274 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

David Gaider wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
Good writers will care about all their characters, yes. Nevertheless, there *is* a certain amount of... I don't quite want to call it "glee" involved with knowing a scene is going to invoke certain emotions in the recipient of the story.

I would say "glee" is a good word, yes.

Even so, I'm curious why people tend to run with the assumption that we would repeat the same story elements. Yes, parents tend to be taken out of the picture à la the Hero's Journey, but insofar as we writers are concerned we'll move on to some other body part once the original gets too numb from all the punching. So asking us to not write the same story elicits a response which is generally "...okay?" Asking us to not punch you in the gut gets you a pat on the head and an "aww, muffin."

Oh no. No, no, no. Understand me: I WANT to be punched in the gut. Really.

I'm just saying, as someone who awoke one morning to find her mother dead, I'm just about tired of seeing it repeated in every form of media as if that makes one's life much more "EPIC OMG LOLOLOL".

You may not realize this, Mr. Gaider, but I'm kind of a mega-fan (re-reading "Asunder" now while underlining so I can properly dissect Cole, because that is bugging the bejeezus out of me), so I know you know how to finely craft a story, and when you use the death of a parent to advance a plot you're not doing it out of hand.

I would just like to humbly request we not repeat the dead mom thing. We've had it a few times. It's a sore spot with a rapidly growing callous over it. Let me be surprised by agony this time. It's my favorite thing about your writing.  

[nightcobra]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Mass Effect already did the whole 'keep the player character's mum alive' thing.

wasted potential if you ask me. 
there was so little interaction with her that i almost forgot shepard even had a mom.

[Masha Potato]

The mum is a lie

[Vandicus]

JobacNoor wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I would posit that people in general, aka the market, favors the happy story though.

They think they prefer the happy story, though one quick glance at the all-time best novels and films and you realise bittersweet or dark is better recieved.

Best is relative. The only objective standard I would use for market preference are sales numbers.

Examples of happy endings for novels/films that are incredibly popular are LoTR, Star Wars(original trilogy), Indianna Jones, Dragonlance(main series, Dragon of X), Disney fillms(recreations of classic fairy tails but with happy endings instead).

A Song of Ice and Fire may have an unhappy ending(we don't know yet), but its only recently become a huge name(when compared to the above mentioned series) because of the HBO series(and I think we both know why lots of people are watching that). 

I always found LoTR kind of bittersweet.

And I thought Game of Thrones was exceedingly popular because it has tons of great actors, it's visually very pleasing and features tremendous storytelling and character development especially considering that they have to somehow contain the vast tomes that the books are within 10 one hour episodes. Occasional boobies don't hurt.

I might've been totally hypocritical when I judged the GoT show without ever having watched it. Can you blame me? Its HBO. They have a name for being very much about the fan service.

LoTR's ending is pretty far away from anything that could be called a dark or downer ending. Boromir is the only member of the fellowship to die, and Frodo didn't have to make some sort've heroic sacrifice to save the world. LoTR is very much an example of a happy/heroic story set in a dark verse. For everyone but the main characters life generally sucks. But for the heroes, they almost all survive(except for the Judas), and get their respective happy endings. Aragorn king, gets the girl. Sam gets Rosie after they rescue the Shire. etc.

[Melca36]

How about a sibling trying to kill his brother or sister?

[Xilizhra]

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


If the cinammon is optional, take it. Just so long as there's chocolate as well.

That would require a toggle. Your suggestion that this kind of option still exists if it were possible to save Leandra for a "best choice" ending is false. In the case of choosing to not save the mother, that is simply refusing to exert effort or demonstrating some form of sociopathy. Its not enduring loss when the person has the choice of simply avoiding it and chooses not to. If the player chooses to allow the mother to be killed that's not really the same thing as a tragedy.

Also I'm not arguing against chocolate(now I'm feeling hungry). However the market does have an awful lot of chocolate muffins and very few cinammon muffins for people like me. I hope that Bioware sticks with cinammon.

We should define "cinammon" and "chocolate" more clearly. I'm fine with bittersweet and/or tragic events in the game... as long as they don't ruin my personal story, and my personal story is to come out alive with my LI. Both of those are things I consider non-negotiable. If it's possible for my parents and the rest of the party to survive, that's good too. There are many terrible things that can happen in-universe without damaging the integrity of the personal story I prefer.

Also, I consider George Martin's work, while possessing literary merit, to be personally distasteful and I doubt I'll enjoy anything modeled after it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 septembre 2012 - 05:24 .

[silentspec111]

Palipride47 wrote...

Yeah, I definitely saw a Disney complex with companions (in both games) and our PCs. Gaider likes destroying families more than the Chantry.......
*snip*

 

wow...never really gave this topic a thought. But now that you mention is this dead parent trend is really disturbing.. wished they did something like they did for ME series squadmates and shep parents...from what I remember(please correct me if I am wrong though)

**** Mass Effect SPOILERS ******




Shep-Spacer background can have his mother being alive

Garrus-Father is alive and kicking

Liara-Lost her mother but can reunite with her other parent if shep takes initiative

Thane/Samara-Dont know about their parents but both can save their children(granted not all of them for samara)

Ashley-Her mom and siblings are alive

Kaiden- No clue

Vega- granted his mom died and father left him but has an uncle who plays the role of a father figure

Only exceptions I can see is Tali ,Wrex and Grunt but given how the other squadmated origins vary in this regard it's not really a bad thing

(anyone reading this please correct me if i am wrong in any facts)



*******SPOLIER ENDS*******

Modifié par silentspec111, 25 septembre 2012 - 05:28 .

[Alan Rickman]

Vandicus wrote...

JobacNoor wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

I would posit that people in general, aka the market, favors the happy story though.

They think they prefer the happy story, though one quick glance at the all-time best novels and films and you realise bittersweet or dark is better recieved.

Best is relative. The only objective standard I would use for market preference are sales numbers.

Examples of happy endings for novels/films that are incredibly popular are LoTR, Star Wars(original trilogy), Indianna Jones, Dragonlance(main series, Dragon of X), Disney fillms(recreations of classic fairy tails but with happy endings instead).

A Song of Ice and Fire may have an unhappy ending(we don't know yet), but its only recently become a huge name(when compared to the above mentioned series) because of the HBO series(and I think we both know why lots of people are watching that). 

I always found LoTR kind of bittersweet.

And I thought Game of Thrones was exceedingly popular because it has tons of great actors, it's visually very pleasing and features tremendous storytelling and character development especially considering that they have to somehow contain the vast tomes that the books are within 10 one hour episodes. Occasional boobies don't hurt.

I might've been totally hypocritical when I judged the GoT show without ever having watched it. Can you blame me? Its HBO. They have a name for being very much about the fan service.

LoTR's ending is pretty far away from anything that could be called a dark or downer ending. Boromir is the only member of the fellowship to die, and Frodo didn't have to make some sort've heroic sacrifice to save the world. LoTR is very much an example of a happy/heroic story set in a dark verse. For everyone but the main characters life generally sucks. But for the heroes, they almost all survive(except for the Judas), and get their respective happy endings. Aragorn king, gets the girl. Sam gets Rosie after they rescue the Shire. etc.

Honestly, it's probably mostly the part where they sail away at the end that makes it bittersweet for me because I'm sensitive like that. Admittedly much more sweet than bitter.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


If the cinammon is optional, take it. Just so long as there's chocolate as well.

That would require a toggle. Your suggestion that this kind of option still exists if it were possible to save Leandra for a "best choice" ending is false. In the case of choosing to not save the mother, that is simply refusing to exert effort or demonstrating some form of sociopathy. Its not enduring loss when the person has the choice of simply avoiding it and chooses not to. If the player chooses to allow the mother to be killed that's not really the same thing as a tragedy.

Also I'm not arguing against chocolate(now I'm feeling hungry). However the market does have an awful lot of chocolate muffins and very few cinammon muffins for people like me. I hope that Bioware sticks with cinammon.

We should define "cinammon" and "chocolate" more clearly. I'm fine with bittersweet and/or tragic events in the game... as long as they don't ruin my personal story, and my personal story is to come out alive with my LI. Both of those are things I consider non-negotiable. If it's possible for my parents and the rest of the party to survive, that's good too. There are many terrible things that can happen in-universe without damaging the integrity of the personal story I prefer.

For me 

chocolate=happy ending

I would use DA:O as a good example. Happy ending for basically all scenarios is achievable. Now for everyone else life might really suck, but the Warden leads a charmed life. Heck they can even dodge the death by plot device ending that was heavily foreshadowed.

Even in games that start with sadness and feature loss heavily, the happy ending makes it clear that everything the hero did was worth doing, that everything that he did was worth suffering for. 

Cinammon=Tragedy

DA2 is a good example here. There is no happy ending for Hawke, and he's hit over and over again throughout the story, but never gives up. I really love this about this character.

In games with no positive payoff, the meaning of their struggle feels so much deeper. There's no certainty or even likelihood that they'll have their happy ending, but they never stop trying.

I'm of the opinion that its not really possible to mix chocolate and cinammon because a happy ending and a traditional tragedy are mutually exclusive. In the end I think Bioware will end up going with one or the other. Frankly I hope its my preference that they go with. 

[Xilizhra]

I ****ing hate tragedy, and the only reason I was able to like DA2's ending at all is because my perception is sufficiently warped that I saw it as a happy ending, or at least an ending better than the status quo: the mage rebellion has been kicked off, even if it takes another year or so to truly begin; all of Hawke's companions made it out alive, especially Merrill; we have to leave Kirkwall, but the place sucked anyway; and a lot of templars are dead, including Meredith. So no, I much prefer my preference, and would find it truly loathsome if they went with yours to the extent that you're talking about.

[Lithuasil]

Vandicus wrote...

snipped for accessibility

It's entirely possible to craft a story that's not as easily Identifiable as either, but to do so you're pretty much required to shift the focus to multiple protagonists, rather then just one.

[berelinde]

Oddly enough, many delicious desserts include both chocolate and cinnamon.

Between the drama theory Viennese table and the game composition Thanksgiving dinner going on in the "Tone down the romances" thread, I really do need to go get some food.

[Bekkael]

berelinde wrote...

Bekkael wrote...


Anders already lost his cat, so I would say that kittens have also been done. Perhaps it's time for a moving dog death ala Where the Red Fern Grows? The loss of Big Dan/Little Ann has stayed with me my entire life.

Keep away from my mabari! Seriously, that would definitely get the waterworks going.

Wouldn't it? I always love my dog companion, so that would make me cry too. Hopefully, they won't really do anything in DA3 to our dogs.

berelinde wrote...

Bekkael wrote... Also, as a serious aside, major props to whoever wrote the Mother Hawke death scene. That one made me do the ugly snot-nosed cry, and this is coming from someone who never shed a tear through all of ME3, despite how liberally it tugged on my heartstrings. I always have great respect for a writer who can make me cry. 

If you say so. It made me do epic eye rolls. Not saying that it wasn't good. It's just that on my first playthrough, it just served to underline how fictional it was. That Hawke was not fond of his mom. For him to fall apart on screen like that was kinda surreal.

Obviously, all reactions to "emotional scenes" will be guided by the player's life experiences and preferences. I have suffered the loss of a beloved parent IRL, so that is likely why those types of story threads hit me so hard. I ended up a blubbering mess the first time I hit that scene, right in front of my teenage son! YMMV.

Modifié par Bekkael, 25 septembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[berelinde]

Bekkael wrote...

Obviously, all reactions to "emotional scenes" will be guided by the player's life experiences and preferences. I have suffered the loss of a beloved parent IRL, so that is likely why those types of story threads hit me so hard. I ended up a blubbering mess the first time I hit that scene, right in front of my teenage son! YMMV.

So have I, but that isn't the point. Had Leandra been like my dad, I would have had a much easier time roleplaying abject grief, but she wasn't. I had a hard time roleplaying a Hawke who regarded her death with anything but conflicting emotions.

[DragonRacer]

Bekkael wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Bekkael wrote...


Anders already lost his cat, so I would say that kittens have also been done. Perhaps it's time for a moving dog death ala Where the Red Fern Grows? The loss of Big Dan/Little Ann has stayed with me my entire life.

Keep away from my mabari! Seriously, that would definitely get the waterworks going.

Wouldn't it? I always love my dog companion, so that would make me cry too. Hopefully, they won't really do anything in DA3 to our dogs.

berelinde wrote...

Bekkael wrote... Also, as a serious aside, major props to whoever wrote the Mother Hawke death scene. That one made me do the ugly snot-nosed cry, and this is coming from someone who never shed a tear through all of ME3, despite how liberally it tugged on my heartstrings. I always have great respect for a writer who can make me cry. 

If you say so. It made me do epic eye rolls. Not saying that it wasn't good. It's just that on my first playthrough, it just served to underline how fictional it was. That Hawke was not fond of his mom. For him to fall apart on screen like that was kinda surreal.

Obviously, all reactions to "emotional scenes" will be guided by the player's life experiences and preferences. I have suffered the loss of a beloved parent IRL, so that is likely why those types of story threads hit me so hard. I ended up a blubbering mess the first time I hit that scene, right in front of my teenage son! YMMV.

Yup, and people have different levels of emotionality as well. What hits one person in the feels will not necessarily hit someone else that way. I lean more towards the lots-of-feels side. That scene got to me, too, because I had such a close relationship with my mother (at the time I played DA2, she was still alive), so naturally I RPed my first Hawke that way as well. Now... I'm not entirely sure how that scene may affect me going forward. Lost my Mom in January and haven't replayed DA2 since that happened... but I have thought back on that scene and feel a gut-punch knowing that I, as a person, can actually relate to that scene on a whole different level now than I did when I experienced it prior to losing her.

[Alan Rickman]

Bekkael wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Bekkael wrote...


Anders already lost his cat, so I would say that kittens have also been done. Perhaps it's time for a moving dog death ala Where the Red Fern Grows? The loss of Big Dan/Little Ann has stayed with me my entire life.

Keep away from my mabari! Seriously, that would definitely get the waterworks going.

Wouldn't it? I always love my dog companion, so that would make me cry too. Hopefully, they won't really do anything in DA3 to our dogs.

Better hope a quest doesn't show up in your quest log titled "Mabari and me".

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vandicus wrote...

LoTR's ending is pretty far away from anything that could be called a dark or downer ending. Boromir is the only member of the fellowship to die, and Frodo didn't have to make some sort've heroic sacrifice to save the world. LoTR is very much an example of a happy/heroic story set in a dark verse. For everyone but the main characters life generally sucks. But for the heroes, they almost all survive(except for the Judas), and get their respective happy endings. Aragorn king, gets the girl. Sam gets Rosie after they rescue the Shire. etc.

I don't think you understood the Lord of the Rings at all.

The quest in the Lord of the Rings is more than just to save the world - it's to preserve the world as it is.  And Frodo fails in that quest.  The shire is scoured.  The elves leave.  I find the end of LotR incredibly depressing.

[Bekkael]

berelinde wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Obviously, all reactions to "emotional scenes" will be guided by the player's life experiences and preferences. I have suffered the loss of a beloved parent IRL, so that is likely why those types of story threads hit me so hard. I ended up a blubbering mess the first time I hit that scene, right in front of my teenage son! YMMV.

So have I, but that isn't the point. Had Leandra been like my dad, I would have had a much easier time roleplaying abject grief, but she wasn't. I had a hard time roleplaying a Hawke who regarded her death with anything but conflicting emotions.

I was most upset by the fact that there was no way for my Hawke to stop it. Perhaps it emulated real life a little too much for me, so it pushed my buttons. Who can say? Most of my friends talked about how they sobbed at numerous points while playing Mass Effect 3, while I have played through it 4+ times and have yet to shed a single tear, even though I found much of it moving....just not enough to make me cry. Emotional responses defy logic, I suppose.

DragonRacer wrote...
Yup, and people have different levels of emotionality as well. What hits one person in the feels will not necessarily hit someone else that way. I lean more towards the lots-of-feels side. That scene got to me, too, because I had such a close relationship with my mother (at the time I played DA2, she was still alive), so naturally I RPed my first Hawke that way as well. Now... I'm not entirely sure how that scene may affect me going forward. Lost my Mom in January and haven't replayed DA2 since that happened... but I have thought back on that scene and feel a  gut-punch knowing that I, as a person, can actually relate to that scene on a whole different level now than I did when I experienced it prior to losing her.

I'm sorry for your loss. We all see life through the colored lenses of our own experiences, don't we? Grief didn't become real to me as an emotion until I experienced it myself. Before that, it was just a concept that I sympathised with, but didn't truly understand. I also discovered that the grieving process takes years to go through (for me, anyway) and that was a big shock.

I really don't think most writers can write believable heartbreak or grief if they haven't lived it or experienced it firsthand.

Modifié par Bekkael, 25 septembre 2012 - 06:20 .

[ShaggyWolf]

I never thought Leandra's death was bad writing, I think that's just what people call it because there was no way to win in that situation, and people don't like that. I don't either, but I also don't like how one can save Isolde and Connor in Redcliffe, without repercussions or cost if they work at it a little bit. That just felt cheap, and I believe that it was a weaker writing decision than it was to kill Leandra. Fortunately, I can work around that by playing Redcliffe first and doing the blood magic ritual, since I have no other options and I get a more meaningful scenario that way.

The games would be so lame if we could save anyone whenever we want. What if I could've completely saved Shainni from Vaughn in DA:O? Or Duncan at Ostagar? What would be the point of writing these conflicts at all if we played as a protagonist that can just solve all the problems perfectly without cost?

Imo, Dragon Age needs more situations like Leandra, Shianni, the Couslands, and Duncan.

Just as long as they don't arbitrarily kill off the PC again like ME3 (Sorry but genocide for the sake of personal survival is not and should not be an option) . I don't care if I have to do something like the Dark Ritual, which could have dire consequences later, but I absolutely loathe the idea of spending 100+ hours on a campaign like DA:O, just to watch my PC die. Words cannot express how thankful I am for the dark ritual alternative. ME3 was horrible though since I spent 3 freaking games living in and learning about this incredible galaxy, making relationships and enemies, then I have to jump into a lazer to save it all. That was pathetic!

[syllogi]

Bekkael wrote...

Obviously, all reactions to "emotional scenes" will be guided by the player's life experiences and preferences. I have suffered the loss of a beloved parent IRL, so that is likely why those types of story threads hit me so hard. I ended up a blubbering mess the first time I hit that scene, right in front of my teenage son! YMMV.

Both of my parents are alive, but I am permanently estranged from my father and have a very complex love/hate relationship with my mother.  My grandmother raised me until I was a teenager and was the only stabilizing force in my childhood, and I found her body when she died.  I was deeply depressed afterwards, and it literally took me a year to get to the acceptance stage of grieving for her.

Death of a loved one is pretty devastating, but I have to say that I wasn't feeling the sad when Hawke says goodbye to Leandra.  I did feel sorry for the characters, but that was because, as a player, I felt helpless.  Every time I play out that quest line, it will never change.  I can never save Leandra, or stop Hawke from losing her mother.  That is frustrating, more than sad to me.  And of course, the death of Hawke's sibling from the prologue is even less impactful, because we've just met them, and I know it's a game mechanic that will sideline one of them until the next time I choose a different class.  Not very emotional.

I think what it comes down to, is that giving us no choice but a negative outcome (DEAD FAMILY EVERYWHERE) can be just as unimpactful as if the only outcome were kittens and roses.  J.E. Sawyer was posting in a thread about Project Eternity recently, and he said something pretty interesting about choice in games:

I believe choice should be difficult to be compelling. Two choices that are "equally good" do not produce a dilemma. Two choices that are picked from at random because you can't forecast the consequences of either also do not produce a dilemma. Two choices that clearly give and take away from things that players will value differently, that[/i] produces a dilemma. Orestes had a dilemma. Antigone had a dilemma. The consequences of the player's actions do not need to be on par with those of Orestes or Antigone, but the underlying struggle, agony in some measure, should be a goal.

So yeah, I'm not saying, "don't kill my game mommies anymore, please" (although it would be refreshing to explore a parent-child relationship more fully), but in situations like All That Remains, giving us choices, even if none of the outcomes are fully positive, can be more satisfying than knowing the outcome is static.

[Bekkael]

JobacNoor wrote...
Better hope a quest doesn't show up in your quest log titled "Mabari and me".

It won't happen, there would be too much rage. You just can't go messing with a player's Mabari.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I have a request too.

Don't give us noble parents. They bore me. In fact, don't give me any parents!

[Tebjorn]

After reading this topic, I cant stop thinking that this guy is David Gaider going through protagonist home village.

[Bekkael]

syllogi wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Obviously, all reactions to "emotional scenes" will be guided by the player's life experiences and preferences. I have suffered the loss of a beloved parent IRL, so that is likely why those types of story threads hit me so hard. I ended up a blubbering mess the first time I hit that scene, right in front of my teenage son! YMMV.

Both of my parents are alive, but I am permanently estranged from my father and have a very complex love/hate relationship with my mother.  My grandmother raised me until I was a teenager and was the only stabilizing force in my childhood, and I found her body when she died.  I was deeply depressed afterwards, and it literally took me a year to get to the acceptance stage of grieving for her.

Death of a loved one is pretty devastating, but I have to say that I wasn't feeling the sad when Hawke says goodbye to Leandra.  I did feel sorry for the characters, but that was because, as a player, I felt helpless.  Every time I play out that quest line, it will never change.  I can never save Leandra, or stop Hawke from losing her mother.  That is frustrating, more than sad to me.  And of course, the death of Hawke's sibling from the prologue is even less impactful, because we've just met them, and I know it's a game mechanic that will sideline one of them until the next time I choose a different class.  Not very emotional.

I think what it comes down to, is that giving us no choice but a negative outcome (DEAD FAMILY EVERYWHERE) can be just as unimpactful as if the only outcome were kittens and roses.  J.E. Sawyer was posting in a thread about Project Eternity recently, and he said something pretty interesting about choice in games:

I believe choice should be difficult to be compelling. Two choices that are "equally good" do not produce a dilemma. Two choices that are picked from at random because you can't forecast the consequences of either also do not produce a dilemma. Two choices that clearly give and take away from things that players will value differently, that[/i] produces a dilemma. Orestes had a dilemma. Antigone had a dilemma. The consequences of the player's actions do not need to be on par with those of Orestes or Antigone, but the underlying struggle, agony in some measure, should be a goal.

So yeah, I'm not saying, "don't kill my game mommies anymore, please" (although it would be refreshing to explore a parent-child relationship more fully), but in situations like All That Remains, giving us choices, even if none of the outcomes are fully positive, can be more satisfying than knowing the outcome is static.

Well put, and I agree that choice is always preferable in gameplay. I'm sure in game-making utopia, there would be plently of time and an endless supply of finances to add in lots of different paths. Sadly, I think DA2 lacked both. I also think such limitations are more of a factor when everything is fully voiced with lots of cut scenes. That stuff has got to be expensive to produce.

(So excited about Project Eternity and glad to have supported them!)

[goofyomnivore]

I don't exactly know why, but Mhairi dying in DA:A was more upsetting and impactful to me than Leandra dying. I went through the rest of the game on edge, wondering who else am I going to conscript to their death. With Leandra's death I was just like oh, 'more angst, your life sucks Hawke what's new'. Maybe I was just angst out by then.