95 réponses à ce sujet

[Punahedan]

A 'slave of the qun' doesn't let go of his dreams or suddenly become a drone... he works for the betterment of everyone. He puts his passion where it can benefit the greatest number of people. You're getting the most out of your life that you reasonably can. And rather than turning around fifty years down the road and saying, "****, that sucked!", you can turn around and say, "Wow. I helped my people."

Sten, the Arishok, and Tallis all talk about community and doing what is good for the many, not just what makes you feel nice. The Arishok acknowledges how so many people in Kirkwall drown themselves in their own greediness and self-centered ways. Tallis admitted having some misgivings, but the entire point of MotA was helping people who have done nothing wrong be kept safe.

You're still thinking about it from a "I want to be an astronaut!" point of view. It's a much broader perspective. How much better would school have been if you'd been in a class with people who shared your interests and didn't slow down your learning because they didn't pay attention and didn't care about that subject and wanted to be in another class instead, or wanted to be in the schoolyard? If, from an early age, schools helped us figure out we're good at math or science or art and helped us all put that talent to better use?

[Wulfram]

And if you want to be in another class instead, you'll be sent to be reeducated. And if you've got the fortitude to resist that, then your mind will be erased.

If they decide you're going to be a farm labourer, then you're a farm labourer. Wishing to be anything else is treason.

If you see a girl you like and wish to have a child, then that's treason. If you don't wish to sleep with the one assigned to you, that's treason. If you question the justice of destroying the minds of anyone possessing the slightest spark of independence, that's treason.

And if after 50 years of helping in enslavement and murder of innocents you think that maybe you spent your life wrongly, that's treason too.

[Lithuasil]

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...


A 'slave of the qun' doesn't let go of his dreams or suddenly become a drone... he works for the betterment of everyone. He puts his passion where it can benefit the greatest number of people. You're getting the most out of your life that you reasonably can. And rather than turning around fifty years down the road and saying, "****, that sucked!", you can turn around and say, "Wow. I helped my people."  

You do not "put your passion where you're told". But more importantly - this view of things is fairly shortsighted, imho. It assumes that the priests who pick where your destiny lies, who you're going to mate with etc are unfailable. They're not. Nobody is.
More importantly - it assumes that Qunari society has no awful jobs. But someone still has to swipe away feces from public toilets. These jobs do exist in the real world - and the only reason they're not crushing anyone unfortunate enough to do them, is because there's hope. Hope to find a better job, some recreational activities to distract you, vacations... all things that the Qun takes away, and replaces with the fear of brainwashing or execution as a motivator.

Sten, the Arishok, and Tallis all talk about community and doing what is good for the many, not just what makes you feel nice. The Arishok acknowledges how so many people in Kirkwall drown themselves in their own greediness and self-centered ways. Tallis admitted having some misgivings, but the entire point of MotA was helping people who have done nothing wrong be kept safe.

The entire point of MotA was to keep sleeper-agents for a force that, evil or not, is at war with the rest of thedas, from facing the punishment set out for their crimes. (And to rub an annoying mary-sue in the players faces)

You're still thinking about it from a "I want to be an astronaut!" point of view. It's a much broader perspective. How much better would school have been if you'd been in a class with people who shared your interests and didn't slow down your learning because they didn't pay attention and didn't care about that subject and wanted to be in another class instead, or wanted to be in the schoolyard? If, from an early age, schools helped us figure out we're good at math or science or art and helped us all put that talent to better use?

School wasn't perfect, especially not with my physique and background. And while in school, I've wanted to skip certain lessons, a lot.
For most of these, I've found uses in the past couple years, where I would have been worse at what I do, without having learned certain things.  Funnily enough though - judging by my grades in pre-school and my larger family background, I should've specialized in mathematics and sciences - much of which were those very lessons that I would've loved to skip later on, and a field of jobs that I am wholly unsuited for. 

[Punahedan]

Wulfram wrote...

And if you want to be in another class instead, you'll be sent to be reeducated. And if you've got the fortitude to resist that, then your mind will be erased.

If they decide you're going to be a farm labourer, then you're a farm labourer. Wishing to be anything else is treason.

If you see a girl you like and wish to have a child, then that's treason. If you don't wish to sleep with the one assigned to you, that's treason. If you question the justice of destroying the minds of anyone possessing the slightest spark of independence, that's treason.

And if after 50 years of helping in enslavement and murder of innocents you think that maybe you spent your life wrongly, that's treason too.

Yeah, you will be re-educated. I'm not saying that's right. But I am saying that it comes from a good intention: they believe that they are doing the right thing by setting you on a particular path, that you will be most fulfilled by that. My problem with this entire line of thought was that Lithuasil seems to think their purpose is to enslave everyone. It is much more complicated and nuance than that.

Your interpretations are still from a personal perspective, from the modern western "I"-oriented society. Life under the Qun not
meant to be personal. It's not about the individual. It's about the
whole. Every person is a cell in a body. Every cell has a different, important function. A cog in a machine. You need all the parts to work as a well-ordered society. No, it's not for everyone. No, I don't agree with their violent expansion. But it'd be unfair to dismiss it as just slavery or being blindly evil.

And frankly, some people can't do whatever it is they WANT to do. I could want to be an engineer my whole life, but if I can never grasp the concepts or keep up with the workload, no amount of wishing is going to make me an engineer. The priests are not infallible... but they're doing something. That whole society is doing something to try and make sure everyone gets food and shelter and health.

Chantry priests chant at you. Thanks, Chantry priests. That was helpful.

Lithuasil wrote...

You do not "put your passion where
you're told". But more importantly - this view of things is fairly
shortsighted, imho. It assumes that the priests who pick where your
destiny lies, who you're going to mate with etc are unfailable. They're
not. Nobody is.
More importantly - it assumes that Qunari society has
no awful jobs. But someone still has to swipe away feces from public
toilets. These jobs do exist in the real world - and the only reason
they're not crushing anyone unfortunate enough to do them, is because
there's hope. Hope to find a better job, some recreational activities to
distract you, vacations... all things that the Qun takes away, and
replaces with the fear of brainwashing or execution as a motivator.
 

Again, you're looking at the individual and not the society as a whole.

They study you for twelve years and decide where your individual strength is. I don't know what their selection process is like, or what they do with the training. We haven't been told that. But someone has to do every single one of those jobs, nasty or nice, and not in Thedas and not in real life does anyone go to their mail-sorting job or landfill job saying, "Gee, I'm glad to be here today." If we could, not one of us would be doing it. Robots would be. They know that's not an option, so they accept that someone among them is going to have to do it. Yeah, it sucks if you're the one chosen, but everyone still benefits in the end. THAT is the goal: EVERYONE BENEFITS. Rather than only a small piece of the population benefiting.

We also don't know that they don't have recreational activities. We don't know that they don't have holidays or celebrations. You're assuming that they're emotionless because you seem to be equating, "I will give up some comforts of mine so the others around me can be safe, fed, clothed, housed, and clean" with surrendering all free will. For them, the ultimate good probably isn't owning a white picket fence, 2.1 children, and a cozy office job. The ultimate good is building an efficient society where poverty isn't so common.

The entire point of MotA was to keep
sleeper-agents for a force that, evil or not, is at war with the rest of
thedas, from facing the punishment set out for their crimes. (And to
rub an annoying mary-sue in the players faces)
 

I'm sorry you didn't like Tallis. I liked her, though.

Some of those sleeper agents had abandoned the Qun. Some of them were associated with other innocent people. She says that herself. They would ALL be in trouble if those names got out. And even more interesting, Prosper doesn't recognize how valuable that list of names is. It's people, and he dismisses it. He thinks Saliit is giving him some tool or weapon, an object.

School wasn't perfect, especially not with my physique
and background. And while in school, I've wanted to skip certain
lessons, a lot.
For most of these, I've found uses in the past couple
years, where I would have been worse at what I do, without having
learned certain things.  Funnily enough though - judging by my grades in
pre-school and my larger family background, I should've specialized in
mathematics and sciences - much of which were those very lessons that I
would've loved to skip later on, and a field of jobs that I am wholly
unsuited for. 

I don't know what it is you do. But I know that there were a lot of classmates that I had that didn't want to be there and just made learning more difficult for me, and slowed down the whole class. It would have been nice if they'd been in a separate class, so that everyone got the most out of the class for what they needed.

My whole point was, in any case, that none of it stems from a desire to march through Thedas, enslaving. It comes from seeing, perhaps at some point in their past, that people agonized too much over what they wanted to be and who they wanted to become at a great cost to those around them. It seemed unfair to me that it would be dismissed as being evil when they're really just sure they've found a way to make life better. The Chantry thinks if all the world was joined in the Chant of LIght, the Maker would come and make things better. That's nice, but I see the Qun as a practical approach in trying to make things better. It's not the nicest philosophy, but it's not without merit.

[Lithuasil]

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...



They study you for twelve years and decide where your individual strength is. I don't know what their selection process is like, or what they do with the training. We haven't been told that. But someone has to do every single one of those jobs, nasty or nice, and not in Thedas and not in real life does anyone go to their mail-sorting job or landfill job saying, "Gee, I'm glad to be here today."

And just how do you find out that a person has the individual strength to sweep toilets, AND NOTHING ELSE? Here's the first in an incredibly long line of flaws in the qun's line of thinking (and one of the many reasons we're never going to see qunari society actually working). There's a significant percentage of mundane tasks, that do not require specific qualifications or talents. And within that field, the whole selection progress boils down to dumb luck - Priest likes your face, you get to deliver food to the nurseries, Priest doesn't like your face, it's cleaning the sewers for life, for you. 

Also, how do "specialized classes" go together with twelve years of being studied by priests (and just how many priests are there, to come even close to judging people fairly? Because having one fifth of the population as beaurocrats does not make an efficient society). Either the Qunari receive a broad spectrum of education to see how they respond, or the Priests are straight up pulling their judgements out of their backsides. (Or there's twelve years of being studied with broad education, and then specialized classes, meaning even the people who clean toilets are well past twenty (in a medieval setting), before even starting with their jobs.

More importantly though, and you didn't respond to that point - In a society like ours, and even in most Thedosian societies, there's hope. You go to work cleaning the sewers, hoping that one day you (or your kids) won't have to. There's chance for improvement. In the qun, there is not. There's the certainty that you're at someone elses whim, the certainty that your children will be at someone elses whim, and that if you disobey, you'll be mindwiped.

We also don't know that they don't have recreational activities. We don't know that they don't have holidays or celebrations. You're assuming that they're emotionless because you seem to be equating, "I will give up some comforts of mine so the others around me can be safe, fed, clothed, housed, and clean" with surrendering all free will. For them, the ultimate good probably isn't owning a white picket fence, 2.1 children, and a cozy office job. The ultimate good is building an efficient society where poverty isn't so common.

Firstly you seem to be seriously overestimating what impact cultural conditioning can have on the basic directions displayed by... all living creatures, ever (Even the Dalai Lama has a collection of expensive original wrist-watches, while lower members of his religion set themselves on fire out of protest). 
And based on what the qunari-characters in game tell us, about what's a waste of time and what isn't, they more then likely regard what little recreational things there are in medieval times as useless decadence as well. The display the same attitude towards trinkets and jewelry by the way - which does not keep the Arishok from putting on the Bling, because some animals are always more equal then others.

Some of those sleeper agents had abandoned the Qun. Some of them were associated with other innocent people. 

And just what kind of jurisdicial system would stop prosecuting a criminal, if he is repentant or has a family? All the justification given throughout MotA are the insane ramblings of a lunatic, that the player isn't allowed to call out because that would make the writer who projected themselves into tallis very, very sad. 

I don't know what it is you do. 

Me, I write novels. I'm also forced to work as an illustrator, and take a couple assistance jobs at the university at times, since ends won't meet otherwise.That's life for you.

My whole point was, in any case, that none of it stems from a desire to march through Thedas, enslaving. It comes from seeing, perhaps at some point in their past, that people agonized too much over what they wanted to be and who they wanted to become at a great cost to those around them. It seemed unfair to me that it would be dismissed as being evil when they're really just sure they've found a way to make life better. The Chantry thinks if all the world was joined in the Chant of LIght, the Maker would come and make things better. That's nice, but I see the Qun as a practical approach in trying to make things better. It's not the nicest philosophy, but it's not without merit. 

The Qunari think, everybody would be best of enslaved by them. The Darkspawn think that everybody would be best eaten by them. Neither makes it so.

The intend to force someone else to join one's culture, by way of warfare, is morally objectionable by default, period. For that purpose, it is wholly irrelevant what kind of culture we're talking about. Now in the case of the qun, matters get more severe, because a) the missionary notion to conquer everyone else is an integral part of the qun (to my knowledge anyway) and their system is complete lollybonkers.

As far as I can tell, there's precisely one reason why someone not completely desperate would see any merit in a system like the qun. It's the same problem you frequently encounter when discussing the fairly similar concept of platos republic - everyone joining the discussion is under the impression that with a just distribution of power, they themselves would be one of the few chosen "philosopher kings". While this belief is inherently human, it's also inherently flawed for obvious reasons.

[GodWood]

Lithuasil wrote...
Now, speaking as someone young and self-employed, with little support, and practically no safety-nets - yes. Freedom is scary. But shying away from it is still cowardice. All that scary stuff, doubting, struggling - it's called being human. And even the slaves of a tevinter magister have hopes and dreams.
A slave of the qun is supposed to let go of even those, along with everything else that makes him distinguishable from an organic robot. Trading your humanity in, for fake, make-belief certainty, that's a cowards choice, plain and simple.

You are nothing but an organic robot.

"Our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws.

For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk.

It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion."

Modifié par GodWood, 27 septembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[Vandicus]

GodWood wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
Now, speaking as someone young and self-employed, with little support, and practically no safety-nets - yes. Freedom is scary. But shying away from it is still cowardice. All that scary stuff, doubting, struggling - it's called being human. And even the slaves of a tevinter magister have hopes and dreams.
A slave of the qun is supposed to let go of even those, along with everything else that makes him distinguishable from an organic robot. Trading your humanity in, for fake, make-belief certainty, that's a cowards choice, plain and simple.

You are nothing but an organic robot.

"Our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws. For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion."

Woooahhh lets not bring that kind of debate into the thread.

The Qunari qualify as evil by the same standards of morality as magisters of the Tevinter Empire do. The Qunari seek to force convert people through war, and the Tevinters got their whole slavery/blood magic bit. The Qunari's belief that they operate for the greater good(how many times have we heard that before?) don't really change that they operate with open intent to assimilate everyone else into their collective with military force. I'll murderize the lot of them, and those Tevinter magisters, happily.

[marshalleck]

There's no better way to claim the moral high ground than to express your willingness to go on a killing spree against those you disagree with.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 septembre 2012 - 12:58 .

[GodWood]

Vandicus wrote...
Woooahhh lets not bring that kind of debate into the thread.

I was not the one to bring it into the thread.

Someone was using nonsense delusions as a foundation for their argument. I merely called them on that.

The Qunari qualify as evil by the same standards of morality as magisters of the Tevinter Empire do. The Qunari seek to force convert people through war, and the Tevinters got their whole slavery/blood magic bit.

These are two polar opposites.

One seeks to improve the life of everyone. The other is only seeking personal gain. 

I'll murderize the lot of them, and those Tevinter magisters, happily.

Leaving only death, destruction, chaos and a world without meaning or direction. Sounds like if anyone was to qualify as evil, it would be you.

[Lithuasil]

marshalleck wrote...

There's no better way to claim the moral high ground than to express your willingness to go on a killing spree against those you disagree with.

We've stated the fact that the Qun, as a concept and a society shown in the games is evil, and we've expressed the willingness to (if need be preemptively) butcher said evil.
I can't tell for the other posters here, but I've personally never claimed my virtual personas to be "good" or posessing any kind of moral high-ground. That's a fallacy you express to deter the discussion away from the subject matter, and it's wholly irrellevant for judging the qun.

[marshalleck]

Lithuasil wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

There's no better way to claim the moral high ground than to express your willingness to go on a killing spree against those you disagree with.

We've stated the fact that the Qun, as a concept and a society shown in the games is evil, and we've expressed the willingness to (if need be preemptively) butcher said evil.
I can't tell for the other posters here, but I've personally never claimed my virtual personas to be "good" or posessing any kind of moral high-ground. That's a fallacy you express to deter the discussion away from the subject matter, and it's wholly irrellevant for judging the qun.

The qun is no more evil than any other dysfunctional society of Thedas.

[Vandicus]

GodWood wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Woooahhh lets not bring that kind of debate into the thread.

I was not the one to bring it into the thread.

Someone was using nonsense delusions as a foundation for their argument. I merely called them on that.

The Qunari qualify as evil by the same standards of morality as magisters of the Tevinter Empire do. The Qunari seek to force convert people through war, and the Tevinters got their whole slavery/blood magic bit.

These are two polar opposites.

One seeks to improve the life of everyone. The other is only seeking personal gain. 

I'll murderize the lot of them, and those Tevinter magisters, happily.

Leaving only death, destruction, chaos and a world without meaning or direction. Sounds like if anyone was to qualify as evil, it would be you.

Free will is a commonly accepted premise. Starting a debate on its existence is total thread derailment.

Qunari/Tevinters: Violence to those who disagree with them? Check
Qunari/Tevinters: Lower caste/highly abused portions of society? Check
Qunari/Tevinters: Intent on taking over the world with violence? Check

The absence of Tevinter and the Qunari does not result in a world with only "death, destruction, chaos, etc. etc.". Fereldan and Orlais exist outside of these groups if you haven't forgotten.

I'm not sure I understand your rationale that killing people who want to kill or enslave me is an evil action? Its self-defense. If they were willing to leave me and others alone I'd have no bone to pick with them. Since when is self-defense evil?

[Vandicus]

marshalleck wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

There's no better way to claim the moral high ground than to express your willingness to go on a killing spree against those you disagree with.

We've stated the fact that the Qun, as a concept and a society shown in the games is evil, and we've expressed the willingness to (if need be preemptively) butcher said evil.
I can't tell for the other posters here, but I've personally never claimed my virtual personas to be "good" or posessing any kind of moral high-ground. That's a fallacy you express to deter the discussion away from the subject matter, and it's wholly irrellevant for judging the qun.

The qun is no more evil than any other dysfunctional society of Thedas.

I'd say its definitely eviller than Fereldan. Maybe Orlais depending on what we learn of it. Running for competition with Tevinter. Its not the only evil society trying to take over the world in Thedas, but its one of them.

[marshalleck]

Orlais is no stranger to occupation and calling for Exalted Marches on the Chantry's real or perceived enemies.

Ferelden is simply an impoverished feudal backwater that's too intent on navel-gazing and wallowing in the mud to indulge in any imperialistic tendencies.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 septembre 2012 - 01:15 .

[Vandicus]

marshalleck wrote...

Orlais is no stranger to occupation and calling for Exalted Marches on the Chantry's real or perceived enemies.

Ferelden is simply an impoverished feudal backwater that's too intent on navel-gazing and wallowing in the mud to indulge in any imperialistic tendencies.

Ancient Orlais would definitely be their equal in evil. Modern Orlais so far seems more benign. We'll have to see.

[Lithuasil]

marshalleck wrote...

The qun is no more evil than any other dysfunctional society of Thedas.

As has been established multiple times now, by virtue of openly advocating their claim to world domination (rather then atleast considering diplomatic coexistence an option), and by virtue of taking an axe to the foundations of a humane existance, they are considerably more morally objectionable then other societies in Thedas.

More importantly - morality as a commonly accepted concept is not actually relative. So the qun would not be any less evil, even if there were only evil societies in thedas. They'd just stick out less.

[Satyricon331]

marshalleck wrote...
The kossith have gunpowder and cannons on their dreadnoughts. Do any nations of Thedas match their scientific advancement? No. Ergo, all other nations of Thedas that we are aware of are technologically inferior to the Qunari.

Unfortunately we do not have a good glimpse into real, every day qunari culture as their people experience it, but from sources we have available it does seem like the overall standard of living is better for all than it is in any other land. Minimal crime, no poverty, every able-bodied person contributes to the whole and receives back in kind, and the infirm are cared for. So yeah, seems to me many nations of Thedas are inferior.

This is why I find the Qunari so boring.  It's as if the writers became so fond of the their pet creation that they got carried away and made the Qunari super-duper-wonderfully "superior."  The only weakness they have relative to the other civs (that I know of) is that they reproduce comparatively slowly.  Even their tech advantage is boring in my view since the tech they have that nobody else has is just tech pulled straight from the real world.  Maybe as we learn more about them they'll improve... but at this point I'm not really interested in learning anything more about them.

[Sylvianus]

More Qun / Kossith is cool ( since they are very epic and interesting ) as long as I am not railroaded into a Qunari agenda.

[GodWood]

Vandicus wrote...
Free will is a commonly accepted premise.

Only among the plebs who haven't done much research into the matter. It's commonly accepted amongst the scientific community to be an illusion.

Or are we going to let democracy dictate what's true and what's not?

Qunari/Tevinters: Violence to those who disagree with them? Check

As do all societies in Thedas (as well as yourself apparently)

Qunari/Tevinters: Lower caste/highly abused portions of society? Check

As do all societies in Thedas. The difference between them and the qunari is that the Qun respects all within it. All members of the qun are equal, every role is important.

Qunari/Tevinters: Intent on taking over the world with violence? Check

They intend to take over the world by any means necessary. Violence be one of those means but it is not the only mean.

Just like every other major faction in Thedas.

The absence of Tevinter and the Qunari does not result in a world with only "death, destruction, chaos, etc. etc.". Fereldan and Orlais exist outside of these groups if you haven't forgotten.

What Marshalleck said.

I'm not sure I understand your rationale that killing people who want to kill or enslave me is an evil action? Its self-defense. If they were willing to leave me and others alone I'd have no bone to pick with them. Since when is self-defense evil?

You have now changed your stance. It still makes no difference.

Modifié par GodWood, 27 septembre 2012 - 01:48 .

[Lithuasil]

GodWood wrote...
Only among the plebs who haven't done much research into the matter. It's commonly accepted amongst the scientific community to be an illusion.

While I don't want to derail the thread any further, I'd like to point out that you might want to keep the insults down a little, and I'm inclined to ask if you appreciate the irony of bringing a position into this discussion that, while highly questionable in itself, promises to offer simple certainty in place of dealing with a complex subject.

[GodWood]

Lithuasil wrote...
While I don't want to derail the thread any further, I'd like to point out that you might want to keep the insults down a little,

There have been no insults. 

and I'm inclined to ask if you appreciate the irony of bringing a position into this discussion that, while highly questionable in itself,

Go on then, question it. 

[Loki_344]

Lithuasil wrote...

Well, they are still hellbent on enslaving every single sentient being in thedas, so their invasion isn't too unlikely.
I could do without though, I prefer morally ambiguous adversaries over pure-evil (And that's what the Qunari are, period)

I think you meant "enlightening" Bas!

***edit***

And for all of you fantasizing about how you'd like to "wipe the Qunari out" or whatever. It's quite doubtful you'll ever be given the chance. The Qunari/Kossith/Tal V's are pretty much the best thing this series has going for it and the writers damn well know it. Besides, without the Qunari this series would be an even more generic flavor of fantasy and all of you "freedom lovers" would only have the chantry left to write anti-opression posts about.

Just thinking about this series without the Qunari makes me want to pre-cancel my Dragon Age 4 pre-order!

Modifié par Loki_344, 27 septembre 2012 - 02:23 .

[Lithuasil]

GodWood wrote...
Go on then, question it.

As mentioned, discussing such a topic would not only derail the thread, but take it dangerously close to the kind of "real-world-belief" discussion that is (rightfully) not tolerated here. 
Feel free to contact me via pm, if you're interested in more then just derailing the thread.

[GodWood]

Lithuasil wrote...
As mentioned, discussing such a topic would not only derail the thread, but take it dangerously close to the kind of "real-world-belief" discussion that is (rightfully) not tolerated here.

"Real world belief" is only a site issue if it involves religion.

If your views are religious however I'll happily stop, seeing that any kind rational thought or discusssion would be absolutely pointless.

[Lithuasil]

GodWood wrote...
"Real world belief" is only a site issue if it involves religion. 

If your views are religious however I'll happily stop, seeing that any kind rational thought or discusssion would be absolutely pointless.

It's a site-issue whenever it touches a subject that people get worked up about. And those full of the conventional sciences (especially those mistaking them to be absolute), tend to get as defensive as religious people. They're a lot more pretentious in their namecalling though. Either way, it's a neurologic or philosophical discussion (depending on approach) with at best peripheral relation to the subject of this thread, so it'd be spam either way.

Also, do I really strike you like the religious type?