108 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

marshalleck wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

There is nothing wrong with that, given the nature of development cycles.  Here's another dev talking about how development - yes, involving DLC - actually happens.

I swear the over-under on the number of times I'm going to post this link before DA3's release is 250.  I'm gonna take the over.

Definitely over, because I don't care, won't follow the link, and will almost assuredly mention the game being chopped up and parceled out for additional payments in the future. At least for as long as this is EA's MO.

You should follow the link.  I think Paradox has a good model for the level of openness and transparency with their customers.

[EricHVela]

I think we're getting enough info about DA3:I as they can give at this time.

I would rather, on Bioware-TV, see some of the context for the weird out-of-context quotes they often put on their twitter feeds (or worse, have someone create a scene for the out-of-context implication).

More to-the-point, I want to occasionally see the Human, "not-advertising-the-game" side of Bioware. (Not too unlike this video of James B. Jones at his new home but with less game promotion and more pointless silliness.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:24 .

[upsettingshorts]

marshalleck wrote...
Of course not. Neither of those two esteemed gentlemen have any credibility.

That'll learn 'em.

marshalleck wrote... 

And I find it amusing that you seem to think Bioware and EA are separate entities.

I do not think this.  BioWare is a label.   Everyone working there is an EA employee.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:24 .

[Icinix]

Actually - one of the things about DA2 I liked was the amount of information / demo / videos showing combat etc was provided up to release.

There were a lot of cries of concern obviously, which I think ended up being pretty accurate, but it was honest and everyone knew the kind of game they were getting (for better or worse).

So hopefully we'll see the kind of release of information in a similar format.

[upsettingshorts]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Don't forget the things that get made and then chopped out and repackaged as day one DLC!

There is nothing wrong with that, given the nature of development cycles.  Here's another dev talking about how development - yes, involving DLC - actually happens.

I swear the over-under on the number of times I'm going to post this link before DA3's release is 250.  I'm gonna take the over.

Definitely over, because I don't care, won't follow the link, and will almost assuredly mention the game being chopped up and parceled out for additional payments in the future. At least for as long as this is EA's MO.

You should follow the link.  I think Paradox has a good model for the level of openness and transparency with their customers.

Indeed.  They recently posted a dev blog about what features from Europa Universalis III they're cutting/changing dramatically in Europa Universalis IV.  They also do short, limited preview dev diaries showing what they're doing with some new feature in the next game, expansion, DLC, or patch on fairly regular basis.  

[Allan Schumacher]

There's also a problem in that you really only get one first impression. If we show you a feature that's not really done, and part of it doesn't look great - even if we show you that feature two months later and it looks significantly better, there's a chance that whatever your perception was of the feature initially is going to colour how you see it.

Just to echo John's perspective...

There are people (foolishly) raging over the XCOM demo because it was just the tutorial. Therefore, the ENTIRE game MUST be hand holding and railroaded linear missions.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You should follow the link.  I think Paradox has a good model for the level of openness and transparency with their customers.

Paradox is easily one of my top-five favourite game developers.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There's also a problem in that you really only get one first impression. If we show you a feature that's not really done, and part of it doesn't look great - even if we show you that feature two months later and it looks significantly better, there's a chance that whatever your perception was of the feature initially is going to colour how you see it.

Just to echo John's perspective...

There are people (foolishly) raging over the XCOM demo because it was just the tutorial. Therefore, the ENTIRE game MUST be hand holding and railroaded linear missions.

People are dumb.

I just wish there was a way to let them be dumb and ignore them without that impacting your bottom line.

[Allan Schumacher]

Indeed. They recently posted a dev blog about what features from Europa Universalis III they're cutting/changing dramatically in Europa Universalis IV. They also do short, limited preview dev diaries showing what they're doing with some new feature in the next game, expansion, DLC, or patch on fairly regular basis.

I love their dev diaries. I actually hope that we do stuff like this!

I've tried to be a bit more open with discourse as well. Sometimes it doesn't make people happy because it's not what they want to hear, but hopefully they still appreciate it haha.

[Vandicus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There's also a problem in that you really only get one first impression. If we show you a feature that's not really done, and part of it doesn't look great - even if we show you that feature two months later and it looks significantly better, there's a chance that whatever your perception was of the feature initially is going to colour how you see it.

Just to echo John's perspective...

There are people (foolishly) raging over the XCOM demo because it was just the tutorial. Therefore, the ENTIRE game MUST be hand holding and railroaded linear missions.

Admit it. You sometimes find our wild speculation and rabid foaming at the mouth hilarious. 

[marshalleck]

Fine, maybe I'll read it just because Mr. Schumacher suggested it, if only because I respect his candor on the BSN. But I expect it to be more of the same sort of handwringing and excuses you always hear on this subject. Time, money. Two resources which always dry up during development but then have magically reappeared when launch day is looming and they need some paid DLC for the marketplace.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:29 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

People are dumb.

I just wish there was a way to let them be dumb and ignore them without that impacting your bottom line.

The irony I find is that these people are the ones that consider themselves so much smarter than the "typical gamer."

[Il Divo]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There's also a problem in that you really only get one first impression. If we show you a feature that's not really done, and part of it doesn't look great - even if we show you that feature two months later and it looks significantly better, there's a chance that whatever your perception was of the feature initially is going to colour how you see it.

Just to echo John's perspective...

There are people (foolishly) raging over the XCOM demo because it was just the tutorial. Therefore, the ENTIRE game MUST be hand holding and railroaded linear missions.

Yeah, but the point of any demo/tutorial is to reflect something close to the actual experience which the player will be receiving. Otherwise, what is the point? For alot of games, it may be true that the demo is not reflective of the final product, or that there are hidden strengths which the demo does not adequately demonstrate. But I don't think that should be an immediate assumption. At best, if it's a game that I might have been interested in, I'll listen to other final impressions before making an actual purchase decision.

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:30 .

[henkez3]

I for one thank the maker that Peter Molnyeux isn't on BioWare, that is PR and dev-customer dialogue gone horribly wrong!

[Icinix]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

People are dumb.

I just wish there was a way to let them be dumb and ignore them without that impacting your bottom line.

The irony I find is that these people are the ones that consider themselves so much smarter than the "typical gamer."

In their defence - I think people have become so jaded because so many times in the past their worst fears for a game have been accurate.

Not that that justifies some of what people say and do in internet land - but I know watching C&C disintegrate over the years now makes me lol whenever I hear someone talk about C&C even before I get any facts myself.

[Wulfram]

Peoples unreasonable panic provoked by Bioware's two recent demos has proved quite justified with hindsight.

Which I guess means they were good demos

[deuce985]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There's also a problem in that you really only get one first impression. If we show you a feature that's not really done, and part of it doesn't look great - even if we show you that feature two months later and it looks significantly better, there's a chance that whatever your perception was of the feature initially is going to colour how you see it.

Just to echo John's perspective...

There are people (foolishly) raging over the XCOM demo because it was just the tutorial. Therefore, the ENTIRE game MUST be hand holding and railroaded linear missions.

This kinda rings true with what you and John said. You have to be careful on the dialogue, what you show, and when.

The XCOM demo you mentioned is an excellent example. I hold to the belief that demos do nothing but hurt sales for a game. People always get the wrong impressions with demos. You can look at Dragon Age 2 as an example too. IMO, they're a bad form of marketing. You risk the potential at losing pre-orders because somebody has an impression in their head of what they expect and the demo shows something different. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the right impressions either and demos can often cloud people's judgment on games. 

They represent so little of the final product. It's hard to get a piece of a game in a demo without changing some viewpoints on what to expect. I remember people complaining about DA2 demo despite never playing DAO. I remember one of my friends said mentioned he though it was nothing more than a hack'n'slash game like God of War. That's what his initial thought was from the demo...I had to explain to him it was nothing like that.

Modifié par deuce985, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:37 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Yeah, but the point of any demo/tutorial is to reflect something close to the actual experience which the player will be receiving. Otherwise, what is the point?

The point of the XCOM demo is to give you an idea on how the game plays. The XCOM demo does this just fine. It had me going "CRAP IT'S STILL TWO WEEKS AWAY!"

They don't give you access to everything, because then they might as well just give you the game. Especially since it's clear to see that all they did for the demo was have the game exit once you get to the "open play" part.

Another game that I absolute love is Jagged Alliance 2, which had a demo which was just one tactical mission. It completely ignores the ultimately REALLY KICKASS campaign mode which turned out to just be an amazingly awesome surprise once I actually played the full game.


I think the angst over the XCOM demo is more "Players wanted more" in that of course they want more. More is always better. I'd love for the demo to be the full game too. That it had players wanting more is probably a good thing.

[hexaligned]

I like the way the guys and gals over at Trion are handling giving out info on the Rift expansion actually. Informal sit down by the devs, where they show off and explain changes to the game, while taking questions from a live feed. Now that I think about it I think Bioware did the same thing for DAO, I hope they bring it back.

Modifié par relhart, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:50 .

[Icinix]

deuce985 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There's also a problem in that you really only get one first impression. If we show you a feature that's not really done, and part of it doesn't look great - even if we show you that feature two months later and it looks significantly better, there's a chance that whatever your perception was of the feature initially is going to colour how you see it.

Just to echo John's perspective...

There are people (foolishly) raging over the XCOM demo because it was just the tutorial. Therefore, the ENTIRE game MUST be hand holding and railroaded linear missions.

This kinda rings true with what you and John said. You have to be careful on the dialogue, what you show, and when.

The XCOM demo you mentioned is an excellent example. I hold to the belief that demos do nothing but hurt sales for a game. People always get the wrong impressions with demos. You can look at Dragon Age 2 as an example too. IMO, they're a bad form of marketing. You risk the potential at losing pre-orders because somebody has an impression in their head of what they expect and the demo shows something different. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the right impressions either and demos can often cloud people's judgment on games. 

They represent so little of the final product. It's hard to get a piece of a game in a demo without changing some viewpoints on what to expect. I remember people complaining about DA2 demo despite never playing DAO. I remember one of my friends said mentioned he though it was nothing more than a hack'n'slash game like God of War. That's what his initial thought was from the demo...I had to explain to him it was nothing like that.

I actually thought the DA2 demo was very accurate representation of the final game.

Indeed there was very little that changed between the demo and the final game.

[LinksOcarina]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

One thing I would appreciate at an appropriate (no doubt far off) point is a full runthrough of a conversation. That's the key part of the game for me, but it usually gets neglected in preview stuff in favour of combat or pretty but non-interactive cinematics

This would be terrific.  I would love some sort of tutorial on how the dialogue system works.

Another good example, that we we see the wheel in action, we see maybe a few variants in a conversation, companion interaction/reactions, and so forth. And it would be all about the dialouge, nothing else. 

And I am sure there is a side quest or early story mission you can use to demonstrate it.

[LinksOcarina]

Icinix wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There's also a problem in that you really only get one first impression. If we show you a feature that's not really done, and part of it doesn't look great - even if we show you that feature two months later and it looks significantly better, there's a chance that whatever your perception was of the feature initially is going to colour how you see it.

Just to echo John's perspective...

There are people (foolishly) raging over the XCOM demo because it was just the tutorial. Therefore, the ENTIRE game MUST be hand holding and railroaded linear missions.

This kinda rings true with what you and John said. You have to be careful on the dialogue, what you show, and when.

The XCOM demo you mentioned is an excellent example. I hold to the belief that demos do nothing but hurt sales for a game. People always get the wrong impressions with demos. You can look at Dragon Age 2 as an example too. IMO, they're a bad form of marketing. You risk the potential at losing pre-orders because somebody has an impression in their head of what they expect and the demo shows something different. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the right impressions either and demos can often cloud people's judgment on games. 

They represent so little of the final product. It's hard to get a piece of a game in a demo without changing some viewpoints on what to expect. I remember people complaining about DA2 demo despite never playing DAO. I remember one of my friends said mentioned he though it was nothing more than a hack'n'slash game like God of War. That's what his initial thought was from the demo...I had to explain to him it was nothing like that.

I actually thought the DA2 demo was very accurate representation of the final game.

Indeed there was very little that changed between the demo and the final game.

I would agree with this too, which does bring up a question on what a good demo is, which is something that we rarely see.

Honestly, a good demo would follow the model of Kingdoms of Amalur, how they gave you an hour of free play to just mess around in the first few areas, get a feel for combat, quests, and had nothing locked except the main story. Perhaps something like that, not just a tutorial but a full on mission hub (maybe the first hour of the game to get us aquainted) with the complete package there would be the best way to go.

At least, that to me makes it more of a demo than just a cut off piece of the game. That way, we experience what the game offers without restriction, and can experiment that way. Kind of like the Mass Effect 3 multiplayer in that regard. The only tweak would be maybe keeping the demo as a save game.

[Cutlass Jack]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The point of the XCOM demo is to give you an idea on how the game plays. The XCOM demo does this just fine. It had me going "CRAP IT'S STILL TWO WEEKS AWAY!"

This would be my exact reaction to the XCOM demo.

In fact the demo cemented in me my desire to pre-order that game. I was on the fence due to some other modern reboots that lost the heart of what I loved about the original game. Like that other XCOM reboot that made it some 50's FPS. The demo showed me that what I wanted from the game was there in spades gameplay wise.

Went from being on the fence about it, to not caring that Dishonored is coming out the same day.

As for the DA2 demo...well in my opinion it was the crappiest 10 minutes of the game, so if someone enjoyed that, then they should be okay with the rest of it.

LinksOcarina wrote...

Honestly, a good demo would follow the model of Kingdoms of Amalur, how they gave you an hour of free play to just mess around in the first few areas, get a feel for combat, quests, and had nothing locked except the main story. Perhaps something like that, not just a tutorial but a full on mission hub (maybe the first hour of the game to get us aquainted) with the complete package there would be the best way to go.

Interesting. Because the KoA demo made me decide not to buy the game until it went on sale for under half price. It felt like everything I ever played before and not very exciting. I was really undwerwhelmed. That said, I recently did pick it up when it hit that sale point, and it turned out I enjoyed it quite a bit once I got deeper into it.

But at least that demo unlocked things in Mass Effect and KoA when I eventually got around to it.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[LinksOcarina]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The point of the XCOM demo is to give you an idea on how the game plays. The XCOM demo does this just fine. It had me going "CRAP IT'S STILL TWO WEEKS AWAY!"

This would be my exact reaction to the XCOM demo.

In fact the demo cemented in me my desire to pre-order that game. I was on the fence due to some other modern reboots that lost the heart of what I loved about the original game. Like that other XCOM reboot that made it some 50's FPS. The demo showed me that what I wanted from the game was there in spades gameplay wise.

Went from being on the fence about it, to not caring that Dishonored is coming out the same day.

As for the DA2 demo...well in my opinion it was the crappiest 10 minutes of the game, so if someone enjoyed that, then they should be okay with the rest of it.

LinksOcarina wrote...

Honestly, a good demo would follow the model of Kingdoms of Amalur, how they gave you an hour of free play to just mess around in the first few areas, get a feel for combat, quests, and had nothing locked except the main story. Perhaps something like that, not just a tutorial but a full on mission hub (maybe the first hour of the game to get us aquainted) with the complete package there would be the best way to go.

Interesting. Because the KoA demo made me decide not to buy the game until it went on sale for under half price. It felt like everything I ever played before and not very exciting. I was really undwerwhelmed. That said, I recently did pick it up when it hit that sale point, and it turned out I enjoyed it quite a bit once I got deeper into it.

But at least that demo unlocked things in Mass Effect and KoA when I eventually got around to it.

To be fair though, the KoA demo did do it's job correctly then, since it gave you the taste of what to expect. And it seemed to work out fine. I was on the fence with the game and when I played the demo, I was actually impressed, even though it felt like a single player MMO. And when I did my official review, it gave me a good bedrock to start with on it.

Another example would be Dead Rising 2, which had a demo that was a side story, and allowed you to keep upgrades from level 1-5. It was also a paid demo which I didn't like, but there is a possability a little side adventure right there that is a self-contained game, you can  give out for free, have people level up characters early on and so forth. So there is options to make a better demo, if its decided to go that route, and to make it a strong impression. And if people don't like it, they then know what to expect. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:17 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Icinix wrote...

I actually thought the DA2 demo was very accurate representation of the final game.

Indeed there was very little that changed between the demo and the final game.

The documentation did.

When playing the demo, I had no idea what the conversation icons meant.  When playing the game, I had short descriptions which helped quite a lot.