398 réponses à ce sujet

[clennon8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Collpase BioWare through bad word of mouth and their power as a consumer to stop buying BW stuff. I don't agree with doing either things but they are well within their rights as a consumer to do so. There's nothing disgusting about that. Insulting and threatening BW employees is different and was never a central part of Retake.

And the fans did not start the "artistic integrity" thing. Ray said that in his message. It was effectively a shield, a way to avoid justifying their work at all. It was a cop-out. I do not believe artists should be forced to change their work to accede the general public, but neither do I believe that artistic integrity protects writers from criticism.

Criticism is good. Criticism is very good.

Demanding things is bad. Demanding things is very bad.

I've spent plenty of hours criticising things in the games. But I've never, never demanded that Bioware change their games to suit my perceptions. And I cannot have any sympathy for someone who does.

"Retake ME3 - DEMAND a better ending to Mass Effect"

Remember the sigs? I sure do.

You have stated that consumers demanding something is bad as if that were somehow axiomatic.  It isn't.  That's just your personal opinion.  And not really a very supportable one, frankly.

[clennon8]

Your eyes need checking.

[MystEU]

It's really olddddd.

I've even gotten bored of talking crap to the haters. That's how old it has gotten!

[Kamfrenchie]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

Please explain how this is bad to demand it, the original endings were certainly ... bad.

Again, it's not something Bioware made for themselves and let us play  or watch for free. As soon as your story/ work is meant to be sold in masse like many product, having to change things isn't extraordinary.

I'm pretty sure editor will demand a writer to change parts of a book if he thinks they are badly done.

The original endings were very very good in my eyes.

"Having to change things" isn't changing the aspects of the story--it's changing mechanics.

Badly done? You do realize how subjective that is, right? He will if necessary, or the proof-reader will if you're talking grammatical errors. But the consumers? No.

How were they very good when a new character and conflict was introduced in 10 minutes ?

Also

http://www.google.co...wOpbs5L_wjJz3vg

[clennon8]

The endings (especially pre-EC, and only slightly less so post-EC) are objectively, provably, demonstrably terrible. But sometimes people like terrible stuff. We've all got that movie/book/game/television show that we enjoy even though we know it's bad.

[Ace of Dawn]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

Also people not getting over BW 'lying' and generally misusing/ overusing super dramatic phrases makes me come by here less and less.

It'd be easier to get over it if they apologized for it.

Btw, aren't you worried by the fact they lied to you on a number of things ? Sure, you like the game, but can you trust bioware ?

Trust them? They're a video game developer, I'm not asking them to look after my dog or anything. They're the ones making the game, so long as I enjoy myself, I'm fine.

Now then, I understand you have a lot more invested into this than I do. You are a more involved gamer than I, and if I had more reason to, I'd care a lot more. But I don't. It's no one's fault, I'm just finding less time for video games as a whole, especially very involving ones like Mass Effect that took place over three games.

But I spent a considerable amount of time playing them, and love their story. I killed Saren, saved the council, destroyed the Collectors, cured the Genophage, saved the council again, brokered peace between the Geth and Quarians, and rid the Galaxy of the Reaper threat and ultimately saved the galaxy three times after several years of playing and waiting. I have fought against armies and merc bands; indoctrinated, and created. I am satisfied about what I experienced. I fought a Reaper on foot!

So, if all I want to do is go to a forum and discuss something random about a really cool series without seeing something relating to artistic integrity, the endings being lame, the catalyst, one ending being wrong, all of them being ethical, all of them being unethical, space magic, lore, or anything inbetween, is that too much to ask? All the forums are filled with is exactly the same thing, over and over. I have to search to find a topic that is actually enteratining for me to involve myself with.

I understand disappointment. I sympathize with you. You're upset, that's fine. I have no problems with your opinions, we all clearly have our own thoughts on the matter and we should be able to understand that we can't really change the core issue. But I didn't go seeking to express it every chance I could.

All I want to do is to talk, joke a bit, and just enjoy the series. And I am sure there are many others that simply want to do the same. So all I am left wondering is...

Is the Bioware Social Network forums here to discuss the series, or to express our disappointment to everyone?

The former can have the latter *in* it, but not be entirely consumed by it. I want that. I want us to all express our dislike and like easily. As it stands now, all I ever see is disappointment. And I simply hope that it all evens out...

Oh well. I'm going to go play StarCraft 2.

[CronoDragoon]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The original endings were very very good in my eyes.

"Having to change things" isn't changing the aspects of the story--it's changing mechanics.

Badly done? You do realize how subjective that is, right? He will if necessary, or the proof-reader will if you're talking grammatical errors. But the consumers? No.

To me, whether or not something is subjective doesn't determine whether or not it's right to ask for a change.

And at the end of the day, Retake was asking, not demanding, because the fans have no legal authority to force BioWare to change it. The decision was always BioWare's, and although Retake used "demand" because it sounded catchy, the reality was that what caused the EC was BioWare's assessment of the economic viability of not doing anything vs. doing the EC. In other words, the fan outcry was nothing more than a factor in an economic decision that was still entirely BioWare's.

While not disgusting, it would be ultimately pointless to "demand" a change to a free work of art. But people paid for it, and the moment that happens it becomes a product, and the moment that happens economics determines everything. Fans (consumers) "demanding" a better ending is them asking for a better product. It is IRRELEVANT whether or not the quality of the product is subjective in this regard, because we are dealing with financial calculations and nothing else.

I personally believe that artistic integrity was the company's cover when they decided that doing new endings for free was not financially worth viable. I don't mean this as a conspiracy theory, but it seems likely that this was the primary driving force between the ultimate (and in my opinion) satisfactory compromise that was the EC.

The first version of something can often be the bad one (Blade Runner anyone?) and sometimes writers can be the last people on Earth to scrutinize the quality of what they have made. To suggest that fans can't ask/demand for something to be changed is to either suggest that writers should never change their work (doubt anyone takes this position) or that fans should not be in a moral position to object to something so strongly as to cause a change. I don't agree with that and find nothing morally repulsive about Facebook petitions or outraged threads on the BSN.

HOWEVER. There is a difference between having this conversation after the game is released and having it now 7 months later, 3 months after BioWare has already released free content as a compromise between their beliefs and fans' desires. At the same time I find no problem with fans demanding a change, I also have no problem with BioWare not completely changing things. I also find the EC itself to be a sign that BioWare is an incredible company who listens to their fans more than most videogame companies. Imagine trying to get FF13's ending changed.

Personally, I feel that it is unhealthy to still be actively seeking changes. I think it's better for everyone if we get past it. Some people can't get over it, and there's a word for that: neurosis. It simply is not healthy to still be this angry about a story.

[Kamfrenchie]

CronoDragoon wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

The original endings were very very good in my eyes.

"Having to change things" isn't changing the aspects of the story--it's changing mechanics.

Badly done? You do realize how subjective that is, right? He will if necessary, or the proof-reader will if you're talking grammatical errors. But the consumers? No.

To me, whether or not something is subjective doesn't determine whether or not it's right to ask for a change.

And at the end of the day, Retake was asking, not demanding, because the fans have no legal authority to force BioWare to change it. The decision was always BioWare's, and although Retake used "demand" because it sounded catchy, the reality was that what caused the EC was BioWare's assessment of the economic viability of not doing anything vs. doing the EC. In other words, the fan outcry was nothing more than a factor in an economic decision that was still entirely BioWare's.

While not disgusting, it would be ultimately pointless to "demand" a change to a free work of art. But people paid for it, and the moment that happens it becomes a product, and the moment that happens economics determines everything. Fans (consumers) "demanding" a better ending is them asking for a better product. It is IRRELEVANT whether or not the quality of the product is subjective in this regard, because we are dealing with financial calculations and nothing else.

I personally believe that artistic integrity was the company's cover when they decided that doing new endings for free was not financially worth viable. I don't mean this as a conspiracy theory, but it seems likely that this was the primary driving force between the ultimate (and in my opinion) satisfactory compromise that was the EC.

The first version of something can often be the bad one (Blade Runner anyone?) and sometimes writers can be the last people on Earth to scrutinize the quality of what they have made. To suggest that fans can't ask/demand for something to be changed is to either suggest that writers should never change their work (doubt anyone takes this position) or that fans should not be in a moral position to object to something so strongly as to cause a change. I don't agree with that and find nothing morally repulsive about Facebook petitions or outraged threads on the BSN.

HOWEVER. There is a difference between having this conversation after the game is released and having it now 7 months later, 3 months after BioWare has already released free content as a compromise between their beliefs and fans' desires. At the same time I find no problem with fans demanding a change, I also have no problem with BioWare not completely changing things. I also find the EC itself to be a sign that BioWare is an incredible company who listens to their fans more than most videogame companies. Imagine trying to get FF13's ending changed.

Personally, I feel that it is unhealthy to still be actively seeking changes. I think it's better for everyone if we get past it. Some people can't get over it, and there's a word for that: neurosis. It simply is not healthy to still be this angry about a story.

If I may, you said yourself Bioware made the EC because it was the best decision for them and future sale, then you say you are thankful for them giving a free dlc. It just feels a bit odd imo.



@Ace of Dawn

Noooo ! SC2 imbodies everything i hate aboout STR ! Crazy apm repetitive task and macro management and...
Well glad you like it.


But yeah, I think we anti enders shouldn't remind everyone about the ending all the time on all topic, though having a bit of this in this forum is probably ok

Modifié par Kamfrenchie, 26 septembre 2012 - 09:43 .

[Lunch Box1912]

Kel Riever wrote...

I'm beginning to think the people who liked the Mass Effect 3 endings are the 'vocal minority.'

Agreed.

[Velocithon]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The fact they made a AAA title with such an unmarketable ending should serve as a testament to how important checking work and feedback is.

I quite simply don't care anymore. People need to move on now, nothing is going to change. If you can't tolerate it now, you most likely never will.

Yeah. I really don't care either. I'd be ecstatic if they changed it, but they won't.

I still feel bummed sometimes when I think about what a great oppurtunity they just obliterated.

[CronoDragoon]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

If I may, you said yourself Bioware made the EC because it was the best decision for them and future sale, then you say you are thankful for them giving a free dlc. It just feels a bit odd imo.



@Ace of Dawn

Noooo ! SC2 imbodies everything i hate aboout STR ! Crazy apm repetitive task and macro management and...
Well glad you like it.


But yeah, I think we anti enders shouldn't remind everyone about the ending all the time on all topic, though having a bit of this in this forum is probably ok

Well, when I go get takeout food, I still say thanks when they give it to me even though they are just doing it for business reasons. It's possible to benefit from a company's decisions, even if those decisions were not done purely for your benefit.

But perhaps I was not being entirely fair to BioWare. It might be possible, after all, that economically their best option was to simply do nothing and continue to churn out DLC. Whether or not people who disliked the endings were a minority, it is a fact that the number of Retakers WAS a minority simply from a numbers standpoint. EA is a big enough company to simply eat the PR, if they have to. But I like to think that BioWare enjoys its reputation of interacting with the fans and developing content in accordance with fan desire, so perhaps that factored in as well. In which case, it makes me feel bad about what has transpired over these months, even if I believe Retake was correct to want a better ending.

And yes, it's annoying when ending hate is injected into unrelated threads. Even in the new ME Trilogy thread we have a guy dissecting their promotion for it and declaring most things marketing lies.

[clarkusdarkus]

Wait...........there was an ending? shepards lying in rubble on my playthrough

[drayfish]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

drayfish wrote...

-Snip-

Then you have a problem with the entire Mass Effect series, not just the endings.

Um...  No?

It's the ludicrous contradiction between the rest of the series and those final ten minutes that I have the problem with.  Had the conclusion stayed true to the remainder of the narrative I would have no issue, no matter how dreary the finale proved to be.

[Iakus]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

Wait...........there was an ending? shepards lying in rubble on my playthrough

Mine too.

A very unsatisfactory cliffhanger to the series, I must say...

[Davik Kang]

The OP started the thread with "To people who liked the endings..." yet over 50% of the posts here are haters and whiners, people who most definitely did not like the ending.

I think it is really really sad that Bioware took such a brave decision to end the trilogy as they did, and over 6 months on people are STILL complaining how bad the ending was.

I finished ME3 last week, and knew nothing about it save that it was supposed to be bad... and was treated to one of the best endings I have ever seen in a video game.

Everyone's got their opinion and there's nothing wrong with disliking the ending, but the ferocity of arguments making demands that Bioware actually change the ending is really depressing. Executive Meddling would've given us a gutless "Everybody wins!" ending, with all the Normany crew members, even the dead ones, all singing songs and dancing around a fire, followed by a cutscene with baby Rachni being cradled by their parents while Geth and Quarians hugged and wept openly.

I hope in time this ending is recognised how it deserves to be in my opinion, as one of the best and most important thing to happen in videogames in recent times.

[brettc893]

I think Everyone should get over it;

Pro-Enders: The Ending is ****. This is an Objective Fact, no amount of calling people stupid because they didn't understand the "Depth and Complexity" will change that.it makes you look like a fanboy.

Anti-Enders: We Get It. The endings were bad. We petitioned and fought back and managed to get the Extended Cut, and for even accomplishing that, you should be proud and thankful. Yes, not much was changed, yes, the endings are still bad, but we don't need a reminder EVERY 5 SECONDS.


I, personally, am here for one reason: I Love Mass Effect. To truly love something is to embrace all of it, not just the good. The Good doesn't soften the blow of all the Bad, sure. But the Bad doesn't sour and corrupt all of the Good either. And despite what some want to say, there's far more Good in this Tie that binds us then there is Bad.

[GimmeDaGun]

brettc893 wrote...

I think Everyone should get over it;

Pro-Enders: The Ending is ****. This is an Objective Fact...

Stopped reading your post here Mr. Objective Truth. Thank you for telling me that I'm a stupid moron who has no taste just by this small quote! Pffff...

[megamacka]

Davik Kang wrote...

The OP started the thread with "To people who liked the endings..." yet over 50% of the posts here are haters and whiners, people who most definitely did not like the ending.

I think it is really really sad that Bioware took such a brave decision to end the trilogy as they did, and over 6 months on people are STILL complaining how bad the ending was.

I finished ME3 last week, and knew nothing about it save that it was supposed to be bad... and was treated to one of the best endings I have ever seen in a video game.

Everyone's got their opinion and there's nothing wrong with disliking the ending, but the ferocity of arguments making demands that Bioware actually change the ending is really depressing. Executive Meddling would've given us a gutless "Everybody wins!" ending, with all the Normany crew members, even the dead ones, all singing songs and dancing around a fire, followed by a cutscene with baby Rachni being cradled by their parents while Geth and Quarians hugged and wept openly.

I hope in time this ending is recognised how it deserves to be in my opinion, as one of the best and most important thing to happen in videogames in recent times.

I am sorry, but if you think that the ME3 ending was one of the best endings that you've ever seen then you are either not really that invested in the series, not thinking it through or perhaps.... you just happened to like it.
But seriously, this whole '' disney happy ending '' is not something that I think that the majority of the fans want.
We just want a good ending that goes along the theme and the plot that ME1 and 2 set up.

  I am glad that you liked the ending, but when people still acknowledges just how messed up the ending''s'' truly are six months later.... That says a lot. But these '' 
 ferocity of arguments  '' ... Welcome to the interwebs . It's just sad that a few people makes the rest look like morons that want a disney ending with cake and party time.

  AND WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED TO THE DARK ENERGY!?

Modifié par megamacka, 27 septembre 2012 - 12:12 .

[GimmeDaGun]

megamacka wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

The OP started the thread with "To people who liked the endings..." yet over 50% of the posts here are haters and whiners, people who most definitely did not like the ending.

I think it is really really sad that Bioware took such a brave decision to end the trilogy as they did, and over 6 months on people are STILL complaining how bad the ending was.

I finished ME3 last week, and knew nothing about it save that it was supposed to be bad... and was treated to one of the best endings I have ever seen in a video game.

Everyone's got their opinion and there's nothing wrong with disliking the ending, but the ferocity of arguments making demands that Bioware actually change the ending is really depressing. Executive Meddling would've given us a gutless "Everybody wins!" ending, with all the Normany crew members, even the dead ones, all singing songs and dancing around a fire, followed by a cutscene with baby Rachni being cradled by their parents while Geth and Quarians hugged and wept openly.

I hope in time this ending is recognised how it deserves to be in my opinion, as one of the best and most important thing to happen in videogames in recent times.

I am sorry, but if you think that the ME3 ending was one of the best endings that you've ever seen then you are either not really that invested in the series, not thinking it through or perhaps.... you just happened to like it.
But seriously, this whole '' disney happy ending '' is not something that I think that the majority of the fans want.
We just want a good ending that goes along the theme and the plot that ME1 and 2 set up.

  I am glad that you liked the ending, but when people still acknowledges just how messed up the ending''s'' truly are six months later.... That says a lot. But these '' 
 ferocity of arguments  '' ... Welcome to the interwebs . It's just sad that a few people makes the rest look like morons that want a disney ending with cake and party time.

  AND WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED TO THE DARK ENERGY!?

That Dark Energy plot was only one of the few possibilities the plot could focus on according to Drew. It was just as much a plan as the current ending. The latter won. I also can't see how that ending would have been any better. It would have been the same or worse qualitywise. 

[megamacka]

That Dark Energy plot was only one of the few possibilities the plot could focus on according to Drew. It was just as much a plan as the current ending. The latter won. I also can't see how that ending would have been any better. It would have been the same or worse qualitywise.

They both hint and mention it multiple times.
Now it's kinda like..... Okay Reapers gone - Check....
CRAP!!! I FORGOT ABOUT THE DARK ENERGY!

[The Spamming Troll]

id rather be someone who doesnt like seeing a few upsetting topics in a forum, rather then some one like me. someone who is an idiot and bought the collectors edition of ME3.

i didnt even like ME2!

such a fool, id rather be you.

[megamacka]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

id rather be someone who doesnt like seeing a few upsetting topics in a forum, rather then some one like me. someone who is an idiot and bought the collectors edition of ME3.

i didnt even like ME2!

such a fool, id rather be you.

Lol, I was going to buy the CE for ME3 but I had money issues so I didn't. I was sad at the time but now I am just glad xD.
I managed to get myself to buy a CE of Diablo 3 however..... Man, I wish I hadn't .