95 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Lithuasil wrote...

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...
It's not that you will be FORCED into doing something... 

No. That's PRECISELY what the qun is. I suppose that'd make for a very healthy tangent in DA3 though - Allow the PC to submit to the qun, whereupon they're tasked with cleaning the floors in the toilets, because some priest stood up with the wrong foot that morning.

That's not how it works, and this just shows that you're arguing against an imaginary fear inside your head and not what qunari society actually is--at least insofar as the writers have been willing to indulge us with glimpses and snippets of knowledge.

[Iron Star]

I'm with Lithuasil on this one, and have always been, ever since I learnt what the qun is. I understand that some people might like the idea, since the goal of the qunari is to create balance and perfection, but the cost at which the qun gives it is just too high. You have no freedom, no rights, you're not allowed to believe or think other than what the qun teaches you. You are from birth placed in a niche in society from which you'll never leave, based on your sex, physical and mental attributes. If you are born a mage you'll be treated as a beast on a leash, killed the very second your peers believe you've become more of a threat than a boon to the qun. Sure, the qunari do have gunpowder, but is that better than human rights?

The perfection the qun promises is a lie, the result that comes with it is stagnation, a never changing society inhabited by mindless slaves living by a code that forces them to never doubt how small and worthless their existences are compared to the greater whole. How perfect their order is and how they must condemn and pity those who haven't grasped at their greatness and impunity.

Kossith are the coolest race in the DA universe, and if I can I will play a female kossith in DA III. But please let me become tal vasoth, because the qun is evil.

Modifié par Get fired up, 25 septembre 2012 - 08:22 .

[Lithuasil]

marshalleck wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...
It's not that you will be FORCED into doing something... 

No. That's PRECISELY what the qun is. I suppose that'd make for a very healthy tangent in DA3 though - Allow the PC to submit to the qun, whereupon they're tasked with cleaning the floors in the toilets, because some priest stood up with the wrong foot that morning.

That's not how it works, and this just shows that you're arguing against an imaginary fear inside your head and not what qunari society actually is--at least insofar as the writers have been willing to indulge us with glimpses and snippets of knowledge.

What we've been told, is that there's a caste of priests delusional enough to believe such a decision was possible (and insane enough to believe themselves unfailable). And what we've seen is that there are a few cowards so desperate for a little certainty, and so afraid of life's realities, that they're willing to swallow that bullshít hook, line and sinker.

[Wulfram]

marshalleck wrote...

Well said Hawkeyed. Can't help but notice so many of the arguments against the principles of the Qun are essentially rooted in selfish egotism--as are so many of the ills plaguing the civilizations that indulge the same. Everything wrong with Kirkwall is a prime example.

The Qunari are profoundly selfish.  The world must be arranged to suit their whims, and the happiness, individuality or life of everyone else is irrelevant before this.

[marshalleck]

Lithuasil wrote...

What we've been told, is that there's a caste of priests delusional enough to believe such a decision was possible (and insane enough to believe themselves unfailable). And what we've seen is that there are a few cowards so desperate for a little certainty, and so afraid of life's realities, that they're willing to swallow that bullshít hook, line and sinker.

 Maybe you should not allow your fear of mid 20th century fascists to cloud your judgment when composing posts.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 septembre 2012 - 08:26 .

[Vandicus]

marshalleck wrote...

 That's not how it works, and this just shows that you're arguing against an imaginary fear inside your head and not what qunari society actually is--at least insofar as the writers have been willing to indulge us with glimpses and snippets of knowledge.

What do you view Qunari society as?

From what we've been given in the lore, I'm lead to believe they utilize a strict caste system and have rules explaining both their purpose and aspects of every day life(from sex to cooking). They also have a strong desire to force everyone else to follow the Qun. While I understand why some people would be attracted to a society in which everything they were supposed to do was clearly outlined and they had a defined purpose in life handed down to them from their superiors, its not in the least bit appealing to me. As the Qunari are intent in using force to extend their beloved Qun to all corners of Thedas, I'd be more than happy to wipe them out, pre-emptively or otherwise.

The only weird thing I see about the Qun though is its phenomenonal success rate when it comes to conversion. Their reeducation camps suggest either formiddable psychological techniques or some sort've mind control.

[marshalleck]

Vandicus wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

 That's not how it works, and this just shows that you're arguing against an imaginary fear inside your head and not what qunari society actually is--at least insofar as the writers have been willing to indulge us with glimpses and snippets of knowledge.

What do you view Qunari society as?

From what we've been given in the lore, I'm lead to believe they utilize a strict caste system and have rules explaining both their purpose and aspects of every day life(from sex to cooking). They also have a strong desire to force everyone else to follow the Qun. While I understand why some people would be attracted to a society in which everything they were supposed to do was clearly outlined and they had a defined purpose in life handed down to them from their superiors, its not in the least bit appealing to me. As the Qunari are intent in using force to extend their beloved Qun to all corners of Thedas, I'd be more than happy to wipe them out, pre-emptively or otherwise.

The only weird thing I see about the Qun though is its phenomenonal success rate when it comes to conversion. Their reeducation camps suggest either formiddable psychological techniques or some sort've mind control.

Or maybe it actually works. I guess we won't know unless and until the writers decide to drop us right into the middle of qunari culture.

As far as what I see Qunari society as, it's just as you described. A strict, merit oriented caste system that seeks to strengthen an entire community by adapting each individual's productivity to their natural aptitudes. If the society in question experiences high productivity and engagement from each individual, nobody is going hungry, the infrm are being cared for, and there is minimal attrition by individuals whom for whatever reason decide to leave, then I have to wonder if in fact such a model is not objectively better than those of its rivals. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 septembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[Vandicus]

marshalleck wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

 That's not how it works, and this just shows that you're arguing against an imaginary fear inside your head and not what qunari society actually is--at least insofar as the writers have been willing to indulge us with glimpses and snippets of knowledge.

What do you view Qunari society as?

From what we've been given in the lore, I'm lead to believe they utilize a strict caste system and have rules explaining both their purpose and aspects of every day life(from sex to cooking). They also have a strong desire to force everyone else to follow the Qun. While I understand why some people would be attracted to a society in which everything they were supposed to do was clearly outlined and they had a defined purpose in life handed down to them from their superiors, its not in the least bit appealing to me. As the Qunari are intent in using force to extend their beloved Qun to all corners of Thedas, I'd be more than happy to wipe them out, pre-emptively or otherwise.

The only weird thing I see about the Qun though is its phenomenonal success rate when it comes to conversion. Their reeducation camps suggest either formiddable psychological techniques or some sort've mind control.

Or maybe it actually works. I guess we won't know unless and until the writers decide to drop us right into the middle of qunari culture.

They have reeducation camps and drug resistors with qamek to effectively lobotimize them(which is why I suspect another form of less successfull mind control). Not sure what your point is when it comes to "It actually works". They live as slaves, voluntary or otherwise, but their society is stable. Is it worth it? Not to me.

[Lithuasil]

Vandicus wrote...

The only weird thing I see about the Qun though is its phenomenonal success rate when it comes to conversion. Their reeducation camps suggest either formiddable psychological techniques or some sort've mind control.

Two parts mind-control to three parts bad writing.
We're outright told they have magi-chemical ways of breaking/brainwashing people, and don't hesitate for half a second to use them. 
However, there's also someone on the dev-team who evidently did not think the qunari-concept through, hence why we get all those stories about how advanced and competent they are, in crass dissonance to both what could reasonably be expected from a stagnating society, and what we see of them in the game. (Backstabbing savages throwing javelins and lots of fans desperately trying to explain all that away).

[Vandicus]

Lithuasil wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

The only weird thing I see about the Qun though is its phenomenonal success rate when it comes to conversion. Their reeducation camps suggest either formiddable psychological techniques or some sort've mind control.

Two parts mind-control to three parts bad writing.
We're outright told they have magi-chemical ways of breaking/brainwashing people, and don't hesitate for half a second to use them. 
However, there's also someone on the dev-team who evidently did not think the qunari-concept through, hence why we get all those stories about how advanced and competent they are, in crass dissonance to both what could reasonably be expected from a stagnating society, and what we see of them in the game. (Backstabbing savages throwing javelins and lots of fans desperately trying to explain all that away).

Well technologically advanced communists(yeah the Qunari economic system is actually communism, so the comparison is valid) was a commonly employed writing technique in the 80s.

[Wulfram]

There's no real evidence that the Qunari have advanced since they became Qunari. They had cannon when they arrived, after all.

[Vandicus]

Wulfram wrote...

There's no real evidence that the Qunari have advanced since they became Qunari. They had cannon when they arrived, after all.

The entire world may actually be suffering from lack of technological advancement by virtue of being a written setting. Forgotten Realms spans literally hundreds of years from D&D1-D&D4, but technologically remains roughly the same. Unless a fantasy setting wants to deal with steampunkish concepts, they usually stagnate technology wise. Could go either way with DA though.

[marshalleck]

Lithuasil wrote...
 (Backstabbing savages throwing javelins and lots of fans desperately trying to explain all that away).

Not sure what this is about. Hawke kills way more people in DA2 than the Arishok did, so I don't think any defense of the qunari is needed.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 septembre 2012 - 08:42 .

[Lithuasil]

Vandicus wrote...


The entire world may actually be suffering from lack of technological advancement by virtue of being a written setting. Forgotten Realms spans literally hundreds of years from D&D1-D&D4, but technologically remains roughly the same. Unless a fantasy setting wants to deal with steampunkish concepts, they usually stagnate technology wise. Could go either way with DA though.

There's settings where technological stagnation makes sense, not that DA is one of them. My personal theory is that the "best and brightest" who would usually invent all those technological advances all get force-conscripted by the grey wardens and die during their joining.

[Gallimatia]

Lithuasil wrote...

What we've been told, is that there's a caste of priests delusional enough to believe such a decision was possible (and insane enough to believe themselves unfailable). And what we've seen is that there are a few cowards so desperate for a little certainty, and so afraid of life's realities, that they're willing to swallow that bullshít hook, line and sinker.

Often times the people that go sailing towards the edge of the world and settle new continents are a bit out there. I'm guessing the qunari are outcasts that were driven to leave their home continent.

It is worth noting that the qunari have not made any notable advances in technology since they began to conquer despite having been at it for centuries. They came with cannons, superior ships and unknown destructive technology. That was three hundred years ago. We have no particular reason to belive qunari society is what brought these things about on that distant world we know nothing about. If it was it's surprising their development halted as soon as they came here. Perhaps the priests forgot how to assign scientists on the boatride over.

edit: and I see it's already been noted and addressed 

Modifié par Gallimatia, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:10 .

[Aulis Vaara]

I certainly wouldn't mind role-playing a female Kossith, or even having one in my party.

[Punahedan]

Regarding the PC of DA3 being brainwashed: Sarebaas straight-up tells Hawke her role wouldn't change much under the qun. They take into account your skill. Your upbringing. The people they brainwash are people who would be a danger to their society. WHICH ISABELA WAS FOR STEALING THEIR MOST IMPORTANT BOOK OF PHILOSOPHY. I love the girl, but that's what I call tempting fate.

What WE know of the qunari is not all of it. Again, we see their militant branch. Not even all of it. Mostly those who are more or less scouts for their people to see what lies on the other side of the map. For all we know, they advanced their medicines; we know they take care of their sick and disabled. Maybe they do have something... they're just not using it in the south. We barely know a thing about what's going on in Tevinter. That's where most of the fighting is, if there is any.

What we know is also through a Chantry filter, for the most part.

I want to see what their culture is like. NOT what they're like when they're at war; the qunari army is probably no better than the Chantry's Exalted Marches. I want to see the artisans and craftsmen and farmers Tallis mentions. Because it's very easy to call "savage" when your first encounter with a people is explosive powder and a well-guarded border.

Coincidentally, weren't elves considered hostile for closing off their borders before the Exalted Marches?

[Versus Omnibus]

I support more Qunari appearances, and a female Kossith companion/love interest, whose been raised outside the Qun to make it possible.

[Vandicus]

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

Regarding the PC of DA3 being brainwashed: Sarebaas straight-up tells Hawke her role wouldn't change much under the qun. They take into account your skill. Your upbringing. The people they brainwash are people who would be a danger to their society. WHICH ISABELA WAS FOR STEALING THEIR MOST IMPORTANT BOOK OF PHILOSOPHY. I love the girl, but that's what I call tempting fate.

What WE know of the qunari is not all of it. Again, we see their militant branch. Not even all of it. Mostly those who are more or less scouts for their people to see what lies on the other side of the map. For all we know, they advanced their medicines; we know they take care of their sick and disabled. Maybe they do have something... they're just not using it in the south. We barely know a thing about what's going on in Tevinter. That's where most of the fighting is, if there is any.

What we know is also through a Chantry filter, for the most part.

I want to see what their culture is like. NOT what they're like when they're at war; the qunari army is probably no better than the Chantry's Exalted Marches. I want to see the artisans and craftsmen and farmers Tallis mentions. Because it's very easy to call "savage" when your first encounter with a people is explosive powder and a well-guarded border.

Coincidentally, weren't elves considered hostile for closing off their borders before the Exalted Marches?

PC of DA3? Confused as to what that means. Also notice the use of the word "role" in that statement. Free people don't have roles. They change carreers and directions all the time throughout life. Sarebaas incorrectly views Hawke as a member of the warrior caste(perhaps a high ranking/skilled member) and assures Hawke that his role would stay the same. 

Agreed that our view of the Qunari is not complete, but even members of the Qunari openly advertise that their system grants you purpose and order through its highly rigid structure. The whole "attraction" of living in the Qun is that all your decisions are made for you. There is never any doubt, any uncertainty. We know the reeducation camps and the conversion methods exist. We know they see warfare as a valid method of expanding their social/religious structure.

I am interested in seeing more about their culture, but I would not hesitate to destroy them.

[Lithuasil]

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

snip

So what you're saying is, your belief that the qun might not be evil stems purely from the hope that what we've seen so far, with three very vocal characters trying to sway us, was all boogus?

[Punahedan]

Lithuasil wrote...

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

snip

So what you're saying is, your belief that the qun might not be evil stems purely from the hope that what we've seen so far, with three very vocal characters trying to sway us, was all boogus?

Which three vocal characters?

Vandicus wrote...

PC of DA3? Confused as to what that means. Also notice the use of the word "role" in that statement. Free people don't have roles. They change carreers and directions all the time throughout life. Sarebaas
incorrectly views Hawke as a member of the warrior caste(perhaps a high
ranking/skilled member) and assures Hawke that his role would stay the
same. 

Agreed that our view of the Qunari is not complete, but
even members of the Qunari openly advertise that their system grants you
purpose and order through its highly rigid structure. The whole
"attraction" of living in the Qun is that all your decisions are made
for you. There is never any doubt, any uncertainty. We know the reeducation camps and the conversion methods exist. We know they see warfare as a valid method of expanding their social/religious structure.

I am interested in seeing more about their culture, but I would not hesitate to destroy them.

Someone made a crack earlier about DA3 PC being forced to scrub floors before getting a game over if converting to the Qun.

We know that they have re-education camps, but they're used for criminals and people who are a danger.

VERY VERY VERY few people switch careers in this setting. Nobles are born nobles. Peasants tend to stay peasants. There's VERY little movement. And in modern times, being forced to switch from career to career and being constantly afraid of not being able to make bill payments? That's not quite the freedom we're making it out to be, here, it's very terrifying and a burden. That switching, that indecisiveness, that causes more people problems than someone studying you for the first twelve years of your life and helping you find a path that's contribution, rather than succumbing to starvation or laziness or being affected by a bad economy.

I'm not saying they're the best thing ever. They do some pretty wrong things. But painting them like the devil is extremely limited a viewpoint. I'm trying to point out that there are alternative ways to view the way people live lives, and that maybe everything we're crying out for right now (FREEDOM! INDIVIDUALITY! SELF-EXPRESSION!) can actually sometimes be detrimental, and that qunari culture is based on trying to nip it in the bud.

[unbentbuzzkill]

qunari are selfish and highly egotisticso please no more i can't take it anymore.

[marshalleck]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

qunari are selfish and highly egotistic

You think so? How?

[Lithuasil]

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

looong snip

Tallis, the Arishok and Sten all play the role of "Qunari-Advertisment". It's their actions and expressions that we base our judgement of the Qunari on. You base yours on the hope, that what we haven't seen of the qunari is a lot better.

Now, speaking as someone young and self-employed, with little support, and practically no safety-nets - yes. Freedom is scary. But shying away from it is still cowardice. All that scary stuff, doubting, struggling - it's called being human. And even the slaves of a tevinter magister have hopes and dreams.
A slave of the qun is supposed to let go of even those, along with everything else that makes him distinguishable from an organic robot. Trading your humanity in, for fake, make-belief certainty, that's a cowards choice, plain and simple.

Or to paraphrase: "Peace is a lie, there is only passion" 

[marshalleck]

Wow, that was cheesiest and most overly sentimental post I've read in a while.