148 réponses à ce sujet

[hussey 92]

AppealToReason wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

I can't say I'm an expert on old school rpg's (cause i'm not), but I would like something more challenging then DA2 (much more challenging). I doubt that would happen though cause bioware doesn't want to lose the COD fans.

Did you consider DA:A or DA:O challenging on nightmare? Have you beaten DA2 on nightmare? I found DA:A and DA:O ludicrously easy because of how unbalanced the gear and classes were. I mean there were a lot of posts around about how hard the Harvester was on nightmare, but anything half-way optimized imported from Awakening makes it a cakewalk. DA2 it wasn't so easy to optimized god-characters. All my chars pick up their 100% dodge and 100% magic resistance gear as soon as possible in Awakening, and I think last time I checked the Origins pieces add up to about 60% dodge with 100% magic resistance.

Not mention you cant guzzle health&mana potions in 2 like Origins

While DA2 wasn't exactly a difficult game, the implication that it was somehow easier than Origins/Awakening is silly. The move to the "CoD-like" DA2 was clearly accompanied by a difficulty increase, not decrease.

I've played the hell out of every CoD since 4 and at no point rock'n'rolling through DA2 did I ever think the 2 games were anything alike.

I was refering to Bioware saying they wanted COD's audiance. 

[Gabey5]

I agree. The vast majority of players getting this game are familiar with dao and da2 as well as other rpg mechanics. Streamlining for casual players and hand holding levels just ruins games. Also please go by the assumption that we have played the previous games. This is the third instalment if they have not been paying attention it is their fault. I think it is fair to expect people to be able to handle classic rpg mechanics when purchasing an rpg, and if they can they can learn

[Mr.House]

Gabey5 wrote...

I agree. The vast majority of players getting this game are familiar with dao and da2 as well as other rpg mechanics. Streamlining for casual players and hand holding levels just ruins games. Also please go by the assumption that we have played the previous games. This is the third instalment if they have not been paying attention it is their fault. I think it is fair to expect people to be able to handle classic rpg mechanics when purchasing an rpg, and if they can they can learn

And tbh, it's really not that hard to learn. There's plenty of guides, helpful people ect that if you really are having a problem just ask for help. There's nothing wrong asking for help.

[Lithuasil]

Gabey5 wrote...

I agree. The vast majority of players getting this game are familiar with dao and da2 as well as other rpg mechanics. Streamlining for casual players and hand holding levels just ruins games. Also please go by the assumption that we have played the previous games. This is the third instalment if they have not been paying attention it is their fault. I think it is fair to expect people to be able to handle classic rpg mechanics when purchasing an rpg, and if they can they can learn

Pray tell, why would we stick to those "classic" mechanics, no matter what? Because a lot of those mechanics are pretty damn awful.

[Vandicus]

Mr.House wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

I agree. The vast majority of players getting this game are familiar with dao and da2 as well as other rpg mechanics. Streamlining for casual players and hand holding levels just ruins games. Also please go by the assumption that we have played the previous games. This is the third instalment if they have not been paying attention it is their fault. I think it is fair to expect people to be able to handle classic rpg mechanics when purchasing an rpg, and if they can they can learn

And tbh, it's really not that hard to learn. There's plenty of guides, helpful people ect that if you really are having a problem just ask for help. There's nothing wrong asking for help.

But DA:O doesn't employ classic rpg mechanics. 

[Mr.House]

Vandicus wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

I agree. The vast majority of players getting this game are familiar with dao and da2 as well as other rpg mechanics. Streamlining for casual players and hand holding levels just ruins games. Also please go by the assumption that we have played the previous games. This is the third instalment if they have not been paying attention it is their fault. I think it is fair to expect people to be able to handle classic rpg mechanics when purchasing an rpg, and if they can they can learn

And tbh, it's really not that hard to learn. There's plenty of guides, helpful people ect that if you really are having a problem just ask for help. There's nothing wrong asking for help.

But DA:O doesn't employ classic rpg mechanics. 

True, it employs alot of MMO mechanics.Which again, there is alot of resources for help.

[John Epler]

hussey 92 wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

I can't say I'm an expert on old school rpg's (cause i'm not), but I would like something more challenging then DA2 (much more challenging). I doubt that would happen though cause bioware doesn't want to lose the COD fans.

Did you consider DA:A or DA:O challenging on nightmare? Have you beaten DA2 on nightmare? I found DA:A and DA:O ludicrously easy because of how unbalanced the gear and classes were. I mean there were a lot of posts around about how hard the Harvester was on nightmare, but anything half-way optimized imported from Awakening makes it a cakewalk. DA2 it wasn't so easy to optimized god-characters. All my chars pick up their 100% dodge and 100% magic resistance gear as soon as possible in Awakening, and I think last time I checked the Origins pieces add up to about 60% dodge with 100% magic resistance.

Not mention you cant guzzle health&mana potions in 2 like Origins

While DA2 wasn't exactly a difficult game, the implication that it was somehow easier than Origins/Awakening is silly. The move to the "CoD-like" DA2 was clearly accompanied by a difficulty increase, not decrease.

I've played the hell out of every CoD since 4 and at no point rock'n'rolling through DA2 did I ever think the 2 games were anything alike.

I was refering to Bioware saying they wanted COD's audiance. 

Ah, the infamous 'COD' quote. Let's clear up what was actually said.

What was said was along the lines of 'there are a lot of RPG elements in COD, and a lot of the people who only ever really play COD and a couple of other games might enjoy our games - we can use those commonalities to draw them in'. What folks heard, of course, was 'we don't care about RPG gamers, we just want people who play COD because there are more of them' which, of course, isn't true in the slightest.

And it's not an unfair sentiment at all, really - one of the biggest things that pulls people through COD multiplayer is the carrot of levelling up. Prestige was one of the most cynically brilliant ideas I've ever seen in regards to keeping people engaged with your product and only your product.

Let's put the idea to rest, however, that what we were saying was anything other than 'people who don't think they like RPGs might be surprised and find that they actually like them. A lot of people play COD, which has some light RPG mechanics, and we can use that commonality in such a way as to entice them to try our games.'

Modifié par John Epler, 27 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[Vandicus]

Mr.House wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

I agree. The vast majority of players getting this game are familiar with dao and da2 as well as other rpg mechanics. Streamlining for casual players and hand holding levels just ruins games. Also please go by the assumption that we have played the previous games. This is the third instalment if they have not been paying attention it is their fault. I think it is fair to expect people to be able to handle classic rpg mechanics when purchasing an rpg, and if they can they can learn

And tbh, it's really not that hard to learn. There's plenty of guides, helpful people ect that if you really are having a problem just ask for help. There's nothing wrong asking for help.

But DA:O doesn't employ classic rpg mechanics. 

True, it employs alot of MMO mechanics.Which again, there is alot of resources for help.

When people are really asking for DA:O mechanics and say they want classical rpg mechanics, it always makes things confusing to discuss. I don't think DA:O or DA2 had particularly difficult mechanics to work with(felt about the same honestly). Gameplay is largely secondary to me(in a CRPG), but I'd really rather not go back to the 2nd edition and previous era. That stuff was a buttload of work.

Modifié par Vandicus, 27 septembre 2012 - 05:25 .

[AppealToReason]

hussey 92 wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

I've played the hell out of every CoD since 4 and at no point rock'n'rolling through DA2 did I ever think the 2 games were anything alike.

I was refering to Bioware saying they wanted COD's audiance. 

Doesn't everyone? The biggest most committed fanbase in gaming. Even if you can pull 3% from that and add it to your already established base you will have kicked ass.

A CoD game hardly ever leaves the system and trying to find some way for your game to do that is what every developer wants.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Vandicus wrote... 
Wandering into high level zones in a video game does not constitute a meaningful roleplaying "choice".

When such choices could result the character's death or premature ending, it's meaningful enough.

Vandicus wrote...

You seem to have a fascination with combining high levels of crunch with your roleplaying. That's fine and all, but that hardly means that heavy crunch is necessary to roleplay.

Neither does telling lies in the form of illusion of choices and railroading linear plot. 

Vandicus wrote...


Using a toolset to create a module type event is also no more than the illusion of choice. Modules are railroads.

And who create those railroads if not the player themselves? The thing is, you're not restrained by plot and be able to alter the story in anyway possible. Plus who said anything about module type? You can easily alter main data or simply overwrite them without creating extended module. or you could even create something new from scratch completely different than main campaign.

I do that all the time since I learn Morrowind's construction kit and Neverwinter Night's Aurora toolset. I dislike how Lady Aribeth's ending was handled in Neverwinter Nights. I changed that. I dislike Morrigan's physical appearance in DAO. I change her facial morph and even her clothes to make my own Morrigan. I like the OGB and the Ultimate Sacrifice plot, I stick to them and be inspired by them. See? There is no restriction? I played my own story and character the way I'd like. 

Vandicus wrote...

Online DMing features and stuff are cool and useful, but they aren't part of the CRPG itself. Nor are they part of the edition in use. At all. Online DMing can be done with any edition of any rpg system.

Why would I need Online DMing features and stuff when I can simply alter the story and character through toolset or write on my own story with my own video game's pen and paper? I'm not interested to be a dungeon master or DM tools and staff. I only interested in pretending to be someone else, a virtual hero, and journeying my own character's story without the game master constantly remind me I can't do this and that, while at the same time telling me nothing I play make any differences at all. 

Part of RPG is about influencing the story. It doesn't matter what kind of story it is. Without this ability, you may as well stop interacting with video games and watch movie or read novel instead. Most DMs know this - Which is why we come out with illusion of choices in the first place, just to hide limitation of game desion. It was never meant to be an ideal solution in the first place. That was 3 decades ago. We have better technology now. In this age and with current technology I do not believe in such mindset anymore. For me, if you can't allow the player to create their own character and story in the form of choices and consequences or multi-divergent plot, you may as well give them all required external tools to do so, on their own initiative. If you can't provide a mean to simulate infinite amount of complex choices, consequences and personality, then you may as well give the player their own designer tools or their own pen and paper or their own dice and ruleset. Why settle on old cheats with lies of illusionary choices?

Vandicus wrote...

Your insistence seems to be that the ruleset being used is the #1 thing in a computer roleplaying game. I find that view somewhat odd to say the least.

Nope. I insist on DM/developer to stop lying in the form of meaningles choices and dumb railroading linear plot.  Also I insist them to stop interfering with player's story and character and let the players roleplay the game on their own - properly.

Vandicus wrote...


Also, your assertion that there is some uncrossable divide between DMs and players laughable. I've been both. Most every DM I know is also a player in other campaigns.

My assertion? I used to own a server and host a text based RPG when I was merely a teenager. I used to be a net adminstrator, monitoring my DMs online. You're making false assumption again. Twice.  

Nevertheless, being both DM and player doesn't make your knowledge and experience in RPG the ultimate handbook for everyone. Everyone has the right to argue other people opinion regardless you're both DM and player or not.  

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 27 septembre 2012 - 08:05 .

[Xewaka]

Mr.House wrote...
And tbh, it's really not that hard to learn. There's plenty of guides, helpful people ect that if you really are having a problem just ask for help. There's nothing wrong asking for help.

This worked when gaming was a hobby, rather than mass media entertainment. Nowadays, for each potential customer that will do its research and learn how to play the game, there's two that will plug the disk in, and if they're not insta-experts in ten minutes after the tutorial ended, trade the game back. Or that's the perception the marketing types have of the current market targets, regardless of reality. There's a reason manuals used to be +100 pages while they're now little more than a pamphlet.

I miss my Warcraft 2 manual. Those Metzen illustrations were awesome.

[Icinix]

Xewaka wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
And tbh, it's really not that hard to learn. There's plenty of guides, helpful people ect that if you really are having a problem just ask for help. There's nothing wrong asking for help.

This worked when gaming was a hobby, rather than mass media entertainment. Nowadays, for each potential customer that will do its research and learn how to play the game, there's two that will plug the disk in, and if they're not insta-experts in ten minutes after the tutorial ended, trade the game back. Or that's the perception the marketing types have of the current market targets, regardless of reality. There's a reason manuals used to be +100 pages while they're now little more than a pamphlet.

I miss my Warcraft 2 manual. Those Metzen illustrations were awesome.

Star Wars Rebellion. It was a freaking novel.

Even command and conquer and the first Halo...just reading all the bits and pieces about the units and stuff was great.

Now - you're lucky if they do a manual.

[Sharn01]

You know, if Bio decides they want to make a full blown action RPG I will be ok with it, its the half assed half rpg half action/rpg that I didnt care for. I love RPG's but there will be other games that will fill that role, the important thing is that they get back to making great games, regardless of the type of game it is.

If bioware wants to be known for their stories, dialogue and romances while changing the types of games they make to be more action that is fine, so long as they keep the important things like player customization, choices and a good story I will be cool with it.

DA2's flaws that I am the most upset with are the ones involving the story, I could have lived with the combat if it wasn't for every fight being teleporting and parachuting waves of enemies. Every enemy death causing them to explode in fountains of blood wasn't very good either.

[PaulSX]

Terror_K wrote...

Anybody who thinks that current BioWare is going to deliver a proper RPG experience in this day and age isn't intelligent, that's for sure. Especially those who have been burned by Mass Effect as well. People who still support BioWare now and have been with them for any longer than 4 years are blind fools.

you know people are interested in DA3 mainly because it's Dragon Age and BioWare. if you believed that DA2 destroyed the lore of Dragon Age then that's just your opinion. To some people, DA2 is more Dragon Age than, say Awakening.

[PaulSX]

Gabey5 wrote...

I agree. The vast majority of players getting this game are familiar with dao and da2 as well as other rpg mechanics. Streamlining for casual players and hand holding levels just ruins games. Also please go by the assumption that we have played the previous games. This is the third instalment if they have not been paying attention it is their fault. I think it is fair to expect people to be able to handle classic rpg mechanics when purchasing an rpg, and if they can they can learn

classic RPG mechanics were too hardcore and I do not think those mechanics will suit a pop-culture title like Dragon Age. I think DAO and DA2's mechanics was fine. They are mostly like MMOs (say World of Warcraft) and people will like them.

[Wulfram]

Streamlining bad mechanics is a good thing to do. RPGs often accumulate complexity that really ends up adding little to the experience.

I've never understood why game designers think it's worthwhile to have the player fiddle around with little 3% to critical hit chance or 2% to critical hit damage or things like that.  Picking up a talent that makes your next 5 attacks all critical hit, or a talent that makes your critical hits do spectacular damage, now that can be fun. But messing around with little percentages is not worthwhile.

And messing around with little percentages is what the current DA2 attributes system is currently, so I wouldn't really shed many tears if that was basically scrapped.

Though I'd like complexity added in other places. Like maybe turning the attributes into something like passive talent trees, with each point spent having a noticable impact on the character.

Modifié par Wulfram, 27 septembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[Lithuasil]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Nope. I insist on DM/developer to stop lying in the form of meaningles choices and dumb railroading linear plot.  Also I insist them to stop interfering with player's story and character and let the players roleplay the game on their own - properly.

Now while I'm all for the inclusion of construction kits/modding tools - what you describe here, is NOT roleplaying. It's the equivalent of a kid on the playground, playing make-belief all by themselves, because if you involve other people, they might do or say something you don't like.

Roleplaying means getting into the skin of another person - and as you might now from personal experience, being a person does not actually grant you absolute control over everything that happens in your life. Events beyond your control are a part of life, and subsequently a part of roleplaying someone elses life. If you had such control, you wouldn't be roleplaying, just making up a story as you see fit.

I'll grant you this though - more often then not, the players freedom is restricted beyond what can reasonably be expected to be outside their control. So while I can totally buy "we used our last money to get to kirkwall, we can't just go somewhere else" - I do get annoyed if a game, without explanation, denies me the perfectly reasonable choice of "anyone I knew in ferelden is dead, the **** that blackmailed me into joining his band of idiots is dead, screw this noise, I'm not staying here to fight the blight".

But that's not an issue of stories being too linear, it's an issue of writers giving the player character way too much potential freedom, in an attempt to cater to the crowd that just wants wish-fulfillment.

[LinksOcarina]

Terror_K wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

No, I appreciate such sentiments a lot actually. Thank you. It's always good to know there's still some intelligence in this universe whenever possible.

So because people enjoyed DA2, and even admitted their flaws, and also still loved DAO and are looking forward to DA3:I or at least watching and having an open mind to give it a chance, they are not intelligent? Really?

Anybody who thinks that current BioWare is going to deliver a proper RPG experience in this day and age isn't intelligent, that's for sure. Especially those who have been burned by Mass Effect as well. People who still support BioWare now and have been with them for any longer than 4 years are blind fools.

Wow...ok, I normally don't say this, but you can **** right off. 

 I am sick of hearing hyperbolic, general statements made by a person who thinks everything they say is always right. You don't listen to reason, you insult people who disagree with you, and you think what you say is a universal truth on some clandestine mission to bring back what the proper way is, like a zealous prophet coming from the desert.

You are not that intelligent though. Let's get that stright right now. Especially after that line which insults a lot of people who actually do care about Dragon Age II, and people who don't. You know why? Because in the end, what you want is not an objective thing. What you want is so subjective, so adheranced to a specific design, that anything against it has to be garbage and you have to badmouth the creators for a betrayal that never came for deviating from it, be it slightly or incredibly.

So to mask an opinion as a fact, and then to trash people for going against your opinion, makes not intelligent at all, but a person who really needs to get a life. I pity you so much because of this, but as I said, **** right off still, this is ridiculous now and pathetic on your end. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 27 septembre 2012 - 03:06 .

[EricHVela]

Oy. JE's explanation of the COD quote still comes across to me as appealing to new people that were not fans. The only extra info I got from the explanation is that they're trying to keep the current fans by holding onto the thing that COD shared with Dragon Age while finding ways to entice COD fans. The explanation still lends itself to changing things to attract COD fans who have largely liked COD for many other things than just the thing that COD shares with DA while it seems the former DA fans liked things that DA didn't share with COD.

I'm still going to tell myself that we won't know Orlais until we experience it first-hand. I refuse to let quotes such as those and their attempts at explanations sway me.

I have resigned myself to accept that DA3:I is not DA:O2 but closer to DA2.5 and that they're not going to try to make DA:O2 but also that such is not necessarily going to be a bad thing as long as I keep that in mind.

I want a DA:O sequel. I really do, but DA3:I is not going to be that. DA3:I is DA2's sequel. That's the Dragon Age IP as it is now.

We accept it, or we don't. If we don't, we're not going to enjoy the next Dragon Age game. If we realize that DA now is not DA:O, we might be able to enjoy DA3:I on its own merits as it's own game with its own story that started with the second Dragon Age and not with DA:O.

[rolson00]

John Epler wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

I can't say I'm an expert on old school rpg's (cause i'm not), but I would like something more challenging then DA2 (much more challenging). I doubt that would happen though cause bioware doesn't want to lose the COD fans.

Did you consider DA:A or DA:O challenging on nightmare? Have you beaten DA2 on nightmare? I found DA:A and DA:O ludicrously easy because of how unbalanced the gear and classes were. I mean there were a lot of posts around about how hard the Harvester was on nightmare, but anything half-way optimized imported from Awakening makes it a cakewalk. DA2 it wasn't so easy to optimized god-characters. All my chars pick up their 100% dodge and 100% magic resistance gear as soon as possible in Awakening, and I think last time I checked the Origins pieces add up to about 60% dodge with 100% magic resistance.

Not mention you cant guzzle health&mana potions in 2 like Origins

While DA2 wasn't exactly a difficult game, the implication that it was somehow easier than Origins/Awakening is silly. The move to the "CoD-like" DA2 was clearly accompanied by a difficulty increase, not decrease.

I've played the hell out of every CoD since 4 and at no point rock'n'rolling through DA2 did I ever think the 2 games were anything alike.

I was refering to Bioware saying they wanted COD's audiance. 

Ah, the infamous 'COD' quote. Let's clear up what was actually said.

What was said was along the lines of 'there are a lot of RPG elements in COD, and a lot of the people who only ever really play COD and a couple of other games might enjoy our games - we can use those commonalities to draw them in'. What folks heard, of course, was 'we don't care about RPG gamers, we just want people who play COD because there are more of them' which, of course, isn't true in the slightest.

And it's not an unfair sentiment at all, really - one of the biggest things that pulls people through COD multiplayer is the carrot of levelling up. Prestige was one of the most cynically brilliant ideas I've ever seen in regards to keeping people engaged with your product and only your product.

Let's put the idea to rest, however, that what we were saying was anything other than 'people who don't think they like RPGs might be surprised and find that they actually like them. A lot of people play COD, which has some light RPG mechanics, and we can use that commonality in such a way as to entice them to try our games.'

i agree with what u said but also so does choosing the origins of your charectar too

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

John Epler wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

I can't say I'm an expert on old school rpg's (cause i'm not), but I would like something more challenging then DA2 (much more challenging). I doubt that would happen though cause bioware doesn't want to lose the COD fans.

Did you consider DA:A or DA:O challenging on nightmare? Have you beaten DA2 on nightmare? I found DA:A and DA:O ludicrously easy because of how unbalanced the gear and classes were. I mean there were a lot of posts around about how hard the Harvester was on nightmare, but anything half-way optimized imported from Awakening makes it a cakewalk. DA2 it wasn't so easy to optimized god-characters. All my chars pick up their 100% dodge and 100% magic resistance gear as soon as possible in Awakening, and I think last time I checked the Origins pieces add up to about 60% dodge with 100% magic resistance.

Not mention you cant guzzle health&mana potions in 2 like Origins

While DA2 wasn't exactly a difficult game, the implication that it was somehow easier than Origins/Awakening is silly. The move to the "CoD-like" DA2 was clearly accompanied by a difficulty increase, not decrease.

I've played the hell out of every CoD since 4 and at no point rock'n'rolling through DA2 did I ever think the 2 games were anything alike.

I was refering to Bioware saying they wanted COD's audiance. 

Ah, the infamous 'COD' quote. Let's clear up what was actually said.

What was said was along the lines of 'there are a lot of RPG elements in COD, and a lot of the people who only ever really play COD and a couple of other games might enjoy our games - we can use those commonalities to draw them in'. What folks heard, of course, was 'we don't care about RPG gamers, we just want people who play COD because there are more of them' which, of course, isn't true in the slightest.

And it's not an unfair sentiment at all, really - one of the biggest things that pulls people through COD multiplayer is the carrot of levelling up. Prestige was one of the most cynically brilliant ideas I've ever seen in regards to keeping people engaged with your product and only your product.

Let's put the idea to rest, however, that what we were saying was anything other than 'people who don't think they like RPGs might be surprised and find that they actually like them. A lot of people play COD, which has some light RPG mechanics, and we can use that commonality in such a way as to entice them to try our games.'

So how exactly was it that the Dragon Age team were going to try to entice COD players to jump on the RPG bandwagon? On what level was the the Dragon Age team trying to appeal to the COD player? Were you just going to say "HAI GUYS, we heard you like leveling up and our game has leveling up too!" as if the sole reason the COD player plays Call of Duty is to level up?

[Vandicus]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Vandicus wrote... 
Wandering into high level zones in a video game does not constitute a meaningful roleplaying "choice".

When such choices could result the character's death or premature ending, it's meaningful enough.

Vandicus wrote...

You seem to have a fascination with combining high levels of crunch with your roleplaying. That's fine and all, but that hardly means that heavy crunch is necessary to roleplay.

Neither does telling lies in the form of illusion of choices and railroading linear plot. 

Vandicus wrote...


Using a toolset to create a module type event is also no more than the illusion of choice. Modules are railroads.

And who create those railroads if not the player themselves? The thing is, you're not restrained by plot and be able to alter the story in anyway possible. Plus who said anything about module type? You can easily alter main data or simply overwrite them without creating extended module. or you could even create something new from scratch completely different than main campaign.

I do that all the time since I learn Morrowind's construction kit and Neverwinter Night's Aurora toolset. I dislike how Lady Aribeth's ending was handled in Neverwinter Nights. I changed that. I dislike Morrigan's physical appearance in DAO. I change her facial morph and even her clothes to make my own Morrigan. I like the OGB and the Ultimate Sacrifice plot, I stick to them and be inspired by them. See? There is no restriction? I played my own story and character the way I'd like. 

Vandicus wrote...

Online DMing features and stuff are cool and useful, but they aren't part of the CRPG itself. Nor are they part of the edition in use. At all. Online DMing can be done with any edition of any rpg system.

Why would I need Online DMing features and stuff when I can simply alter the story and character through toolset or write on my own story with my own video game's pen and paper? I'm not interested to be a dungeon master or DM tools and staff. I only interested in pretending to be someone else, a virtual hero, and journeying my own character's story without the game master constantly remind me I can't do this and that, while at the same time telling me nothing I play make any differences at all. 

Part of RPG is about influencing the story. It doesn't matter what kind of story it is. Without this ability, you may as well stop interacting with video games and watch movie or read novel instead. Most DMs know this - Which is why we come out with illusion of choices in the first place, just to hide limitation of game desion. It was never meant to be an ideal solution in the first place. That was 3 decades ago. We have better technology now. In this age and with current technology I do not believe in such mindset anymore. For me, if you can't allow the player to create their own character and story in the form of choices and consequences or multi-divergent plot, you may as well give them all required external tools to do so, on their own initiative. If you can't provide a mean to simulate infinite amount of complex choices, consequences and personality, then you may as well give the player their own designer tools or their own pen and paper or their own dice and ruleset. Why settle on old cheats with lies of illusionary choices?

Vandicus wrote...

Your insistence seems to be that the ruleset being used is the #1 thing in a computer roleplaying game. I find that view somewhat odd to say the least.

Nope. I insist on DM/developer to stop lying in the form of meaningles choices and dumb railroading linear plot.  Also I insist them to stop interfering with player's story and character and let the players roleplay the game on their own - properly.

Vandicus wrote...


Also, your assertion that there is some uncrossable divide between DMs and players laughable. I've been both. Most every DM I know is also a player in other campaigns.

My assertion? I used to own a server and host a text based RPG when I was merely a teenager. I used to be a net adminstrator, monitoring my DMs online. You're making false assumption again. Twice.  

Nevertheless, being both DM and player doesn't make your knowledge and experience in RPG the ultimate handbook for everyone. Everyone has the right to argue other people opinion regardless you're both DM and player or not.  

So you want a sandbox crpg, fine, go and play one. This company's selling point is illusion of choice, sorry if you weren't aware of that.

To create a simulationist level campaign without a human on the other end is impossible now, and it will probably be impossible for the forseeable future.

I'm making a false assumption how? You made a clear statement that DMs frequently assume that removing major aspects of the game, like magic item creation, don't effect roleplaying. As most DMs are players, I find it difficult to believe we wouldn't notice.

[Dragoonlordz]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

So how exactly was it that the Dragon Age team were going to try to entice COD players to jump on the RPG bandwagon? On what level was the the Dragon Age team trying to appeal to the COD player? Were you just going to say "HAI GUYS, we heard you like leveling up and our game has leveling up too!" as if the sole reason the COD player plays Call of Duty is to level up?

I'll put an example to simplify it for you.

My friend who plays Halo, CoD, MW and BF more than any other game is the same fan of those who loves DA:O and ME series plus other RPGs. It was that friend that bought me Mass Effect in order to show how good it was and get my to play it. That friend who plays those FPS online more than an other genre is also a Bioware fan and also an RPG fan and those sort are the kind that JE means. She is a fan of Biowares games more than most of the anti-CoD crowd on this forum.

A huge amount of Bioware's fanbase also love FPS games and games like CoD. Even I liked the old CoD series, MoH, CS:S and FPS/RPG hybrid games like System Shock, Deus Ex and more yet here I am a fan of Bioware's games too, a fan of CDPR games, Bethesda's, Obsidian's (I am also helping kickstart their PE game) plus many more. I own multiple copies of most of Bioware's games, on many different systems and have been a member here and also a fan of Bioware's games longer than a vast amount of the CoD bashing types on here.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[Fiddzz]

This thread has derailed and is not a positive and friendly discussion on the upcoming Dragon Age III Inquisition game.

Lockdown