136 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Sidney wrote...

As for shallow, oh please. The "we wanrt pretty elves that look like the LoTR movies" types aren't looking for depth. They want a sterotype. In fact the biggest problem with the elven protagonists in DAO is that they look humna and for 99% of the time they play exactly like a human.

Actually if Elves started out as ugly creatures I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem I have is that they are supposed to be attractive in the lore for the game.

[GipsyDangeresque]

That's subjective. You don't really get to assume what people find generally attractive in Thedas will match preconceived notions of beauty in the modern world or even any example of beauty ever recorded in Human history.

It's a really simple path of logic to follow that negates the argument completely:
1) In Thedas, Humans generally find Elves to be attractive.
2) Elves are designed like the are in DA2, i.e. the slender bodies, long necks and pronounced nose-bridge and brow
3) As inferred from the two previous statements being true, those qualities are considered incredibly attractive in Thedas.

Done.

You're just going to have to do the work to roleplay your character that way, or else have them be an outlier of the norm, a human that does not find such features attractive even though most others do.

Modifié par Atemeus, 04 novembre 2012 - 02:59 .

[cindercatz]

That doesn't work. It creates inherent disonance, loss of immersion. If lore says a character type is attractive to most humans, then you as a human shouldn't have to roleplay that natural attraction against your own instinct. Even if you're playing another species, there's still that mental disconnect when you get into areas that should be emotional, automatic as the player.

[Gileadan]

Atemeus wrote...

It's a really simple path of logic to follow that negates the argument completely:
1) In Thedas, Humans generally find Elves to be attractive.
2) Elves are designed like the are in DA2, i.e. the slender bodies, long necks and pronounced nose-bridge and brow
3) As inferred from the two previous statements being true, those qualities are considered incredibly attractive in Thedas.

Done.

You're just going to have to do the work to roleplay your character that way, or else have them be an outlier of the norm, a human that does not find such features attractive even though most others do.

I think that's straw-grabbing at its finest.

By that logic, Morrigan, Leliana, Alistair and Anders were ugly ducklings then? Their necks way too short, their ears too small, their bodies too fat, and so on...  the differences between DA2-elves and humans are so obvious that if DA2-elves were the epitome of beauty to humans, how would said humans ever find another human attractive?

Also, who would a game developer create such a disconnect between player and character by arbitrarily declaring that the idea of beauty in the game's setting is vastly different from the real world?

[GipsyDangeresque]

I said those qualities are logically deduced to be incredibly attractive in Thedas, not EXCLUSIVELY attractive, which seems to be the conclusion you randomly decided to jump to.

As for the disconnect... it's a matter of taste. I don't have a problem with the elf design. Also, I think it's interesting that it challenges some players. That's a good thing, stepping out of bounds and taking risks that separate Thedas from what we're accustomed to in the real world. It's a good step torwards making people challenge their preconceptions about beauty, although it's still got nothing on romancing Garrus.

(Now, even I can concede that both Human [but Elf more often] minor NPCs often had some incredibly screwed up face meshes in relation to my tastes, in DA2. You can compare their faces to main characters like Merrill and Athenriel and just see where they deviated from the kind of design goal they had. That's not because of the design choice, that's someone screwing up in the implementation of their design, kind of like wrinkly monster witch hands on Bethany.)

Modifié par Atemeus, 04 novembre 2012 - 03:43 .

[Gileadan]

Atemeus wrote...

I said those qualities are logically deduced to be incredibly attractive in Thedas, not EXCLUSIVELY attractive, which seems to be the conclusion you randomly decided to jump to.

I did not say "exclusively" either, but if DA2-elves are found "incredibly" attractive in Thedas, then humans - who don't tend to look so emaciated, don't have giraffe-necks or sharkfin-noses - will always be second rate, since they lack all the attributes that are the biggest visual difference between DA2-elves and humans.

It comes down to personal taste. Obviously *some* people find them attractive as any DA2-elf related thread can prove. Athenril doesn't look bad, true. But is that because of her ears and nose or despite of them?

[ladyofpayne]

[GodWood]

I don't know why people always say Athrenil was attractive. Her head was freakishly disproportionate to the rest of her body.

[Sol Downer]

GodWood wrote...

I don't know why people always say Athrenil was attractive. Her head was freakishly disproportionate to the rest of her body.

Like the picture above this post?

[Vanilka]

While I respect everybody's opinion, I sincerely don't understand why elves being "short humans with pointy ears" is such a problem. As somebody has already mentioned, I haven't heard anyone complaining about dwarfs being short and stocky humans, maybe with a fancy beard here and there. Would anyone be so kind as to explain that to me, please?

Personally, I don't think that elves look that similar to humans, but maybe it's just me. I can tell an elf in DA:O when I see one, ears or not. Not only they are shorter, more delicate and have those pointy ears, they have almond eyes, triangular faces and generally more sharper features. I was pretty happy with how elves turned out in DA:O. I see no reason to suddenly make elves radically different. DAII design is simply killing me. The nose is just... no. Moreover, it stops elves from having more distinct features, in my opinion - not from humans, but from each other. Everybody has almost the same damn kind of nose. Their heads are too big in comparison with the neck and the rest of the body. Speaking of which, elven women look almost child-like. Of course, there are decent-looking elves. I can't complain about Fenris, Athenril or Lia, for instance, but am generally unhappy with how DAII turned out for elves.

I think the change wouldn't hurt so much if DA:O had started with the second game's design. But it didn't. So, for the 3rd game we are to what? Prepare to get used to another change in how elves are supposed to look like? And if that doesn't work again, then another? I sort of wish they would have done it from the start if they had wanted to make elves "unique". Then I wouldn't complain about losing the elves I've come to love in DA:O; elves that are, in my humble opinion, already different enough.

With all that said, I hope DAIII elves will look more like those of DA:O, even if they won't look the same. I don't think it would be a bad idea to keep some of DAII features, such as slightly larger ears and eyes (which, however, can already be achieved with DA:O toolset). And, please, please, could we stop that no-shoes nonsense? Have you ever tried walking, let alone running, outside while wearing no shoes? The only thing that's good for is to injure yourself. Which is a problem, especially if you're a Dalish hunter that spends their time running through forests full of sharp stones, branches, possibly poisonous flowers and animals, animal bones and whatnot. I see no reason for elves to suddenly stop wearing them when all the elves in DA:O had them. What's the point?

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 04 novembre 2012 - 07:06 .

[L. Han]

A new design is to be expected. The art team has to do something at some point. Might as well design or redesign fashion and races.

[LinksLove]

The elf design for DAII is great:


The problem was in how it was executed. Only the main elves, like Merril, Fenris and a few others had a lot of effort put into them and were nicely polished. A few elves had some effort and too many had the absolute minimum. But DAII was kind of a rushed game, so hopefully the elves in DAIII will be better be default, simply for having more time. 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Han Shot First wrote...

Sidney wrote...

As for shallow, oh please. The "we wanrt pretty elves that look like the LoTR movies" types aren't looking for depth. They want a sterotype. In fact the biggest problem with the elven protagonists in DAO is that they look humna and for 99% of the time they play exactly like a human.

Actually if Elves started out as ugly creatures I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem I have is that they are supposed to be attractive in the lore for the game.

Again failing to understand subjectivity. 

Bioware can never create an appearence that 100% of players will find attractive, **** the lore itself is subjective its not the word of god that elves are generally attractive, only the opinion of that worlds historians. 

The artists have to do what they feel is right and in this case I like their choice.  Get over yourself speaking as if your opinion is fact.  Naturally if Thedas was a real place not everyone who lived their would think elves are attractive, especially not in an age of so much racism.  So congrats you can be one of those people. 

[Han Shot First]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Sidney wrote...

As for shallow, oh please. The "we wanrt pretty elves that look like the LoTR movies" types aren't looking for depth. They want a sterotype. In fact the biggest problem with the elven protagonists in DAO is that they look humna and for 99% of the time they play exactly like a human.

Actually if Elves started out as ugly creatures I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem I have is that they are supposed to be attractive in the lore for the game.

Again failing to understand subjectivity. 

Bioware can never create an appearence that 100% of players will find attractive, **** the lore itself is subjective its not the word of god that elves are generally attractive, only the opinion of that worlds historians. 

The artists have to do what they feel is right and in this case I like their choice.  Get over yourself speaking as if your opinion is fact.  Naturally if Thedas was a real place not everyone who lived their would think elves are attractive, especially not in an age of so much racism.  So congrats you can be one of those people. 

I don't think there is anything subjective about describing this lore breaking monstrosity as unattractive:






If I were to repost that image on any other forum and ask people to rate its appearance, I'm positive the most common replies would be "WOULD NOT BANG" and "KILL IT WITH FIRE." 

On a more serious note, the DA2 Elf designs were simply awful. By the way, there is no reason to take a difference of opinion on the appearance of fictional characters in a game as a personal affront.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 05 novembre 2012 - 06:40 .

[Arppis]

Humans with longer ears is just stupid. So DA2 should be it. No matter what codex says, they should have unique looks and don't neccessarily appeal to human eyes.

And just like there is ugly humans, there SHOULD BE ugly elves.

Modifié par Arppis, 05 novembre 2012 - 09:05 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Han Shot First wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Sidney wrote...

As for shallow, oh please. The "we wanrt pretty elves that look like the LoTR movies" types aren't looking for depth. They want a sterotype. In fact the biggest problem with the elven protagonists in DAO is that they look humna and for 99% of the time they play exactly like a human.

Actually if Elves started out as ugly creatures I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem I have is that they are supposed to be attractive in the lore for the game.

Again failing to understand subjectivity. 

Bioware can never create an appearence that 100% of players will find attractive, **** the lore itself is subjective its not the word of god that elves are generally attractive, only the opinion of that worlds historians. 

The artists have to do what they feel is right and in this case I like their choice.  Get over yourself speaking as if your opinion is fact.  Naturally if Thedas was a real place not everyone who lived their would think elves are attractive, especially not in an age of so much racism.  So congrats you can be one of those people. 

I don't think there is anything subjective about describing this lore breaking monstrosity as unattractive:






If I were to repost that image on any other forum and ask people to rate its appearance, I'm positive the most common replies would be "WOULD NOT BANG" and "KILL IT WITH FIRE." 

On a more serious note, the DA2 Elf designs were simply awful. By the way, there is no reason to take a difference of opinion on the appearance of fictional characters in a game as a personal affront.

Choosing the single worst example of what elves looked like in DA2 isn't helping your argument at all in my eyes dude.  For starters that image is blatantly photoshopped, her cheek gaunt wasnt that rediculous, second she was already the uglist elf in the game and she was supposed to be she was an old malnurished slave (and the stupid makeup salted that wound, i modded her appearence personally). 

If your going to try use an example to claim they are all ugly use a more appropriate one. 

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 05 novembre 2012 - 09:26 .

[Nerevar-as]

Arppis wrote...

Humans with longer ears is just stupid. So DA2 should be it. No matter what codex says, they should have unique looks and don't neccessarily appeal to human eyes.

And just like there is ugly humans, there SHOULD BE ugly elves.

Humans with donkey ears and a straight forehead-nose line (excluding Fenris and Merrill - surprise!) is even more stupid. And Codex said they appealed to human eyes, so if they went into uncanny valley it should be in a way that wasn´t repulsive and made most people think they had some growing disorder. The only moment I thought Hawke´s VA nailed it was in that quest qith the psycho who killed elf children. Hawke´s incredulity at his reasons echoed my own perfectly.

Some are so obsessed with "unique" looks that they care more for that than the result in itself. DA:O elves worked because of the twist to how they are traditionally represented, and their look had nothing to do with it. In fact, I doubt many people would have bought the City Elf Origin with DA2 elves.

[Salaya]

Elves looked like monsters in DA2 to me. My main problem was the big, plain nose. I found that really disgusting, and I honestly doubt that the "announced" mix between both elve's design could bring anything good. I wish the "humans with pointy ears" could come back.

[Arppis]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Humans with longer ears is just stupid. So DA2 should be it. No matter what codex says, they should have unique looks and don't neccessarily appeal to human eyes.

And just like there is ugly humans, there SHOULD BE ugly elves.

Humans with donkey ears and a straight forehead-nose line (excluding Fenris and Merrill - surprise!) is even more stupid. And Codex said they appealed to human eyes, so if they went into uncanny valley it should be in a way that wasn´t repulsive and made most people think they had some growing disorder. The only moment I thought Hawke´s VA nailed it was in that quest qith the psycho who killed elf children. Hawke´s incredulity at his reasons echoed my own perfectly.

Some are so obsessed with "unique" looks that they care more for that than the result in itself. DA:O elves worked because of the twist to how they are traditionally represented, and their look had nothing to do with it. In fact, I doubt many people would have bought the City Elf Origin with DA2 elves.

Unique looks bring some believiability to the game. Humans with long ears is just boring design choice, REALLY. It doesn't work (for me, but people can dissagree like you are here). And see, you did like Fenris and Merrill, so Codex was right. They still look appealing.

So there you go.

[ledod]

I did appreciate that Elves in DA: 2 looked like a sentient species, distinct from humans. Often, Elves look merely like waifish humans with pointed ears. Given that they are a different species from humans, they shouldn't be held to the same standard of beauty/normalcy as the average human.

[Arppis]

ledod wrote...

I did appreciate that Elves in DA: 2 looked like a sentient species, distinct from humans. Often, Elves look merely like waifish humans with pointed ears. Given that they are a different species from humans, they shouldn't be held to the same standard of beauty/normalcy as the average human.

And this, sadly most people "stick horse ride" the codex entry too much. They should just take it like this: They can be appealing to humans.

[Imp of the Perverse]

Kingroxas wrote...

Like This? 

That'd have my vote. If I play Skyrim again I'm going to have to install that. For DA, I think the dark elves in that mod are maybe a bit too alien, the high elves too to a lesser extent. The wood elves are about right:



Looking at that picture and comparing it to the DA2 elf face a few comments up, I think I'd like it if DA3 went with a less cartoonish art style than DA2 did.

Modifié par Imp of the Perverse, 05 novembre 2012 - 11:46 .

[Arppis]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

Kingroxas wrote...

Like This? 

That'd have my vote. If I play Skyrim again I'm going to have to install that. For DA, I think the dark elves in that mod are maybe a bit too alien, the high elves too to a lesser extent. The wood elves are about right:



Looking at that picture and comparing it to the DA2 elf face a few comments up, I think I'd like it if DA3 went with a less cartoonish art style than DA2 did.

You know, I kinda wish they would go to that cartoon territory a bit more. But this time... do it properly and make it look more stylised. Instead of some bad compromise between realism and cartoonish look.

[Imp of the Perverse]

Arppis wrote...

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

Kingroxas wrote...

Like This? 

That'd have my vote. If I play Skyrim again I'm going to have to install that. For DA, I think the dark elves in that mod are maybe a bit too alien, the high elves too to a lesser extent. The wood elves are about right:



Looking at that picture and comparing it to the DA2 elf face a few comments up, I think I'd like it if DA3 went with a less cartoonish art style than DA2 did.

You know, I kinda wish they would go to that cartoon territory a bit more. But this time... do it properly and make it look more stylised. Instead of some bad compromise between realism and cartoonish look.

Sort of like Borderlands? I do like the way those games look, I also liked most of DA2 for that matter (that particular elf's face was a real low point, most of it was a lot better.) Looking at some of the DA3 concept art though, particularly this picture:



it reminded me of the atmoshere DAO had, which was pretty distinct. I'd rather see an improved version of DAO's more realistic approach. Borderlands' look fits that game, it's sort of tongue in cheek and intentionally bizarre, but Dragon Age seems to take itself a bit more seriously, so realism fits it better.

[The Elder King]

Salaya wrote...

Elves looked like monsters in DA2 to me. My main problem was the big, plain nose. I found that really disgusting, and I honestly doubt that the "announced" mix between both elve's design could bring anything good. I wish the "humans with pointy ears" could come back.

I didn't like DA2 elves, but the screenshots of DAO elves with the mod that imported the DA2 elves facial features in DAO (posted in the second or third page of this thread) are great, in my opinion. I wouldn't have much problem with those elves.