398 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Bester76 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Do you write your stories offering the reader the ability to completely shape the outcome?

Nothing offers that, including BW games.

"Experience the beginning, middle and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome."

www.masseffect.com/about/story/

This must be your first BioWare game, so I'll inform you that BW games have never done this, and that if you had expectations otherwise then I have no sympathy there. Marketing lies on the other hand, like promising the rachni have huge consequences or no ABC ending, are rather indefensible. But you simply don't know how games work if you expected to completely shape the story.

[AlanC9]

futurepixels wrote...

- Lack of ending variety.

This one always surprises me. Whenever we have an ME4 thread the standard complaint is that the endings are so different from one another that Bio will have trouble making a sequel. So the endings are simultaneously too different and too much the same?

[Ticonderoga117]

CronoDragoon wrote...
This must be your first BioWare game, so I'll inform you that BW games have never done this, and that if you had expectations otherwise then I have no sympathy there. Marketing lies on the other hand, like promising the rachni have huge consequences or no ABC ending, are rather indefensible. But you simply don't know how games work if you expected to completely shape the story.

Maybe not completely, but the Witcher 2 does it, and the same situation can be applied to ME3.

[Cigarette Smoking Man]

Oh wowzies, an entire thread dedicated to a very vocal minority of people who probably got off on trolling people for their own limp wristed stupidity when the endings dropped and they hated it, who now come here to whine and moan and groan about all the negativity surrounding something they like. As though people need to stop or the world is going to stop spinning.

You like it so much? Don't get butthurt when someone else doesn't. It's that simple. Grow a thicker skin and, since so many apparently use the qualifier of sickened behavior or adulthood as covers for themselves, don't engage it.

Or engage it, since the point of all this trolling and reverse trolling and the like has been transparent as day since the very get go. People are going to disagree with you. Deal with it.

[CronoDragoon]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Pretty sure people made it their mission to collapse Bioware if their demands were not met, you can see this by all the insane and extreme negativity that has been spread around by them, and other such actions as creating threads detailing how to get your money back that is, bizzarely, full of praise, and creating movements telling people to "Hold the wallet" and such things. The Mass Effect 3 ending has even been taken to the BBB and the Retake movement forced a charity to stop accepting donations from them and to change it's rules to make sure the charity is never put in a situation like that again.

Even just above me you can see people trying to justify why it's not disgusting to demand that that writers change their work, and for this past few months you've been able to see people openly mocking Bioware when they said they respected the decisions of the people who spent 8 years of their lives on Mass Effect to put bread on the table, by reducing that to a silly "artistic integrity" line.

It's disgusting.

Collpase BioWare through bad word of mouth and their power as a consumer to stop buying BW stuff. I don't agree with doing either things but they are well within their rights as a consumer to do so. There's nothing disgusting about that. Insulting and threatening BW employees is different and was never a central part of Retake.

And the fans did not start the "artistic integrity" thing. Ray said that in his message. It was effectively a shield, a way to avoid justifying their work at all. It was a cop-out. I do not believe artists should be forced to change their work to accede the general public, but neither do I believe that artistic integrity protects writers from criticism.

[Kamfrenchie]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You don't think people were demanding? I'm pretty sure the Retake movement is the definition of demanding.

Demand implies a consequence if demands are not met. There was no consequence that Retake could bring into effect that wasn't already inherent in the demands themselves. If the semantics of it is your only problem then fair enough, but I don't find anything disgusting about the idea of Retake itself - separated from what some unbalanced people decided to do which was disgusting.

Pretty sure people made it their mission to collapse Bioware if their demands were not met, you can see this by all the insane and extreme negativity that has been spread around by them, and other such actions as creating threads detailing how to get your money back that is, bizzarely, full of praise, and creating movements telling people to "Hold the wallet" and such things. The Mass Effect 3 ending has even been taken to the BBB and the Retake movement forced a charity to stop accepting donations from them and to change it's rules to make sure the charity is never put in a situation like that again.

Even just above me you can see people trying to justify why it's not disgusting to demand that that writers change their work, and for this past few months you've been able to see people openly mocking Bioware when they said they respected the decisions of the people who spent 8 years of their lives on Mass Effect to put bread on the table, by reducing that to a silly "artistic integrity" line.

It's disgusting.

what's wrong with telling dissatisfied customers how to get their money back ? Also, customers are free to tell their friends about their opinion on a game company, even if said company lied in a disgusting way.

There was no grave repercussion for ME3 being reported, but if the report was deemed valid it's bioware fault for lying.

If you promise X attributes in your product but they aren't present, you are guilty of false advertising. Consumer protection is important.
Note that had bioware apologized for their lies the reaction would have been much less hostile. Remeber the backlash for sword of the stars 2 and Deus ex HR ? Probably not, because the devs apologized for the things they screwed up, and the gamers forgave them.


The rest of your post is appeal to emotion, not actual argument.  Remember sherlock holmes dying was changed because of massive fan outcry, this isn't unprecendented.

Artist need to please their audience, it's as simple as that. If you paid for it and it's not what you were promised, you have a right to complain. If bioware don't want to be asked to change things, they shouldn't advertised their game on player choice and consequences then disregard them

[CronoDragoon]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
This must be your first BioWare game, so I'll inform you that BW games have never done this, and that if you had expectations otherwise then I have no sympathy there. Marketing lies on the other hand, like promising the rachni have huge consequences or no ABC ending, are rather indefensible. But you simply don't know how games work if you expected to completely shape the story.

Maybe not completely, but the Witcher 2 does it, and the same situation can be applied to ME3.

The Witcher 2 has a few big choices, but there's overall less customization than Mass Effect. The protagonist is set in personality,looks, gender, and sexual orientation, Triss is the canon LI, etc.

I'd also point out that although The Witcher 2's second act deviates significantly, this is compensated by the entire game being much shorter than Mass Effect.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:47 .

[Ticonderoga117]

CronoDragoon wrote...
The Witcher 2 has a few big choices, but there's overall less customization than Mass Effect. The protagonist is set in personality,looks, gender, and sexual orientation, Triss is the canon LI, etc.

I'd also point out that although The Witcher 2's second act deviates significantly, this is compensated by the entire game being much shorter than Mass Effect.

I would take a shorter game that actually cares about whether you did something, then Mass Effect's "Meh, it doesn't matter if you did this big thing, we'll render it to meaninglessness" any day.

[Kamfrenchie]

AlanC9 wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

- Lack of ending variety.

This one always surprises me. Whenever we have an ME4 thread the standard complaint is that the endings are so different from one another that Bio will have trouble making a sequel. So the endings are simultaneously too different and too much the same?

by doing different degrees of victory instead of those 3 odd choices (control was shown as obviously impossible before the end, and synthesis is just incoherent with the setting and space magic)

It could very well be doable. Have your actions impact the shape of a few planets... Say if you screw up in a mission to help Thessia, in ME4 the Thessia hub is full of ruins and slowly reconstructing instead of being a florishing planet. So you'd have much more quest regarding mercenaries and pirates since the armies and police have been too weakened to counter them all. And missions to find the bodies of MIA soldiers

On the other hand, if you did well, say you could have Palaven hold up well and "flourish" after the war, so you'd have more choices in shops, quests more about a few corrupt persons, recovering a high tech prototypes etc.


Ofc it would require a rewriting of ME3, but here you go. There didn't need to be ending that lead to completely uber different universes, just various levels of victory with impact on several key locations, like in fallout.

[CaIIisto]

CronoDragoon wrote...

This must be your first BioWare game, so I'll inform you that BW games have never done this, and that if you had expectations otherwise then I have no sympathy there. Marketing lies on the other hand, like promising the rachni have huge consequences or no ABC ending, are rather indefensible. But you simply don't know how games work if you expected to completely shape the story.

No, I didn't completely expect to shape the story. However, I would still have expected something other than a game where I can make as many decisions as I like, only for them not to matter in the face of a presented ABCD ending.

Either way - the delivered game wasn't as advertised and people complained. Hold the front page....

I'm afraid I have far more sympathy for those that played the game and felt disappointed than those that lied about what they were going to be able to deliver.

[DaBigDragon]

Gogzilla wrote...

 
I can only roll my eyes as i read one forum thread after the other.

This. Exactly this. Almost 7 months later and people are still going on and on and on and on.......

Enough already. We get it. You don't like the ending. That doesn't mean you can slag or disrespect the people who made it with personal attacks that serve no purpose other than to satiate your feelings that they somehow "deserve punishment" for making part of a video game that you did not agree with. They are human just like you and everyone else.

This also does not mean you can do the same to the people who liked the original endings and the EC endings.

Guess what? There are people out there that were OK with the endings as they were and the EC endings and no amount of whining and complaining on here is going to change that or their opinions.

Even today with the announcement of the trilogy pack coming out. There's already negativity showing up in that thread for NO OTHER REASON other than to be a Debbie-Downer:

"No gameplay changes? Why bother...
"
"Decisions have consequences? Nice joke there."
"False advertising is bad, mk?
At the very least that doesn't apply to ME3  AT ALL, when it should apply the MOST."


....SERIOUSLY?

Granted those comments aren't personal attacks, but there are still MORE than enough of topics that include complaining about the ending in these forums.

So OP, yes, there is massive negativity on these forums, much more than I've seen on other forums.

[Clayless]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Collpase BioWare through bad word of mouth and their power as a consumer to stop buying BW stuff. I don't agree with doing either things but they are well within their rights as a consumer to do so. There's nothing disgusting about that. Insulting and threatening BW employees is different and was never a central part of Retake.

And the fans did not start the "artistic integrity" thing. Ray said that in his message. It was effectively a shield, a way to avoid justifying their work at all. It was a cop-out. I do not believe artists should be forced to change their work to accede the general public, but neither do I believe that artistic integrity protects writers from criticism.

There's a difference from criticism and demanding that they change their work. Seems like you think I'm saying people criticising Bioware is bad, when I'm actually saying people demanding Bioware, and well all writers really, is disgusting.

Like you might have noticed on this page there's a guy trying to get me to respond to him, he's implied such things as Bioware having to apologise (for what?), that art isn't subjective and that it's within the consumers right to demand what artists do, and that there isn't many different endings (which is just plain untrue, as there are many differences in peoples games by the end). Lies and delusions to try and justify insane entitled ramblings.

While this is more to do with the topic OP, I tend to go out of my way to point out all of this to the worse ones and watch them squirm, as 6 months of delusions isn't healthy for anyone, especially if they're actively trying to convince others of their delusions.

Just to mention you, Crono, don't seem that bad and just seem to generally think that criticising a work isn't disgusting, which is just a bit of a misunderstanding of my point (demanding they change it, not just plain old criticising).

[Kamfrenchie]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Collpase BioWare through bad word of mouth and their power as a consumer to stop buying BW stuff. I don't agree with doing either things but they are well within their rights as a consumer to do so. There's nothing disgusting about that. Insulting and threatening BW employees is different and was never a central part of Retake.

And the fans did not start the "artistic integrity" thing. Ray said that in his message. It was effectively a shield, a way to avoid justifying their work at all. It was a cop-out. I do not believe artists should be forced to change their work to accede the general public, but neither do I believe that artistic integrity protects writers from criticism.

There's a difference from criticism and demanding that they change their work. Seems like you think I'm saying people criticising Bioware is bad, when I'm actually saying people demanding Bioware, and well all writers really, is disgusting.

Like you might have noticed on this page there's a guy trying to get me to respond to him, he's implied such things as Bioware having to apologise (for what?), that art isn't subjective and that it's within the consumers right to demand what artists do, and that there isn't many different endings (which is just plain untrue, as there are many differences in peoples games by the end). Lies and delusions to try and justify insane entitled ramblings.

While this is more to do with the topic OP, I tend to go out of my way to point out all of this to the worse ones and watch them squirm, as 6 months of delusions isn't healthy for anyone, especially if they're actively trying to convince others of their delusions.

Just to mention you, Crono, don't seem that bad and just seem to generally think that criticising a work isn't disgusting, which is just a bit of a misunderstanding of my point (demanding they change it, not just plain old criticising).

Bioware lied on the content of the game, plain and simple. (the rachni have huge consequences, remember ?) They objectively did at least a few things wrong. Then they acted as if nothing was their fault etc. Ofc there was a backlash. Had they at least recognize they didn't deliver what was promised, the backlash would have been much smaller.

There are effectively 4 different endings. Well, i'll be generous and give you that bad destroy and control also count, so that's 6. We're still far from what was advertised, or from something like the fallout serie.

If you want to count every little choice in the fetch quest department to lead to a different ending, then skyrim has millions of ending and should use that as a marketing slogan ?


Why such a despise for me ? I didn't insult you or anything, even though you did.


Customers have a certain right to impact the content. If i ask pay an artist to draw me cute kittens playing and he later give me a picture of dead kittens, I feel like I have the right to complain don't you ? (ofc exagerrated example, but it makes things clear)

[macrocarl]

I really enjoyed the endings pre and post EC. And while I respect the different opinions on the forum, the general negativity gets super old. Lots of misconceptions about what was happening in the game and lots of dead horse beatings in most of the threads. In short, it's a bummer.

[macrocarl]

Also people not getting over BW 'lying' and generally misusing/ overusing super dramatic phrases makes me come by here less and less.

[Kamfrenchie]

macrocarl wrote...

Also people not getting over BW 'lying' and generally misusing/ overusing super dramatic phrases makes me come by here less and less.

It'd be easier to get over it if they apologized for it.

Btw, aren't you worried by the fact they lied to you on a number of things ? Sure, you like the game, but can you trust bioware ?

[Kamfrenchie]

DaBigDragon wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

 
I can only roll my eyes as i read one forum thread after the other.

This. Exactly this. Almost 7 months later and people are still going on and on and on and on.......

Enough already. We get it. You don't like the ending. That doesn't mean you can slag or disrespect the people who made it with personal attacks that serve no purpose other than to satiate your feelings that they somehow "deserve punishment" for making part of a video game that you did not agree with. They are human just like you and everyone else.

This also does not mean you can do the same to the people who liked the original endings and the EC endings.

Guess what? There are people out there that were OK with the endings as they were and the EC endings and no amount of whining and complaining on here is going to change that or their opinions.

Even today with the announcement of the trilogy pack coming out. There's already negativity showing up in that thread for NO OTHER REASON other than to be a Debbie-Downer:

"No gameplay changes? Why bother...
"
"Decisions have consequences? Nice joke there."
"False advertising is bad, mk?
At the very least that doesn't apply to ME3  AT ALL, when it should apply the MOST."


....SERIOUSLY?

Granted those comments aren't personal attacks, but there are still MORE than enough of topics that include complaining about the ending in these forums.

So OP, yes, there is massive negativity on these forums, much more than I've seen on other forums.

Out of curiosity, where do you personnaly draw the line between criticism and personnal attacks ?

If I say the whole game was badly written ? How do you consider it ?

Also, not just the ending was bad. The whole plot has its share of problem, and there is the fact bioware lied and didn't apologize for it.

Note that I don't judge anyone for liking the game, that's personnal taste. I'm just arguing that it is objectively not good. TBH i liked ME2 even though the whole plot is in retrospect meh. In the same wayI sometimes like to go to the fast food, even though I know that objectively it isn't great food.


And be honest, the forum'd be boring without anti enders

[Isz Niv]

People do have the right to complain about the endings but dont let it control your life as a whole. Find the medium between people saying its just a game to others saying it changed their lives. There are many new adventuers waiting to come, you just to take a step out of the front door.

[DaBigDragon]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

DaBigDragon wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

 
I can only roll my eyes as i read one forum thread after the other.

This. Exactly this. Almost 7 months later and people are still going on and on and on and on.......

Enough already. We get it. You don't like the ending. That doesn't mean you can slag or disrespect the people who made it with personal attacks that serve no purpose other than to satiate your feelings that they somehow "deserve punishment" for making part of a video game that you did not agree with. They are human just like you and everyone else.

This also does not mean you can do the same to the people who liked the original endings and the EC endings.

Guess what? There are people out there that were OK with the endings as they were and the EC endings and no amount of whining and complaining on here is going to change that or their opinions.

Even today with the announcement of the trilogy pack coming out. There's already negativity showing up in that thread for NO OTHER REASON other than to be a Debbie-Downer:

"No gameplay changes? Why bother...
"
"Decisions have consequences? Nice joke there."
"False advertising is bad, mk?
At the very least that doesn't apply to ME3  AT ALL, when it should apply the MOST."


....SERIOUSLY?

Granted those comments aren't personal attacks, but there are still MORE than enough of topics that include complaining about the ending in these forums.

So OP, yes, there is massive negativity on these forums, much more than I've seen on other forums.

Out of curiosity, where do you personnaly draw the line between criticism and personnal attacks ?

If I say the whole game was badly written ? How do you consider it ?

Also, not just the ending was bad. The whole plot has its share of problem, and there is the fact bioware lied and didn't apologize for it.

Note that I don't judge anyone for liking the game, that's personnal taste. I'm just arguing that it is objectively not good. TBH i liked ME2 even though the whole plot is in retrospect meh. In the same wayI sometimes like to go to the fast food, even though I know that objectively it isn't great food.


And be honest, the forum'd be boring without anti enders

What you said I see as criticism, not constructive, but not a personal attack. There's a huge difference between criticism and constructive criticism and a lot of people here do not understand that. 'Personal attacks' include calling for people to get fired, etc.

However, one of the big problems on these forums is that people just WILL NOT LET THINGS GO. The same tired topics keep showing up when it's been said NUMEROUS times that the ending is no longer being worked on and no amount of complaining here will change that. When a cool announcement or something comes up, those same groups of people ALWAYS have to slide in that bit of negativity to kill the mood. NEVER FAILS here on BSN.

When ME3 came out, I remember seeing threads that did nothing but slag Mac Walters and Casey Hudson, the people who basically created this entire sci-fi series. (Drew Karpyshyn gets credit too! :-D  ) Granted they were closed after a while, but those same people just migrated to other threads and kept talking crap about them.

They both no longer comment on Twitter or here, whereas they were active on at least Twitter before ME3 came out.

I laugh when people here (ME3 forums) complain that developer presence is almost non-existant.

REALLY?

You want to know why? It's because of the constant threat of personal attacks that follow after they post something.

An ME3 developer posts a comment here? Expect the same group of people to show up and either make snide comments about how "everyone" hates the endings (NOTE: not everyone hates the endings), or some other smartass comment about Day 1 DLC, etc. without having ANY CLUE how game development actually works.

Their comments get picked apart. I do not blame them for not posting anything here. The only forum I see any developer precence anymore is the multiplayer forum, which thank goodness the negativity does not adversely affect, other than to complain about nerfs and whatnot.

[DaBigDragon]

Isz Niv wrote...

People do have the right to complain about the endings but dont let it control your life as a whole. Find the medium between people saying its just a game to others saying it changed their lives. There are many new adventuers waiting to come, you just to take a step out of the front door.

This I agree with.

[Isz Niv]

Take hope people. We still have half a year of DLC to come. But take what you have learned from this epic trilogy and forge something greater.Become the Shepard of your own life, and make your endings as happy as you can make them.

[Kamfrenchie]

DaBigDragon wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

DaBigDragon wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

 
I can only roll my eyes as i read one forum thread after the other.

This. Exactly this. Almost 7 months later and people are still going on and on and on and on.......

Enough already. We get it. You don't like the ending. That doesn't mean you can slag or disrespect the people who made it with personal attacks that serve no purpose other than to satiate your feelings that they somehow "deserve punishment" for making part of a video game that you did not agree with. They are human just like you and everyone else.

This also does not mean you can do the same to the people who liked the original endings and the EC endings.

Guess what? There are people out there that were OK with the endings as they were and the EC endings and no amount of whining and complaining on here is going to change that or their opinions.

Even today with the announcement of the trilogy pack coming out. There's already negativity showing up in that thread for NO OTHER REASON other than to be a Debbie-Downer:

"No gameplay changes? Why bother...
"
"Decisions have consequences? Nice joke there."
"False advertising is bad, mk?
At the very least that doesn't apply to ME3  AT ALL, when it should apply the MOST."


....SERIOUSLY?

Granted those comments aren't personal attacks, but there are still MORE than enough of topics that include complaining about the ending in these forums.

So OP, yes, there is massive negativity on these forums, much more than I've seen on other forums.

Out of curiosity, where do you personnaly draw the line between criticism and personnal attacks ?

If I say the whole game was badly written ? How do you consider it ?

Also, not just the ending was bad. The whole plot has its share of problem, and there is the fact bioware lied and didn't apologize for it.

Note that I don't judge anyone for liking the game, that's personnal taste. I'm just arguing that it is objectively not good. TBH i liked ME2 even though the whole plot is in retrospect meh. In the same wayI sometimes like to go to the fast food, even though I know that objectively it isn't great food.


And be honest, the forum'd be boring without anti enders

What you said I see as criticism, not constructive, but not a personal attack. There's a huge difference between criticism and constructive criticism and a lot of people here do not understand that. 'Personal attacks' include calling for people to get fired, etc.

However, one of the big problems on these forums is that people just WILL NOT LET THINGS GO. The same tired topics keep showing up when it's been said NUMEROUS times that the ending is no longer being worked on and no amount of complaining here will change that. When a cool announcement or something comes up, those same groups of people ALWAYS have to slide in that bit of negativity to kill the mood. NEVER FAILS here on BSN.

When ME3 came out, I remember seeing threads that did nothing but slag Mac Walters and Casey Hudson, the people who basically created this entire sci-fi series. (Drew Karpyshyn gets credit too! :-D  ) Granted they were closed after a while, but those same people just migrated to other threads and kept talking crap about them.

They both no longer comment on Twitter or here, whereas they were active on at least Twitter before ME3 came out.

I laugh when people here (ME3 forums) complain that developer presence is almost non-existant.

REALLY?

You want to know why? It's because of the constant threat of personal attacks that follow after they post something.

An ME3 developer posts a comment here? Expect the same group of people to show up and either make snide comments about how "everyone" hates the endings (NOTE: not everyone hates the endings), or some other smartass comment about Day 1 DLC, etc. without having ANY CLUE how game development actually works.

Their comments get picked apart. I do not blame them for not posting anything here. The only forum I see any developer precence anymore is the multiplayer forum, which thank goodness the negativity does not adversely affect, other than to complain about nerfs and whatnot.

Although I'm sure there are bad apples among anti enders, I'd say Bioware had it somewhat coming regarding the backlash (except the threats and personnal insults ofc). Again, I think a few apologies would have helped after they lied on the product and that day 1 dlc that just activates content already on the original disk

.
That's also part of the job to be able to take some criticism.

And come on, some fans protested by using cupcakes...
Plus it's in their interest.

[Kamfrenchie]

EntropicAngel wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Collpase BioWare through bad word of mouth and their power as a consumer to stop buying BW stuff. I don't agree with doing either things but they are well within their rights as a consumer to do so. There's nothing disgusting about that. Insulting and threatening BW employees is different and was never a central part of Retake.

And the fans did not start the "artistic integrity" thing. Ray said that in his message. It was effectively a shield, a way to avoid justifying their work at all. It was a cop-out. I do not believe artists should be forced to change their work to accede the general public, but neither do I believe that artistic integrity protects writers from criticism.

Criticism is good. Criticism is very good.

Demanding things is bad. Demanding things is very bad.

I've spent plenty of hours criticising things in the games. But I've never, never demanded that Bioware change their games to suit my perceptions. And I cannot have any sympathy for someone who does.

"Retake ME3 - DEMAND a better ending to Mass Effect"

Remember the sigs? I sure do.

Please explain how this is bad to demand it, the original endings were certainly ... bad.

Again, it's not something Bioware made for themselves and let us play  or watch for free. As soon as your story/ work is meant to be sold in masse like many product, having to change things isn't extraordinary.

I'm pretty sure editor will demand a writer to change parts of a book if he thinks they are badly done.