95 réponses à ce sujet

[Loki_344]

Satyricon331 wrote...
This is why I find the Qunari so boring.  It's as if the writers became so fond of the their pet creation that they got carried away and made the Qunari super-duper-wonderfully "superior."  The only weakness they have relative to the other civs (that I know of) is that they reproduce comparatively slowly.  Even their tech advantage is boring in my view since the tech they have that nobody else has is just tech pulled straight from the real world.  Maybe as we learn more about them they'll improve... but at this point I'm not really interested in learning anything more about them.

Would it be better if they were under humanities heel like the elves or so trapped in tradition and underpopulated that they're on the verge of extinction like the dwarves? The Qunari are exactly what an antagonist need to be; strong, intelligent, resourceful, able to beat their enemy at their own game (convert), and totally sure that they're in the right, no matter how despicable their actions may seem to the unenlightened.

[Lithuasil]

So strong, ressourceful and intelligent indeed, that their greatest warrior, along with hundreds of his men, was butchered by a dozen mages/templars/mercenaries, despite catching Kirkwall completely pants down, and preparing his ambush for month.

Here's the real issue - I don't mind them being threatening, and I certainly prefer butchering Qunari to butchering yet another legion of darkspawn. But with the writers torn between Status Quo, and a completely unfounded love for qunari - they're given all these toys, painted as so far superior, and despite that managed to conquer next to nothing in three hundred years of warfare.
Add in the trainwreck that was mota, and it feels like the writers really don't know what to do with the Qunari, and just keep bringing them back because *someone* on the staff loves them a big huggy much.

[Gallimatia]

GodWood wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
As mentioned, discussing such a topic would not only derail the thread, but take it dangerously close to the kind of "real-world-belief" discussion that is (rightfully) not tolerated here.

"Real world belief" is only a site issue if it involves religion.

If your views are religious however I'll happily stop, seeing that any kind rational thought or discusssion would be absolutely pointless.

Free will is a religious belief. Someone that has it is supernatural ie. a god or an image of God or something. There is nothing to discuss about it.

[Satyricon331]

Loki_344 wrote...
Would it be better if they were under humanities heel like the elves or so trapped in tradition and underpopulated that they're on the verge of extinction like the dwarves? 

Right, because those are the only alternatives.  Good grief.  If you like them that's fine, but don't pretend my finding them boring means I just dislike all antagonists that are what they "need" to be.

[Loki_344]

Lithuasil wrote...

So strong, ressourceful and intelligent indeed, that their greatest warrior, along with hundreds of his men, was butchered by a dozen mages/templars/mercenaries, despite catching Kirkwall completely pants down, and preparing his ambush for month.

How else were they supposed to make the player feel like a special little snowflake? It was a badly written situation used to introduce the main players in Kirwall, show how badass they were and toot the PC's horn. I wouldn't use that as evidence of Qunari capability if I was on your side of the argument. Besides, considering that the Arishok had been losing men to desertion/death for years at this point and was engaging one of the largest Templar strongpoints in the world, I'd say they did pretty well.

Here's the real issue - I don't mind them being threatening, and I
certainly prefer butchering Qunari to butchering yet another legion of
darkspawn. But with the writers torn between Status Quo, and a
completely unfounded love for qunari - they're given all these toys,
painted as so far superior, and despite that managed to conquer next to
nothing in three hundred years of warfare.

If I'm not mistaken there have been numerous bits of dialogue from Sten/Fenris that have alluded to the Qunari holding back their forces for some unexplained reason. They're apparently content in holding their island for now and occassionally harrassing Tevinter. Whatever is going on I certainly think it is foolish to doubt the Qunari's military capability.

Add in the trainwreck that
was mota, and it feels like the writers really don't know what to do
with the Qunari, and just keep bringing them back because *someone* on
the staff loves them a big huggy much.

I think your reading into nothing. They definitely have a plan for the Qunari and your distaste for them is leading you too look for any excuse to lable them as being boring/overexposed/unneeded.

Modifié par Loki_344, 27 septembre 2012 - 03:27 .

[Loki_344]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Loki_344 wrote...
Would it be better if they were under humanities heel like the elves or so trapped in tradition and underpopulated that they're on the verge of extinction like the dwarves? 

Right, because those are the only alternatives.  Good grief.  If you like them that's fine, but don't pretend my finding them boring means I just dislike all antagonists that are what they "need" to be.

I wasn't making a statement, I was asking a question. I believe that their position in the world makes them a good contrast for the other non-human races and puts them in the perfect position for being the series main antagonist. If you disagree and find them boring then have fun with that because I wasn't trying to change your mind.

Modifié par Loki_344, 27 septembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Lithuasil]

I'm fine with seeing more of them, much as I'd prefer more interesting foes. But I'd also prefer it to be in a more consistent fashion then they are portrayed now (Where the games reality, and their actions ingame contradict their claims and the claims made about them). But most of all, I'd like to be able to oppose them, rather then being railroaded into waving their flag around (Hello MotA).

[Loki_344]

That's the nature of videogames... lack of realism to the max. Did it make any sense for the Warden and his rag tag band of outcasts to murder every single darkspawn in Ferelden by their lonesome. I don't think so. In discussions like these you have to separate the lore from the game or it's all basically pointless.

I understand where your coming from for the most part, but I just don't see how anyone can find the Qunari to be boring. Objectionable? Sure. Annoying? Definitely. Oppressive? You betcha. But Boring? They're really one of the most fascinating fictional races I've ever encountered. I really enjoy having an enemy that sees the world in a completely different way than I've been taught too. I mean look at it this way, their nature has certainly led to some interesting theological discussions, even in this thread itself.

As far as your complaints about "flag waving" and all... hopefully the devs will help you with that. I still doubt you'll ever get the chance to "kill em all".

Modifié par Loki_344, 27 septembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[Lithuasil]

None of the concepts united in the Qun are that original, outside the narrow field of "fantasy rpg". What makes the Qunari boring is comparison. They are a form of culture not commonly explored in fantasy, yes. And that certainly makes them more interesting adversaries then the singleminded dark spawn / demons. But they're ultimately so inhuman, that they become unrelateable. I can only object their morality (or lack thereof), so there's no moral concerns involved with opposing them - which ultimately makes them much less interesting then a more humane enemy would be - one whose goals I can understand. The conflict between mages and templars for instance - both sides have a point, and both sides have had decades to build up grudges. Unlike a qunari invasion, that's not a conflict that can be properly solved by mindless application of sword, and that's precisely the sort of thing I prefer to see in my rpgs.

And the other issue is one of representation, inherent in the qunaris culture. They're all about conformism, which severely limits the amount of characters they can produce. We've had "stalwart, no-nonsense Warrior Guy" twice now, and they pretty much sang the same song. And until the Qun suffers a series of defeats so crushing it actually wakes them up, that song is the only tune we can be expected to hear from qunari npcs. (Hence why a fleshed out Tal Vashoth companion for instance would be much more interesting)

[Satyricon331]

Loki_344 wrote...
[...] but I just don't see how anyone can find the Qunari to be boring. Objectionable? Sure. Annoying? Definitely. Oppressive? You betcha. But Boring? They're really one of the most fascinating fictional races I've ever encountered. I really enjoy having an enemy that sees the world in a completely different way than I've been taught too. I mean look at it this way, their nature has certainly led to some interesting theological discussions, even in this thread itself.  [...]

You know, I'll respond to that.  I think that the Qunari society touches on philosophical topics that actually are interesting, and I've even participated in some threads that discussed them.  But the Qunari themselves bore me.  They implement their philosophical ideas too flawlessly (what other society does that?) and they're too superhuman-perfect, kind of like Tolkein elves (who reflected some fun mythology) minus the magic and plus some tech I've seen before too many times.  Unless they're sitting on some significant internal problems that they've hidden from the rest of Thedas, then by knowing their philosophy you know basically all there is to their society (unless you count the Tal-Vashoth).  

Even the Qunari characters so far are dull imo.  Personally, I thought Sten was painfully uninteresting - his idea of a quality argument was to cite a parable - and the Arishok was what you'd expect him to be.  I thought Tallis was a start, but she was a new convert and an elf beside.  I guess another point here is that to the extent there is philosophical discussion of the Qun in the game, it's seemed pretty flat (I'm thinking specifically of what I've seen of that MOTA part where you can question Tallis a bit about the Qun's downsides).  I'm not as sure as Lithuasil is that the Qun can't produce other characters - maybe a priest-type could somehow have some combat skill and not be as mindless - but I'm not optimistic.  At the least, I haven't liked what I've seen so far.

Again, just my opinion.  It's just as well some people enjoy them since it's clear they'll be showing up again in future games.

[Loki_344]

Sten and the Arishok were two characters that you could say originated from the same mold, but imo were both unique, totally fleshed out, and memorable while being bound by the "limits" of the Qun. I get what your saying though... it would be pretty boring if every character was a rhetoric spewing cyborg goat man, but that's where good writing for fully realized original characters comes in (right Bioware).

I'm not going to get into a theological discussion here, because I look at that stuff through the eyes of an interested observer on the sidelines, but I will say that their philosophy while totally alien and I'm sure somewhat reprehensible to most people in today's civilized world does represent a question. That question is what makes the Qunari as a concept so interesting to me and while I myself or you it seems could never agree with that question, it doesn't completely keep me from being able to relate to them. Sten grieved for fallen friends, found Morrigan to be annoying, and liked cookies. These were all thing things that we had in common.

If you have no moral objection to exterminating an entire species that doesn't see the world in the same way that you do then hopefully the writer's can change your mind because I know I can't. Myself, on the other hand would have a bit of an issue with it purely as a fan of the series because I think the games would be lesser without them.

[Loki_344]

Satyricon331 wrote...
You know, I'll respond to that.  I think that the Qunari society touches on philosophical topics that actually are interesting, and I've even participated in some threads that discussed them.  But the Qunari themselves bore me.  They implement their philosophical ideas too flawlessly (what other society does that?) and they're too superhuman-perfect, kind of like Tolkein elves (who reflected some fun mythology) minus the magic and plus some tech I've seen before too many times.  Unless they're sitting on some significant internal problems that they've hidden from the rest of Thedas, then by knowing their philosophy you know basically all there is to their society (unless you count the Tal-Vashoth). 

The Tal Vashoth are definitely a bigger problem than the Qunari are letting on and I really doubt that Qunari society is the perfect little ant colony that Sten or the Arishok would want you to believe (we've already seen how many kossith defectors/traitors?). That's why I'm looking forward to a Tal Vashoth companion to hear about the downside of the Qun from someone who isn't drinking the Kool-aid. I can also gaurantee that their is a whole lot of more to the Qunari than we've seen. We already have a ton of unanswered questions from what little exposure we've had to them. Just off the top of my head... Where did they come from? Why did they leave? Why do the ships they send back to their homeland never return? We know their preparing for war and have no intention of honoring any peace treaties, so why aren't they attacking? What the hells a Fex? Why don't they ever leave the island? How are they converting all of these sleeper agents who I assume must be in powerful positions?

We also haven't been given a real taste of what makes the Qun such an attractive option to converts (it can't all be brainwashing) or been given a glimpse of what it's like to simply exist in Qunari society from an unbiased perspective.

Modifié par Loki_344, 27 septembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[Satyricon331]

meh. I'll believe there's some worthwhile complexity there when Bioware starts showing me some. I mean, many of the questions you mention (not all) are basically "why are they so perfect"?

[Argetfalcon]

I support a female kossith LI

[MewtwoJosh]

I support more qun

[Vandicus]

I support more Qunari mobs.

[Beerfish]

I think the Qunari will and should have a big part in the next game. I will only be happy though if I can totally oppose them and try and put them down. The Qun is phoney a as a 3 dollar bill and the leaders such as the Arishok are arrogant fools. Though extreme, sister/mother Petrice had it right.

[Shevy]

I fear they won't play a big role in DA III, which is sad because I find them and the terms around their planned invasion way more interesting than the mages/templar conflict.
At least an appearance of a female kossith would be great. The concept and the one in the comic look brilliant.

[Annihilator27]

I would love to see more history of the Qun.It can still be fleshed out.

[Bekkael]

Annihilator27 wrote...

I would love to see more history of the Qun.It can still be fleshed out.

+1. There is much storytelling potential there. Not just for the Qun religion, but for the Kossith race as a whole. It's all so intriguing.

[Annihilator27]

Bekkael wrote...

Annihilator27 wrote...

I would love to see more history of the Qun.It can still be fleshed out.

+1. There is much storytelling potential there. Not just for the Qun religion, but for the Kossith race as a whole. It's all so intriguing.

Yeah,They became my favorite race in DA2.