrae clan at 4 from Nevarra to Fereldan
5. Isabela- never met father (which explains EVERYTHING in a creepy Freudian way)
6. Varric- father dies when he is young, he is taking care of drunk mother, who also dies when he is very young.

DA2
1. Hawke- Dad dead, one sibling guaranteed to die, mother guaranteed to die.

Yeah this sums it up nicely, not to mention in DA2 that you had the option of killing your other sibling, sending them away to be a warden and they hate you, or let them stay to be a templar/circle mage where they will most likely eventually die.

Perhaps Giader can find another way to kick us in the feels besides the dead family card.

Carver's glad to be a warden it's the sister who hates you which is why I now prefer Carver over Bethany Carver only get's pissed if you leave him behind Bethany hates you ethier way the ungrateful brat:P.

[LPPrince]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
That's always the impression I get from BSN-- that if we aren't sitting by with pads in hand, waiting expectantly for instructions, that we aren't "listening". It's not quite true, obviously, but it certainly seems that way.

Well, I think some of that comes from the transparency or lack thereof with the whole development process for a game like DA3. On one hand you have statements saying how much you guys listen to feedback and yet on the other its been radio silence for so long on anything concrete about DA3. So people likely have no clue as to where in the overall process of development the game is right now or even what that process looks like.

Anyone who's stuck around the BSN and Bioware games for years like we have should know by now that Bioware's well into development- they have to be.

But even if suggestions aren't taken for THIS game, suggestions can be implemented in later installments or in brand new franchises.

So to be honest- Anytime is a great time to make a suggestion.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Am I the only one who noticed that all LI in DAO are b*stards? It's a pretty funny coincidence.

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
Well, I think some of that comes from the transparency or lack thereof with the whole development process for a game like DA3. On one hand you have statements saying how much you guys listen to feedback and yet on the other its been radio silence for so long on anything concrete about DA3. So people likely have no clue as to where in the overall process of development the game is right now or even what that process looks like.

Depends on what kind of transparency you're looking for. If you mean developer diaries and so forth, that's likely to come-- but, again, not until we have something to show. That's part of the policy we've mentioned consistently, and that means that until we show something, the amount of conversation we can have is limited.

If you mean transparency in that we're going to talk about the things we're thinking about, but might end up cutting or changing, keeping you up to date on the process as it happens, no-- I wouldn't expect that, were I you. We have been collecting a lot of feedback in the year (more than, actually) since DA2 came out, and that's informed a lot of our decisions... but that means many of these decisions have been made. Things can indeed still change, but not fundamental things... and certainly not until and unless we can show what we've done. There's very little point in soliciting feedback for things based largely on fan speculation or assumptions based entirely on DA2.

So until we show more, patience is advisable. If that's not possible, my advice would be to take a break from the forums until we've revealed more for you to talk about. If even that's not possible, you're going to have to tolerate the rampant speculation-- but not assume that we're spending our time taking it very seriously at this point.

Modifié par David Gaider, 27 septembre 2012 - 09:22 .

[Shadow Fox]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I disliked Leandra the instant she blamed my Hawke for Carver's death. What a horrible parent.

People say things when they're upset.

When I called my grandmother to tell her that her son had died, she blamed the doctors and said they killed him.

After composing herself, she no longer held that belief.

As such, Leandra's outburst felt very real in my opinion. 

Hawke can actually bring that up via the purple option after the "new home" quest and she apologizes for it plus it's pretty much implied that Hawke took dad's role in the family*not THAT way* and fathers are expected to be able to protect their kids no matter what.

[Catia]

David Gaider wrote...
So until we show more, patience is advisable. If that's not possible, my advice would be to take a break from the forums until we've revealed more for you to talk about. If even that's not possible, you're going to have to tolerate the rampant speculation-- but not assume that we're spending our time taking it very seriously at this point.

I wish more people would keep this in mind. I wish even more people would remember that BioWare employees are professionals who are in this business not only to give us existing fans a game that we will enjoy, but also win over new viddathari fans. Putting out a game in which the fans have too much input is not the way to do that. Sometimes that entails surprises (gasp!) and not always caving to what the people want, because guess what? Not everybody wants the same exact thing (reading these boards should make that abundantly clear) and it is literally impossible to make every last DA series fan happy. And in regards to transparency...I'm not sure what people really expect. BioWare has been more than generous with fan interaction when compared to other game studios, in my experience. Just because they don't act like a genie in a bottle and grant all of our wishes, doesn't mean they're not listening. Sometimes we come up with ideas that just won't work within the overarching story that is Thedas in the Dragon Age.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
If you mean transparency in that we're going to talk about the things we're thinking about, but might end up cutting or changing, keeping you up to date on the process as it happens, no-- I wouldn't expect that, were I you. We have been collecting a lot of feedback in the year (more than, actually) since DA2 came out, and that's informed a lot of our decisions... but that means many of these decisions have been made.

I was thinking on an even broader level- nothing specifc that would be cut or would cause forum rage if you changed things, but more along the lines of what people are working on a given point in time from now to release. Like is the game in pre-production? Are the voice actors in the studio? That sort of thing. Like you said, probably a lot of high level decisions for the game have likely been made and are set in stone, even if certain specifics haven't. So why not speak to those broad directions where you guys think the game is headed? The kind of stuff you might get in a vision document? 

For instance, I have a pretty good idea what Obsidian is shooting for with Project Eternity or Fargo and InExile with Wasteland 2 or Mitsoda and Double Bear with Dead State. And those games are still far off. Given the changes from Origins to DA2, I don't know what to expect from DA3. It would be nice if those sort of big picture directions could be given  now that the game has at least been confirmed and officially announced.


I guess I just find the talk of greater transparency with DA3 combined with the insistence to not show anything until its done and set in stone a bit contradictory. Greater transparency would mean to me being more open about the direction you guys want to take and not leaving things to big surprises (good or bad) once things are actually shown. Yet in not showing anything until its all done, that seems like the whole process is remaining totally behind closed doors and lacking transparency and ending up with possible surprises in terms of reaction to where the game may be headed once things are actually shown.

Modifié par Brockololly, 28 septembre 2012 - 12:04 .