108 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

 I am probably already making something that exists on these forums elsewhere, in both positive and negative terms, but I do have a question.

In the wake of the (often unjustified) outcry against the company and all of that, I am curious if we will see some extra transparency from the dev team regarding Inquisition. Nothing like the storyline being leaked or characters being shown before an embargo lifts, but I mean maybe developer blogs on what is being planned, changed, the development cycle, and so forth. 

I remember the BioWare TV-video spots that were done to gear up for Mass Effect 3. They were good, but I always think you can go a step further with them. Not so much give out info, but define what is being done outside of broad terms. To take inspiration from what Obsidian is doing with Project Eternity, they are literally detailing how things are going to work, and how everything is treated, from the state of the world in-game, to how companions will be treated, to how classes/design is working.

You guys have done some of this too. The blog on how the armor customization will work is a prime example of this, as are the Mark Darrah blogs so far. I would love to see more of that as the development for Dragon Age III goes deeper. I would also think it would alleviate tensions around here somewhat as well; basically putting your foot down and saying "this is what you will expect because this is what we have changed" is perhaps the best way to stem a lot of the negativity here, because then people know what they are getting into if they choose to pick up the title for launch.

Of course I leave the decision to you,  but I personally think that sort of transparency would be a good course of action to keep the community on its toes, as it were. 

And if you think this thread is just a re-hash of things said, by all means delete or lock it. I am not trying to incite a flame war, I am just offering a suggestion of discourse.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 25 septembre 2012 - 05:15 .

[Bob Garbage]

But you wouldn't buy the piece of crap and preorder the special limited edition that comes with a dreamy poster of Alistair and a coaster for your coffee table and access to a character/quest that should have been in the original version of the game anyway if they did that.

[Maria Caliban]

They've attempted to do this several times. It tends to peter out after awhile. If I recall correctly, Jay helped set up the BioWare Wednesdays, which was something like you asked with weekly updates on what they were doing.

Bob Garbage wrote...

But you wouldn't buy the piece of crap and preorder the special limited edition that comes with a dreamy poster of Alistair and a coaster for your coffee table and access to a character/quest that should have been in the original version of the game anyway if they did that.

Yes, I would.

[Bob Garbage]

True, I really want that poster.

[John Epler]

Transparency is great, and good, and it is definitely something that's on our radar for Dragon Age 3. As has been mentioned previously by Mark and others, we're adopting a 'show, don't tell' approach for DA3, part of which will be providing context and showing off parts of the game/development that we think you'll want to see.

Are we ever going to be completely transparent? No. Game development involves a lot of things changing behind the scenes, and dangling a piece of candy in front of you and then saying 'oh, sorry, you can't have that candy because we realized we don't have the resources to give you that piece of candy as well as all the other candy we want to make' isn't particularly useful. Things get cut, things get added back and things get scaled up or down depending on what resources are available and whether they make continued sense in the grand scheme of things.

This is not going to please everyone. That being said, there are people out there who not only want but feel that they deserve to know every detail about the development process, down to the exact dollar figures we spend on catering or outsourcing. That's never going to happen. But more transparency? I think so. That will come once we have more to discuss, though.

[upsettingshorts]

More transparency would be good - especially for posters who take what you guys say seriously. Conspiracy theorists will just adjust their tinfoil and proceed from a different angle.

[LinksOcarina]

John Epler wrote...

Transparency is great, and good, and it is definitely something that's on our radar for Dragon Age 3. As has been mentioned previously by Mark and others, we're adopting a 'show, don't tell' approach for DA3, part of which will be providing context and showing off parts of the game/development that we think you'll want to see.

Are we ever going to be completely transparent? No. Game development involves a lot of things changing behind the scenes, and dangling a piece of candy in front of you and then saying 'oh, sorry, you can't have that candy because we realized we don't have the resources to give you that piece of candy as well as all the other candy we want to make' isn't particularly useful. Things get cut, things get added back and things get scaled up or down depending on what resources are available and whether they make continued sense in the grand scheme of things.

This is not going to please everyone. That being said, there are people out there who not only want but feel that they deserve to know every detail about the development process, down to the exact dollar figures we spend on catering or outsourcing. That's never going to happen. But more transparency? I think so. That will come once we have more to discuss, though.

Of course. I would not expect every detail to be given out either. That would be foolish on my part and presumptuous of the consumer/developer relationship. Nor do I expect every detail to be known either.

I am refering to the general details of what to expect. Like I said with the armor customization, right now I expect to see the unique style of armor for each companion, while getting to customize them to make them unique. That was an issue that was raised a while ago, one that seems to be tackled at this point. I mean more transparancy on things like that; on what to expect and what has changed.  And if this idea changes or is never implemented, we should know if possible. 

I know you won't divulge into details fully for a long time, but as an example, the combat has been described to be more about preperation and postioning over the action oriented combat of II, and the dice rolling combat of Origins. A blog to show what that truely means, going into detail, showing examples, and so forth would be the transparency I am referring to in this case, if that makes sense. 

Of course, not everyone will be satisfied, but then people will know what they are getting into without this misplaced  sense of betrayal thats going around. It's basically the intermedium that will strengthen the consumer/developer relatonship instead of shattering it, because then the main features are on the table for everyone to see if this is what they want or not, and then can't if that makes any sense. Keeping it too general leaves it open for interpretation, while too specific is impossible because of what you have to keep under wraps. 

Again if i'm overstepping or anything I apologize. Thanks for the reply though. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 25 septembre 2012 - 05:57 .

[axl99]

This is a great example of the kind of transparency Epler was talking about a second ago.

It's not overly technical as to alienate some of the viewers but it's enough information to go on so we can see the thought process behind how something was made.

Modifié par axl99, 25 septembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[Wulfram]

I don't know. In some ways games might be like sausages.

If all we got was a "Game is coming out next month, here's a feature list", that would be OK with me - as long as the feature list was accurate, anyway.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

As long as there are no twitter deaths.

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't know. In some ways games might be like sausages.

The hypothetical benefit of inceased transparency would be to dispell the notions some folks have about how said sausages are made by showing how they're actually made.

Then at least their criticisms and comments would be based in reality.

[marshalleck]

John Epler wrote...

Transparency is great, and good, and it is definitely something that's on our radar for Dragon Age 3. As has been mentioned previously by Mark and others, we're adopting a 'show, don't tell' approach for DA3, part of which will be providing context and showing off parts of the game/development that we think you'll want to see.

Are we ever going to be completely transparent? No. Game development involves a lot of things changing behind the scenes, and dangling a piece of candy in front of you and then saying 'oh, sorry, you can't have that candy because we realized we don't have the resources to give you that piece of candy as well as all the other candy we want to make' isn't particularly useful. Things get cut, things get added back and things get scaled up or down depending on what resources are available and whether they make continued sense in the grand scheme of things.

This is not going to please everyone. That being said, there are people out there who not only want but feel that they deserve to know every detail about the development process, down to the exact dollar figures we spend on catering or outsourcing. That's never going to happen. But more transparency? I think so. That will come once we have more to discuss, though.

 Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't know. In some ways games might be like sausages.

The hypothetical benefit of inceased transparency would be to dispell the notions some folks have about how said sausages are made by showing how they're actually made.

Then at least their criticisms and comments would be based in reality.

I don't know if making our collective blatherings marginally more coherent is a worthwhile aim.

[DonSwingKing]

 Yes. Some sort of "What we are up to" thread on let's say weekly basis would be cool. A thread created by a Bioware member, who states the progress of the development in a couple of short sentences. The content of this thread is irrelevant and totally up to Bioware.

Modifié par DonSwingKing, 25 septembre 2012 - 06:27 .

[upsettingshorts]

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

There is nothing wrong with that, given the nature of development cycles.  Here's another dev talking about how development - yes, involving DLC - actually happens.

I swear the over-under on the number of times I'm going to post this link before DA3's release is 250.  I'm gonna take the over.

Wulfram wrote...

I don't know if making our collective blatherings marginally more coherent is a worthwhile aim.

It would certainly make coming around here less of a chore.  That would go for regular posters as well as those with BioWare tags. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 septembre 2012 - 06:26 .

[marshalleck]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

There is nothing wrong with that, given the nature of development cycles.  Here's another dev talking about how development - yes, involving DLC - actually happens.

I swear the over-under on the number of times I'm going to post this link before DA3's release is 250.  I'm gonna take the over.

Definitely over, because I don't care, won't follow the link, and will almost assuredly mention the game being chopped up and parceled out for additional payments in the future. At least for as long as this is EA's MO.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 septembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[eyesofastorm]

John Epler wrote...

Transparency is great, and good, and it is definitely something that's on our radar for Dragon Age 3. As has been mentioned previously by Mark and others, we're adopting a 'show, don't tell' approach for DA3, part of which will be providing context and showing off parts of the game/development that we think you'll want to see.

Are we ever going to be completely transparent? No. Game development involves a lot of things changing behind the scenes, and dangling a piece of candy in front of you and then saying 'oh, sorry, you can't have that candy because we realized we don't have the resources to give you that piece of candy as well as all the other candy we want to make' isn't particularly useful. Things get cut, things get added back and things get scaled up or down depending on what resources are available and whether they make continued sense in the grand scheme of things.

This is not going to please everyone. That being said, there are people out there who not only want but feel that they deserve to know every detail about the development process, down to the exact dollar figures we spend on catering or outsourcing. That's never going to happen. But more transparency? I think so. That will come once we have more to discuss, though.

Erm... I always thought that a blackout is the opposite of transparency.  Cause, you know, if you black out a window for instance it is no longer transparent but is now opaque.  And yeah, I know, "Show don't tell" and that's fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too and such.  You just can't.  That's what I'm told anyway.  And if you are going to get all transparent on us after everything is done... well, I don't see the value in transparency at that point cause the whole point of transparency is to open oneself or one's organization up to scrutiny and criticism.  And you know... what you guys are doing is the opposite of that.  Just sayin.

[upsettingshorts]

marshalleck wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

There is nothing wrong with that, given the nature of development cycles.  Here's another dev talking about how development - yes, involving DLC - actually happens.

I swear the over-under on the number of times I'm going to post this link before DA3's release is 250.  I'm gonna take the over.

Definitely over, because I don't care, won't follow the link, and will almost assuredly mention the game being chopped up and parceled out for additional payments in the future.

"I don't care about transparency or facts because I've imagined all I need to know, and my imagination best serves my interests despite its evident contradiction of reality."

[marshalleck]

Pretty much, yep

[berelinde]

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

Why is there hate for Day 1 DLC? Are the devs supposed to sit on their hands between the time the main story is done and the time the game finally gets released?

From what I've been able to gather, stuff gets added to and cut from games all the time, but eventually, they're going to have to decide on the final version. It will include everything that's ready to go on that deadline. That isn't the end of development, though. There are approvals, final QA rounds, etc., and then there's that whole publishing and distribution thing. The whole process probably takes quite some time.

Meanwhile, the devs are still working every day. They're probably working on some "new" stuff, but they're probably working on some previously cut content, too, trying to see if they can fine-tune it to the point where it can be released as DLC. If they didn't work on it, there wouldn't be any DLC, true, but there wouldn't be any extra game content, either.

If said DLC is ready by release day, it winds up as Day 1 DLC. If not, it gets relased as Day 99 DLC. Does it matter?

Or is this because people resent the fact that people who pre-ordered the game get it for free? It's business. There's nothing wrong with offering incentives for investment. It's kind of like the old days when banks used to give away trinkets in exchange for opening an account.

[marshalleck]

berelinde wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

Why is there hate for Day 1 DLC? Are the devs supposed to sit on their hands between the time the main story is done and the time the game finally gets released?

Not at all! That seems like a great time for QA and prep for post-release bug stomping. 

[Wulfram]

berelinde wrote...

Why is there hate for Day 1 DLC? Are the devs supposed to sit on their hands between the time the main story is done and the time the game finally gets released?

No, they're supposed to work on making the game better.

[upsettingshorts]

marshalleck wrote...

berelinde wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

Why is there hate for Day 1 DLC? Are the devs supposed to sit on their hands between the time the main story is done and the time the game finally gets released?

Not at all! That seems like a great time for QA and prep for post-release bug stomping. 

"All development personnel and resources are the same."

Wulfram wrote...

No, they're supposed to work on making the game better.

Oh really?  I bet they're kicking around this fantastic feedback in the offices of Edmonton right now.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 septembre 2012 - 07:01 .

[Atakuma]

marshalleck wrote...

berelinde wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

Why is there hate for Day 1 DLC? Are the devs supposed to sit on their hands between the time the main story is done and the time the game finally gets released?

Not at all! That seems like a great time for QA and prep for post-release bug stomping. 

They do that regardless.

[berelinde]

marshalleck wrote...

berelinde wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

Why is there hate for Day 1 DLC? Are the devs supposed to sit on their hands between the time the main story is done and the time the game finally gets released?

Not at all! That seems like a great time for QA and prep for post-release bug stomping. 

They use different resources. I wouldn't expect the writers to grind quests to find out that talking to Hewey before talking to Dewey makes Louie have nothing to say, nor would I expect the art department to spend the weeks between the production deadline and the release date spell-checking the Codex.

DLC is a way for everybody to stay busy.

@Wulfram: Same thing.