148 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Emzamination wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

In this day and age? yes. Fallout one and two are unplayable trash compared to fallout 3 and new vegas, the same goes for baldur's gate and dragon age.The same goes for the old elder scrolls series pre oblivion/skyrim.

And this is why the game industry is in a rut of creating samey, brown, dumbed-down, oversimplistic garbage. This is why RPGs are dying a slow death through homogenisation and why BioWare are on the slippery slope they are. Because they're all pandering to this type of mentality and this type of gamer.

I'll take my dumbed down oversimplistic Dragon age magic system over your self-limiting Bg vancian spell casting system any day of the week.This is like comparing the cave man's stone wheel or the wooden cart wheel to the modern rubber tire.Get out the Dark ages, terror

Did you spend this whole time wiki'ing the Bg combat system just to give yourself a small platform to argue from?

[mnomaha]

Terror_K wrote...

You're wasting your breath, the game already IS dumbed down and "streamlined", and they're sticking more with all the BS stuff that DA2 introduced than going back to their roots. They're too damn committed to their new pandering mentality and too concerned about mainstreamlining everything so that braindead chimps can get through the game without getting confused.

If it isn't obvious enough, BioWare don't WANT to make RPGs any more, and so-called "Dragon Age 3" will be no exception. Just another watered-down, story-driven action game with light RPG elements that relies too much on cinematics and uses them as a crutch that dictates the gameplay instead of as a tool to enhance it.

It saddens (and even sickens) me that there are so many people supporting BioWare and Dragon Age 3 in these forums considering how they've treated the fanbase over the last few years and the way they pretty much murdered the Dragon Age IP with the second "game" in the series. They'll never learn so long as people keep throwing money at them and don't have enough integrity to walk away when they should.

I'd venture to say you won't care but....you are currently my favourite person on the internet. Well said!

[Emzamination]

The Hierophant wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

In this day and age? yes. Fallout one and two are unplayable trash compared to fallout 3 and new vegas, the same goes for baldur's gate and dragon age.The same goes for the old elder scrolls series pre oblivion/skyrim.

And this is why the game industry is in a rut of creating samey, brown, dumbed-down, oversimplistic garbage. This is why RPGs are dying a slow death through homogenisation and why BioWare are on the slippery slope they are. Because they're all pandering to this type of mentality and this type of gamer.

I'll take my dumbed down oversimplistic Dragon age magic system over your self-limiting Bg vancian spell casting system any day of the week.This is like comparing the cave man's stone wheel or the wooden cart wheel to the modern rubber tire.Get out the Dark ages, terror

Did you spend this whole time wiki'ing the Bg combat system just to give yourself a small platform to argue from?

Of course.It couldn't have had anything to do with me actually playing through the series as a child or those other non-existent threads this forum is never filled with

Modifié par Emzamination, 27 septembre 2012 - 02:45 .

[The Hierophant]

Emzamination wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

In this day and age? yes. Fallout one and two are unplayable trash compared to fallout 3 and new vegas, the same goes for baldur's gate and dragon age.The same goes for the old elder scrolls series pre oblivion/skyrim.

And this is why the game industry is in a rut of creating samey, brown, dumbed-down, oversimplistic garbage. This is why RPGs are dying a slow death through homogenisation and why BioWare are on the slippery slope they are. Because they're all pandering to this type of mentality and this type of gamer.

I'll take my dumbed down oversimplistic Dragon age magic system over your self-limiting Bg vancian spell casting system any day of the week.This is like comparing the cave man's stone wheel or the wooden cart wheel to the modern rubber tire.Get out the Dark ages, terror

Did you spend this whole time wiki'ing the Bg combat system just to give yourself a small platform to argue from?

Of course.It couldn't have had anything to do with me actually playing through the series as a child or those other non-existent threads this forum is never filled with

*edit* Something is still off by your post. I don't know what it is but i'll get to the bottom of it.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 27 septembre 2012 - 02:52 .

[Shadow Fox]

Derp

[Dave of Canada]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

The old school RPGs suck....
Request denied.

Not sure if trolling.

[Lithuasil]

Dave of Canada wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

The old school RPGs suck....
Request denied.

Not sure if trolling.

Looks reasonable to me.

[Emzamination]

Lithuasil wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

The old school RPGs suck....
Request denied.

Not sure if trolling.

Looks reasonable to me.

Motion seconded.

[The Hierophant]

Emzamination wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

The old school RPGs suck....
Request denied.

Not sure if trolling.

Looks reasonable to me.

Motion seconded.

Nope, it's like saying Mitt Romney empathizes with the American middle class, and poor.

[Mr.House]

Lithuasil wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

The old school RPGs suck....
Request denied.

Not sure if trolling.

Looks reasonable to me.

Project Eternity and how quickly it got past it's first goal contradicts that.

[Dave of Canada]

I understand having the personal opinion of disliking old RPGs, though to claim they sucked is folly. There's a reason they have such a large following, why Project Eternity and Wasteland 2 is being praised and why some people consider these games classics.

Hell, look at Planescape.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 27 septembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Emzamination]

The Hierophant wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

The old school RPGs suck....
Request denied.

Not sure if trolling.

Looks reasonable to me.

Motion seconded.

Nope, it's like saying Mitt Romney empathizes with the American middle class, and poor.

He doesn't?   wait don't answer that.

[Lithuasil]

Mr.House wrote...

Project Eternity and how quickly it got past it's first goal contradicts that.

Project Eternity has proven precisely one thing - that there's money to be made on people with nostalgia in their eyes. That's not exactly news.

[Joy Divison]

Emzamination wrote...

I'll take my dumbed down oversimplistic Dragon age magic system over your self-limiting Bg vancian spell casting system any day of the week.This is like comparing the cave man's stone wheel or the wooden cart wheel to the modern rubber tire.Get out the Dark ages, terror

I'm guessing you don't work in sales or marketing

[Mr.House]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I understand having the personal opinion of disliking old RPGs, though to claim they sucked is folly. There's a reason they have such a large following, why Project Eternity and Wasteland 2 is being praised and why some people consider these games classics.

Hell, look at Planescape.

For me, the only recent rpg to come close to overtopping PS:T as the best rpg story was TW2, very close, like BG2. Sadly like BG2, there was somethings that kept it back, thus PS:T is still in my eyes the best rpg, in terms of characters and story. I just want Bioware to wow me again. Is that too much to ask for?

This is of course my opinion so your mileage may vary.

Modifié par Mr.House, 27 septembre 2012 - 03:33 .

[Emzamination]

Joy Divison wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I'll take my dumbed down oversimplistic Dragon age magic system over your self-limiting Bg vancian spell casting system any day of the week.This is like comparing the cave man's stone wheel or the wooden cart wheel to the modern rubber tire.Get out the Dark ages, terror

I'm guessing you don't work in sales or marketing

Yep, that's me, Anti-Bs

[Terror_K]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I am consistently impressed by your ability to take a business decision and try to portray it as if Bioware was intentionally spiting you because they chose to do something other than what you wanted.  You actually seem to want Bioware to not make profit one of their goals. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

It's not about them making "something other than what I wanted" at all. It's about them making something that wasn't even consistent with the original formula and conceit of the Dragon Age IP. The fact that this happens to be something I want is largely irrelevant to the point at hand beyond the fact that it's the reason I'm complaining about it. A game series (or any series, for that matter) should maintain consistency and stay true to itself, and Dragon Age didn't. At all.

That's the problem here. I'm only expecting Dragon Age to still be what Dragon Age was originally meant to be. It's not like I'm going around the Infinity Ward forums yelling at them because Modern Warfare 3 wasn't a tactical RPG. I don't expect them to pander to me as a non-fan of their style of games, just like I don't expect BioWare to pander to non-RPG fans by watering down their games. What's the point in being a fan of Dragon Age, or anything else, when it can completely toss its identity down the drain at the drop of a hat for the sake of a new audience, throwing away that which defines it and makes it what it is?

After watching Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc. I don't expect to go to see The Avengers and suddenly get a period drama or a silly comedy with Will Ferrell and Ben Stiller. Similarly, I don't got into Dragon Age 2 after playing an epic, tactical fantasy RPG for the PC that's a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate with loads of roleplaying options to get a watered down, dumbed-down action hack'n'slash console game with a completely different visual style, an overreliance on cinematics, less than half the options and being forced into playing a particular human. NWN2 is closer to Dragon Age: Origins in style than DA2 is.

As for your final point, well... it's not like DA:O was a massive financial failure now, was it? In fact, I recall BioWare saying it was their most successful IP to date before DA2 came out. Which just proves that it didn't even need a reboot. Typical case of modern BioWare "fixing" something that was never broken, all because they want to "broaden appeal" and "make it more accessible" and all these other buzzwords that just mean "dumb it down for the mainstream masses" in the end.

mnomaha wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

You're wasting your breath, the game already IS dumbed down and "streamlined", and they're sticking more with all the BS stuff that DA2 introduced than going back to their roots. They're too damn committed to their new pandering mentality and too concerned about mainstreamlining everything so that braindead chimps can get through the game without getting confused.

If it isn't obvious enough, BioWare don't WANT to make RPGs any more, and so-called "Dragon Age 3" will be no exception. Just another watered-down, story-driven action game with light RPG elements that relies too much on cinematics and uses them as a crutch that dictates the gameplay instead of as a tool to enhance it.

It saddens (and even sickens) me that there are so many people supporting BioWare and Dragon Age 3 in these forums considering how they've treated the fanbase over the last few years and the way they pretty much murdered the Dragon Age IP with the second "game" in the series. They'll never learn so long as people keep throwing money at them and don't have enough integrity to walk away when they should.

I'd venture to say you won't care but....you are currently my favourite person on the internet. Well said!

No, I appreciate such sentiments a lot actually. Thank you. It's always good to know there's still some intelligence in this universe whenever possible.

Modifié par Terror_K, 27 septembre 2012 - 03:51 .

[Zjarcal]

Terror_K wrote...

No, I appreciate such sentiments a lot actually. Thank you. It's always good to know there's still some intelligence in this universe whenever possible.

It's not found in your head though. :innocent:

[Mr.House]

Terror_K wrote...


No, I appreciate such sentiments a lot actually. Thank you. It's always good to know there's still some intelligence in this universe whenever possible.

So because people enjoyed DA2, and even admitted their flaws, and also still loved DAO and are looking forward to DA3:I or at least watching and having an open mind to give it a chance, they are not intelligent? Really?

[Lithuasil]

Mr.House wrote...
So because people enjoyed DA2, and even admitted their flaws, and also still loved DAO and are looking forward to DA3:I or at least watching and having an open mind to give it a chance, they are not intelligent? Really?

This is BSN - the interactive browser-based trench warfare simulator. You're only allowed to like either DAO or DA2, no exceptions.
(Also, since you liked Witcher2, I'm afraid I am contractually obligated to hate you.)

[Mr.House]

Lithuasil wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
So because people enjoyed DA2, and even admitted their flaws, and also still loved DAO and are looking forward to DA3:I or at least watching and having an open mind to give it a chance, they are not intelligent? Really?

This is BSN - the interactive browser-based trench warfare simulator. You're only allowed to like either DAO or DA2, no exceptions.
(Also, since you liked Witcher2, I'm afraid I am contractually obligated to hate you.)

And I like PS:T,FO,FO2,Icewind Dale 1,Icewind Dale 2,NWN+NWN2 with MOTB,Wasteland BG1+2+expansions, TW,TW2, FO:NV,Arena,Daggerfall,Morrowind and I'm looking forward to PE I'm a giant mess.

Oh I also like Halo.

Modifié par Mr.House, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:02 .

[Joy Divison]

Emzamination wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I'll take my dumbed down oversimplistic Dragon age magic system over your self-limiting Bg vancian spell casting system any day of the week.This is like comparing the cave man's stone wheel or the wooden cart wheel to the modern rubber tire.Get out the Dark ages, terror

I'm guessing you don't work in sales or marketing

Yep, that's me, Anti-Bs

Touche

Modifié par Joy Divison, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:02 .

[Shadow Fox]

Mr.House wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
So because people enjoyed DA2, and even admitted their flaws, and also still loved DAO and are looking forward to DA3:I or at least watching and having an open mind to give it a chance, they are not intelligent? Really?

This is BSN - the interactive browser-based trench warfare simulator. You're only allowed to like either DAO or DA2, no exceptions.
(Also, since you liked Witcher2, I'm afraid I am contractually obligated to hate you.)

And I like PS:T,FO,FO2,Icewind Dale 1,Icewind Dale 2,NWN+NWN2 with MOTB,Wasteland BG1+2+expansions, TW,TW2, FO:NV,Arena,Daggerfall,Morrowind and I'm looking forward to PE I'm a giant mess.

Oh I also like Halo.

...Burn the Heretic!**

[Lithuasil]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
So because people enjoyed DA2, and even admitted their flaws, and also still loved DAO and are looking forward to DA3:I or at least watching and having an open mind to give it a chance, they are not intelligent? Really?

This is BSN - the interactive browser-based trench warfare simulator. You're only allowed to like either DAO or DA2, no exceptions.
(Also, since you liked Witcher2, I'm afraid I am contractually obligated to hate you.)

And I like PS:T,FO,FO2,Icewind Dale 1,Icewind Dale 2,NWN+NWN2 with MOTB,Wasteland BG1+2+expansions, TW,TW2, FO:NV,Arena,Daggerfall,Morrowind and I'm looking forward to PE I'm a giant mess.

Oh I also like Halo.

...Burn the Heretic!**

Bring out the comfy chair?

[Vandicus]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
A. The complexity of the system does not have a direct correlation to how deep it is. THACO, percentile strength, lots of the things that were streamlined into 3rd edition had no effect on depth. The small amount of depth that was lost from 2nd to 3rd was largely the monster specific fluff that had become crunch. Not related to streamlining the system at all.

No? What about about removal of magic items creations? Do you have any idea how it contributed to my roleplaying back then? Do not assume you know how general RPGer play their game. It's common flaw constantly made by gamemasters.

Vandicus wrote...

B. Illusion of choice is the only choice you'll ever have in an rpg.

Really? It never occur to me until I play BioWare's games. Hell, I dont even feel all classics TSR/SSI RPG published by Wizard of Oz offer me illusion of choices. Choices could lead to death especially for novices who cannot learn how to restrain themselves from wandering into high level monsters' territories.
 Even the stats progression have an impact on combat. Do you aware my warrior could deal extra 10 damage just with 1 point of strength? I could make different warriors and knights just by playing around stats. Each Con, Int, Dex and STR ( and even charisma ) translate very well into my play and MY STORY. 

Vandicus wrote...

JRPG does not attempt to manufacture illusion of choice, WRPG does.

Why should JRPG be? JRPG is never about the player. It's about showing animation with preset character to movie fans or combat/action players.

Vandicus wrote...


C. You don't actually make meaningful choices in a sandbox rpg. Sandbox rpgs give you a system to play in, but its just the crpg system minus plot and story.

A crpg is what that matter. Not plot or story since you can create plot or story all by yourself as long as you have the pieces to stick them together into a complete story of your own.

Vandicus wrote...



Now some people enjoy playing singleplayer entirely internally roleplayed characters, but internal roleplaying is not a facet of PnP. PnP roleplaying is external.

Precisely. That is why we have Neverwinter Nights toolset and TES construction Kit. We don't only imagine. We create them in our play,  journey and make it happen.

Magic item creation exists beyond 2nd and 1st ed(4e abandons this but 4e is an example of removing options to reduce complexity rather than streamlining). 
Wandering into high level zones in a video game does not constitute a meaningful roleplaying "choice"
You seem to have a fascination with combining high levels of crunch with your roleplaying. That's fine and all, but that hardly means that heavy crunch is necessary to roleplay. 


Using a toolset to create a module type event is also no more than the illusion of choice. Modules are railroads. Online DMing features and stuff are cool and useful, but they aren't part of the CRPG itself. Nor are they part of the edition in use. At all. Online DMing can be done with any edition of any rpg system. 


Your insistence seems to be that the ruleset being used is the #1 thing in a computer roleplaying game. I find that view somewhat odd to say the least. Also, your assertion that there is some uncrossable divide between DMs and players laughable. I've been both. Most every DM I know is also a player in other campaigns.