22 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Let us give this another shot, shall we?

Obviously this something many people are pessimistic about, because of Gaider's earlier (bizarre) insistence about no atheists existing on Thedas. However, we did get him to concede that they'd consider the option of expressing doubt, which is a decent step closer to allowing it to be roleplayed, and I see no reason why we should let supporting the option die out.

Yes, he retconned away the possibility for the human noble PC to say they didn't believe in the Maker in DAO. However, Morrigan certainly hasn't been retconned out, and we know that plenty of humans have left Andrastianism for the Qun, an atheistic philosophy. Aveline seems to be teetering on the edge of it, which may be all that's necessary. Aldenon the Wise, he of the second mage item pack DLC, didn't believe in the Maker at all. And being exposed to numerous different beliefs, such as the Qun and Creators, could easily lead one to, if they seemed as convincing as Andrastianism did at first, decide to maintain a certain amount of skepticism about all, so there are quite a few possibilities here, and they wouldn't be at all hard to implement.

Also, this:

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, there was indeed the occasional dialogue option to express it--something you guys obviously remember better than we do (writing something over six years will definitely do that, let me tell you). I don't know if we would consider that "supported" as I defined above, but you're correct that it definitely pops up.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 septembre 2012 - 03:31 .

[RedWulfi]

Second thread? Ive seen tonnes... and they all got locked.

[Maclimes]

To me, the ultimate question is this: Is it relevant?

If an NPC asks you, "What god or gods do you follow?", then yes, we should have the option to say, "None". And the PC should not have auto-dialogue that fills in details that would be better left to the player (religion simply being one of many elements there).

But, if none of those things occur, I see no reason to make it a point to shoehorn in a conversation just so you can say, "I'm atheist" (or whatever religion/lack-there-of you choose for your PC). If it never comes up in the game, it's a headcanon issue and you don't need the game to spell it out for you.

[Xilizhra]

Maclimes wrote...

To me, the ultimate question is this: Is it relevant?

If an NPC asks you, "What god or gods do you follow?", then yes, we should have the option to say, "None". And the PC should not have auto-dialogue that fills in details that would be better left to the player (religion simply being one of many elements there).

But, if none of those things occur, I see no reason to make it a point to shoehorn in a conversation just so you can say, "I'm atheist" (or whatever religion/lack-there-of you choose for your PC). If it never comes up in the game, it's a headcanon issue and you don't need the game to spell it out for you.

If nothing else, we should avoid having religious autodialogue that determines our beliefs without our own input. And I suspect it's very likely to come up in a game called Inquisition, about a religious act of attempted genocide.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 septembre 2012 - 03:17 .

[hexaligned]

Agree with McyLimes. There is always a "I don't give a **** about you or anything you advocate" option in Bioware games. At least as far as I have noticed. If you want to take that for atheism when talking to zealots, then go ahead. It shouldn't be something that is directly added just for the sake of adding it however.

Modifié par relhart, 25 septembre 2012 - 03:26 .

[Maclimes]

Xilizhra wrote...
If nothing else, we should avoid having religious autodialogue that determines our beliefs without our own input. And I suspect it's very likely to come up in a game called Inquisition, about a religious act of attempted genocide.

That is a valid point. Of course, there's another aspect to keep in mind, here: The story itself.

If the story dictates that the main character be a priest or a follower of Andraste, or whatever, then that's what you are. It would be like complaining about the fact that you can't choose to side with the Archdemon. Your character MUST be anti-darkspawn, or the entire story makes no sense.

In a similar vein, if the story is written such that it only makes sense for an Andrastian PC, then that is what you are. Personally, I have no problem with that. However, given the reaction of fans, I would advise Bioware to rethink any such story.

[Sylvanpyxie]

To me, the ultimate question is this: Is it relevant?

When a Player Character is spouting religious clap-trap as auto dialogue - Yes, I believe it's relevant.

I'm not looking for actively atheist dialogue, I just don't want to be shoe-horned into believing in a Deity that my character may not actually believe in.

[Maclimes]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

To me, the ultimate question is this: Is it relevant?

When a Player Character is spouting religious clap-trap as auto dialogue - Yes, I believe it's relevant.

I'm not looking for actively atheist dialogue, I just don't want to be shoe-horned into believing in a Deity that my character may not actually believe in.

Not exactly what I meant. I totally agree about the auto dialogue.

I meant something like this: If the story, PC, or NPCs never mention your religion at all, do you insist that they address it just so that you can say "No"? 

[Lithuasil]

No. In a world that is so heavily influenced by a religion, and so full of magical stuff that lends credibility to religious stories, you should not be allowed to bring in your western, supposedly intellectual atheism, right of the bat.
Being able to roleplay a crisis of faith, after something significant or traumatic happened to justify it - sure. Being able to go around telling every religious person how stupid they are? No, just no.

[Xilizhra]

If the story dictates that the main character be a priest or a follower of Andraste, or whatever, then that's what you are. It would be like complaining about the fact that you can't choose to side with the Archdemon. Your character MUST be anti-darkspawn, or the entire story makes no sense.

In a similar vein, if the story is written such that it only makes sense for an Andrastian PC, then that is what you are. Personally, I have no problem with that. However, given the reaction of fans, I would advise Bioware to rethink any such story.

If that's the case, then the story should be changed, because it contains a grievously unnecessary component.

I meant something like this: If the story, PC, or NPCs never mention your religion at all, do you insist that they address it just so that you can say "No"?

I would think it incredibly odd if they didn't address it, in a game with this sort of content.

No. In a world that is so heavily influenced by a religion, and so full
of magical stuff that lends credibility to religious stories, you should
not be allowed to bring in your western, supposedly intellectual
atheism, right of the bat.
Being able to roleplay a crisis of faith,
after something significant or traumatic happened to justify it - sure.
Being able to go around telling every religious person how stupid they
are? No, just no.

I suspect that you, like Gaider, do not understand the definition of "atheism." All it requires is not having an active belief in a god. And I'm willing to have a different religion assuming it isn't Andrastian or the Qun.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 septembre 2012 - 03:27 .

[Darth Death]

Gaider already addressed this issue in full in other threads. No point in a second go.

[Plaintiff]

Speaking as an atheist, I really don't care.

[Xilizhra]

Darth Death wrote...

Gaider already addressed this issue in full in other threads. No point in a second go.

I consider the issue insufficiently addressed. Whether or not it requires him to address it personally isn't the point, but I'll be happy to have him if he does.

[Sylvanpyxie]

If the story, PC, or NPCs never mention your religion at all, do you insist that they address it just so that you can say "No"?

Like I said, I'm not looking for actively atheist dialogue, but if religion comes up I should have the option to deny any semblance of faith.

I shouldn't automatically be shoe-horned into accepting the Maker, the Creators or the Fluffy Bunny that lives on Mars. I should have the option to role-play my Character as I wish, within the limitations of the story.

If we end up being forced to work for a Religious Faction in the Inquisition, and someone mentions "my faith", I should have the option to deny my belief in a higher power and claim I'm doing it for other reasons - Selfish or otherwise.

Heck, I would be content - If the topic comes up - to have the option to claim I still believe in the Maker/Creators/Qun/Fluffy Bunny from Mars, but I refuse to worship them as deities.

It isn't too much to ask to have the option, if the topic of conversation does come up. There's no need for Devs to go out of there way to put it in there, but like I said, if the topic comes up, I want the choice.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 25 septembre 2012 - 03:31 .

[Xilizhra]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

If the story, PC, or NPCs never mention your religion at all, do you insist that they address it just so that you can say "No"?

Like I said, I'm not looking for actively atheist dialogue, but if religion comes up I should have the option to deny any semblance of faith.

I shouldn't automatically be shoe-horned into accepting the Maker, the Creators or the Fluffy Bunny that lives on Mars. I should have the option to role-play my Character as I wish, within the limitations of the story.

If we end up being forced to work for a Religious Faction in the Inquisition, and someone mentions "my faith", I should have the option to deny my belief in a higher power and claim I'm doing it for other reasons - Selfish or otherwise.

Heck, I would be content - If the topic comes up - to have the option to claim I still believe in the Maker/Creators/Qun/Fluffy Bunny from Mars, but I refuse to worship them as deities.

It isn't too much to ask to have the option, if the topic of conversation does come up. There's no need for Devs to go out of there way to put it in there, but like I said, if the topic comes up, I want the choice.

I shall agree with this. Also, I edited the topic.

[Maclimes]

Actually, I kind of had this idea bouncing around in my head. The player STARTS the game as a loyal Andrastian, serving the Chantry and doing all that is required of her. But during the prologue, something in the mage/templar war creates a crisis of faith for the character. It is here that the player then decides their place in the war, their place in the world, and their fath.

Perhaps your character's faith is shaken, eyes are opened, and she denounces belief in any religion. Perhaps she works through her problems, and resolves her crisis of faith, becoming an even more loyal servant of Andraste. Perhaps she submits to the Qun, or takes up dwarven ancestor worship, or whatever pantheon the elves follow.

I like this idea because it lets us start off as an "Inquisitor" or whatever, but in the end, the choice of religion is ultimately in the hands of the player.

It also has the advantage of providing another arc for character growth, companion dialogue, and side quests.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I'm with what David suggested in the original thread. I prefer to have my characters to be able to express some doubt about a higher power. I certainly don't need to be on some sort of secular crusade but I liked a few moments in DA:O and DA2 that let me express some doubt on the matter. It's purely a personal preference. The first few years of my life I was begrudgingly brought up in a social structure with a fairly heavy emphasis on religion,even if I didn't care for it I had to participate. So if a character in game asks my PC to participate in a function (say declining prayer in the Cousland Origin or in the Ostagar Camp before the battle), I do appreciate an option to say no thank you, not in a combative way mind you. Though a snide remark if the NPC is being a bit overzealous would be appreciated as well, them calling me a heathen or barbarian afterwards tends to give me a good chuckle.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, I kind of had this idea bouncing around in my head. The player STARTS the game as a loyal Andrastian

I'm still annoyed. Also, the "crisis of faith" thing as a means for inducing atheism is a bit overdone; it might make more sense in this culture, but I don't really want my beliefs to be dictated by the game at all. It's rather like how in the HN origin, you're forced to be racist.

[TheJediSaint]

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Gaider already addressed this issue in full in other threads. No point in a second go.

I consider the issue insufficiently addressed. Whether or not it requires him to address it personally isn't the point, but I'll be happy to have him if he does.

No, the point is to trumpet an agenda.

[Maclimes]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, I kind of had this idea bouncing around in my head. The player STARTS the game as a loyal Andrastian

I'm still annoyed. Also, the "crisis of faith" thing as a means for inducing atheism is a bit overdone; it might make more sense in this culture, but I don't really want my beliefs to be dictated by the game at all. It's rather like how in the HN origin, you're forced to be racist.

Would the forced racism be as bad if you had the option to redeem yourself, deny your racist upbringing, and have that redemption recognized by the game? Personally, I like taking a "flawed" character and "fixing" them. To me, that's more rewarding than just starting off perfect.

[Nomen Mendax]

Xilizhra wrote...
I suspect that you, like Gaider, do not understand the definition of "atheism." All it requires is not having an active belief in a god. And I'm willing to have a different religion assuming it isn't Andrastian or the Qun.

My understanding its that atheism is generally defined as the belief that no deities exist.  You may disagree with this definition, but if you do I think you should at least understand that its a definition that is accepted by millions of people, not just DG and a couple of BSN members.

[Darth Death]

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Gaider already addressed this issue in full in other threads. No point in a second go.

I consider the issue insufficiently addressed. Whether or not it requires him to address it personally isn't the point, but I'll be happy to have him if he does.

Well, he did write the story & as the author, if he says atheism doesn't exist within DA then it doesn't exist within DA. You may not like it, but it doesn't change the fact the matter is still so. 

[David Gaider]

Darth Death wrote...

Gaider already addressed this issue in full in other threads. No point in a second go.

Especially when someone starts it off by cherry-picking part of my response.

No, sorry-- this kind of thread is just a lightning rod for people to vent their real-life religious issues. Until there's something specific for you to comment upon, it's just speculative and an invitation to a flame war. Shutting it down.