398 réponses à ce sujet

[CaIIisto]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Cashmoney007 wrote...

Bioware should have just ran with the indoctrination theory. Who says that fans that didn't like the ending just wanted a happy ending? If fans want a happy ending then why can't that be one of their choices? People actually got deep thought from this game? It will be interesting to see how much the game will change after all the DLC comes out for ME3. A lot of people that didn't like the game for whatever reason might change their opinion.

Once again IT is not an ending. It does not fix the ending, it does not even have an ending using IT. It just makes a giant black hole with no plot or gameplay to follow because no ending was created with IT preceding such.

People would no doubt go absolutely f*cking mental if the original plan was IT and the real conclusion in the DLC. 

[Kreid]

@OP, whenever I come to the forums and see the ongoing negativity I don't particularly feel anything anymore, I think it is time to let go. On the other hand, I'm afraid that BioWare will provide some bombastic Hollywood ultra-happy clichéd endings in their next products which would be a shame.

[Dragoonlordz]

AresKeith wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

funny how you snipped his comment telling people to leave and I used his own comment against him. Man, that's nice of you

The comment I snipped was not telling people to leave, you may have replied in response to something he said some other time but his actual comment I snipped that you replied to was...

"Yet its supposedly "removed" content from ME2 from a Bioware writer.  Its time to move on with this dead horse."

Of which he was referring to dropping the topic, not leaving the forum.

My point being you cannot bash someone for doing something you have done yourself.

hmmm and you just assume I mean leave the forum instead of thread

Oh it is an assumption but I have no doubts as to it's validity of my interpretation.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 27 septembre 2012 - 09:42 .

[Cashmoney007]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Cashmoney007 wrote...

Bioware should have just ran with the indoctrination theory. Who says that fans that didn't like the ending just wanted a happy ending? If fans want a happy ending then why can't that be one of their choices? People actually got deep thought from this game? It will be interesting to see how much the game will change after all the DLC comes out for ME3. A lot of people that didn't like the game for whatever reason might change their opinion.

Once again IT is not an ending. It does not fix the ending, it does not even have an ending using IT. It just makes a giant black hole with no plot or gameplay to follow because no ending was created with IT preceding such.

You have a point there.  But I personally wouldn't have mind if the game did end that way.  I personally wouldn't have mind if they had other choices as well.  The game also could have ended with Shepard and Anderson just looking at the war. 

Modifié par Cashmoney007, 27 septembre 2012 - 10:03 .

[jakal66]

Man, angry nerdy crowds are always like this, they were the same guys who were a pain in the butt back in ME2, angry about this and about that. And I consider myself a kinda nerd but not these annoying type who have unfotunately flooded the internet, opinions? Shoving people your point of view and talking tall and mighty and even disrespectfully in some cases behind a screen?

Gimmie a break, number the amount of threads with constructive criticism and then number the ones with titles like " The ending sucke" or " the reason the ending sucked"

Only thanks to a few who were adult enough to show their thoughts managing their anger were the ones who got us the EC and I thank them for that...but the rest...you know who I'm talking about...

Those who can't deal with other people's opinion in a friendly manner... who think we all must bow down to their master knowledge of the ME universe, they can go play borderlands 2 there and stay there....

Modifié par jakal66, 27 septembre 2012 - 09:46 .

[AresKeith]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Oh it is an assumption but I have no doubts as to it's validity of my interpretation.

if I wanted to tell someone to leave the forums I would have said "leave the forums" because I'm straightforward with it

[CaIIisto]

Creid-X wrote...

@OP, whenever I come to the forums and see the ongoing negativity I don't particularly feel anything anymore, I think it is time to let go. On the other hand, I'm afraid that BioWare will provide some bombastic Hollywood ultra-happy clichéd endings in their next products which would be a shame.

If the game had been linear then I think people would likely have been a lot more sympathetic. However, in a game built around choice and self-determination, that offered multiple endings, the lack of the 'disney' ending was rather naive. BW can beat the 'artistic' drum as much as they like but ultimately they shouldn't have marketed the game as something that it wasn't.

The greatest surprise is that BW were completely taken aback by the general reaction to the end of the game. Really?

[Kreid]

Bester76 wrote...
If the game had been linear then I think people would likely have been a lot more sympathetic. However, in a game built around choice and self-determination, that offered multiple endings, the lack of the 'disney' ending was rather naive. BW can beat the 'artistic' drum as much as they like but ultimately they shouldn't have marketed the game as something that it wasn't.

The greatest surprise is that BW were completely taken aback by the general reaction to the end of the game. Really?

BioWare wanted to make a point acroos the whole game, war is hard, it's ugly, and there are sacrifices to be made, you can see this theme repeating itself through the game, Mordin, Legion, Thane etc... now, if they included a Disney ending not only would it go against one of the main themes of the game but it could have become "THE ending" and the other ones would've just been an afterthought. With all the war glorifying going on in the industry I was happy that BioWare at least tried to show us the ugly side of it as well as the exciting pew-pew.

[CaIIisto]

Creid-X wrote...

BioWare wanted to make a point acroos the whole game, war is hard, it's ugly, and there are sacrifices to be made, you can see this theme repeating itself through the game, Mordin, Legion, Thane etc... now, if they included a Disney ending not only would it go against one of the main themes of the game but it could have become "THE ending" and the other ones would've just been an afterthought. With all the war glorifying going on in the industry I was happy that BioWare at least tried to show us the ugly side of it as well as the exciting pew-pew.

If BW truly thought that this was 'artistic' then they missed the boat. The 'war is hard' theme is as cliched as anything else. War is hard? Really? Gee thanks for that BW. 

The inclusion of the 'disney' ending changes nothing. How many people play the game through just the once? How many play it through to get all the endings? It's the final game in the trilogy, it's the end of the Reaper story, it's the end of Shepard's story - it really doesn't matter what THE ending is now, it can be whatever the user wants it to be. Are people who've played through the endings now sufficiently better educated that war is tough? Doubtful. 

As I said, if it were linear - maybe, but it's not, and it certainly wasn't marketed that you'd be railroaded.

[Cashmoney007]

jakal66 wrote...

Those who can't deal with other people's opinion in a friendly manner... who think we all must bow down to their master knowledge of the ME universe, they can go play borderlands 2 there and stay there....

Nobody should have to bow down to another person's opinion.  But certain people are never going to feel the same as others about this game.  I personally have never felt like making a ending suck topic because I don't care that much. 

[Podge 90]

Seival wrote...

Podge 90 wrote...

You should read more if you think Control is deep and philosophical.

Gamers nowadays.

The entire ending concept is deep and philosophical. Including Control. All you need is to analize the endings. It's not that hard. But somehow, some players refuse to do so. I'm glad those are just minority. And I'll be really pleased if this minority will stop being too vocal.

Podge 90 wrote...

You should read more if you think Control is deep and philosophical.

Gamers nowadays.

 

[Kreid]

Bester76 wrote...
If BW truly thought that this was 'artistic' then they missed the boat. The 'war is hard' theme is as cliched as anything else. War is hard? Really? Gee thanks for that BW.

Well, say what you want but it was refreshing to feel that you "win" by an inch with no possibility of washing your hand when almost every war game out there makes Schwarzenegger films look like documentaries filmed on location, usually including chopper and all. 

The inclusion of the 'disney' ending changes nothing. How many people play the game through just the once? How many play it through to get all the endings? It's the final game in the trilogy, it's the end of the Reaper story, it's the end of Shepard's story - it really doesn't matter what THE ending is now, it can be whatever the user wants it to be. Are people who've played through the endings now sufficiently better educated that war is tough? Doubtful. 

As I said, if it were linear - maybe, but it's not, and it certainly wasn't marketed that you'd be railroaded.

You can see Destroy is the user's pet ending and that's pretty much because Shepard lives in the end, and it kills the Reapers, if there was an ending that just killed the Reapers and introduced a reunion/house on Rannoch blah, blah...the rest of the endings would not even be considered canon. And, i don't want to question people's education of war, but seeing all the crying and moan about "Y can I not have a happy ending!!!???", "Y can't I just kill Reapers!!!???" and "Synthesis is bad because Saren liekd it thus it has to be BAD, RIGHT!!!? makes me wonder if people in genral like good stories at all.

Modifié par Creid-X, 27 septembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[CaIIisto]

Creid-X wrote...

Well, say what you want but it was refreshing to feel that you "win" by an inch with no possibility of washing your hand when almost every war game out there makes Schwarzenegger films look like documentaries film on location, usually chopper and all.

Perhaps a topic for the next survey - how many people played Mass Effect to be educated.  

You can see Destroy is the user's pet ending and that's pretty much because Shepard lives in the end, and it kills the Reapers, if there was an ending that just killed the Reapers and introduced a reunion/house on Rannoch blah, blah...the rest of the endings would not even be considered canon. And, i don't want to question people's education of war, but seeing all the crying and moan about "Y can I not have a happy ending!!!???", "Y can't I just kill Reapers!!!???" and "Synthesis is bad because Saren liekd it thus it has to be BAD, RIGHT!!!? makes me wonder if people in genral like good stories at all.

Or perhaps it's the pet ending because that's what they've spent 3 games and 5 years working towards, destroying the Reapers. Instead of having space magic like Synthesis thrown in at the eleventh hour. Or Control, which effectively you've just spent the better part of the game trying to prevent TIM from pulling off. Then there's Refuse, which would be completely out of character, even if you're renegade. 

I think people need to realize that as an example of good storytelling, ME3 isn't. The fact that some people think it is, should be cause enough for us all to weep.

[Kamfrenchie]

Creid-X wrote...

Bester76 wrote...
If BW truly thought that this was 'artistic' then they missed the boat. The 'war is hard' theme is as cliched as anything else. War is hard? Really? Gee thanks for that BW.

Well, say what you want but it was refreshing to feel that you "win" by an inch with no possibility of washing your hand when almost every war game out there makes Schwarzenegger films look like documentaries filmed on location, usually including chopper and all. 

The inclusion of the 'disney' ending changes nothing. How many people play the game through just the once? How many play it through to get all the endings? It's the final game in the trilogy, it's the end of the Reaper story, it's the end of Shepard's story - it really doesn't matter what THE ending is now, it can be whatever the user wants it to be. Are people who've played through the endings now sufficiently better educated that war is tough? Doubtful. 

As I said, if it were linear - maybe, but it's not, and it certainly wasn't marketed that you'd be railroaded.

You can see Destroy is the user's pet ending and that's pretty much because Shepard lives in the end, and it kills the Reapers, if there was an ending that just killed the Reapers and introduced a reunion/house on Rannoch blah, blah...the rest of the endings would not even be considered canon. And, i don't want to question people's education of war, but seeing all the crying and moan about "Y can I not have a happy ending!!!???", "Y can't I just kill Reapers!!!???" and "Synthesis is bad because Saren liekd it thus it has to be BAD, RIGHT!!!? makes me wonder if people in genral like good stories at all.

All endings are disney endings  because they ignore the negative part of your choices.

And ME depiction of war is terrible, really. Did you really feel any guilt mowing down cerberus troopers or husks ?

Plus both sides act stupid.

Spec ops the line depicts war way better in the way you can feel sorry for your opponents, see them slowly die in pain.

And there is Arma 2, granted it's a military simulator not easy to aceess and not too ergonomic, but it shows what war is.

War is shooting at people you can barely see at hundreds of meters, war is long periods of waiting and nothing happening and short period of times where soldiers keep thinking they're gonna die.

I remember, after a firefight in this game, I came accross the body of an ennemy. The bullet hit him in the face, and it was somewhat smashed and the impact was....
I just went "wow, ****, that must be horrible IRL" I was somewhat shaken.

ME is nothing amazing on war depiction, many FPS or action game do that.


Also, destroy is very popular because people distrust the catalyst and his logic, I'm sure shepard surviving isn't really that important

[Kreid]

Bester76 wrote...
Perhaps a topic for the next survey - how many people played Mass Effect to be educated.

Video Games have a narrative, they tell a story just like movies and books do , if they are about a certain subject you are going to get educated on it if the author does a good job, Mass Effect is a story heavy game, if people don't want it maybe they should be looking at different genres. Escapism is all good and well but the further you go down that road usually, the more quality you strip from the narrative.

Or perhaps it's the pet ending because that's what they've spent 3 games and 5 years working towards, destroying the Reapers. Instead of having space magic like Synthesis thrown in at the eleventh hour. Or Control, which effectively you've just spent the better part of the game trying to prevent TIM from pulling off. Then there's Refuse, which would be completely out of character, even if you're renegade.

What is Shepard, an automation? Soldiers are suppossed to use their judgement on dire situations, the situation changed, going BAM, BAM, BAM just because it was the original mission's goal is fairly shortsighted. Regarding Control that's ambiguous, a Renegade Shepard actually urguer TIM to take Control and end the war, the merit of an idea is independant of the morality of whoever thinks it, I wouldn't trust TIM given his story which such power, but not all people have to agree with Anderson and Haccket.

I think people need to realize that as an example of good storytelling, ME3 isn't. The fact that some people think it is, should be cause enough for us all to weep.

I agree, saying the story execution was flawed would be a monumental understatement, but that doesn't mean the ideas behind the ending are bad, they're pretty interesting IMO.

Modifié par Creid-X, 27 septembre 2012 - 11:04 .

[Kreid]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

All endings are disney endings  because they ignore the negative part of your choices.

True, I love how destroy completely neglects even a glimpse about EDI and the Geth going offline, and a that's just an example.

And ME depiction of war is terrible, really. Did you really feel any guilt mowing down cerberus troopers or husks ?

Plus both sides act stupid.

Spec ops the line depicts war way better in the way you can feel sorry for your opponents, see them slowly die in pain.

And there is Arma 2, granted it's a military simulator not easy to aceess and not too ergonomic, but it shows what war is.

War is shooting at people you can barely see at hundreds of meters, war is long periods of waiting and nothing happening and short period of times where soldiers keep thinking they're gonna die.

I remember, after a firefight in this game, I came accross the body of an ennemy. The bullet hit him in the face, and it was somewhat smashed and the impact was....
I just went "wow, ****, that must be horrible IRL" I was somewhat shaken.

ME is nothing amazing on war depiction, many FPS or action game do that.

I didn't say it was a good depiction or even accurate, but they definitely had the intention of touching those themes thought, for example, you see self sacrifice is prevalent, the rutless calculus of war, the child representen himanity in Shepard's dream etc... 

Also, destroy is very popular because people distrust the catalyst and his logic, I'm sure shepard surviving isn't really that important

fair enough, but don't go on pretending that Shepard surviving isn't ahuge factor of it being popular.

Modifié par Creid-X, 27 septembre 2012 - 11:03 .

[Kreid]

Sorry triple post.

Modifié par Creid-X, 27 septembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[FlamingBoy]

Ozida wrote...

This thread is still open?! What ever happened to "Complaining about complainers..." rule?

it was opened by the "pro-bioware" camp, so exceptions were made, palms were greased

[FlamingBoy]

fil009 wrote...

Wow talk about derailment. Anyways, A-bombs were a little harsh but... December 7, 1941. NUFF SAID.

are you seriously suggesting the attack on pearl harbor was a justification for droping nuclear weapons?!!!


l

[CaIIisto]

Creid-X wrote...
Video Games have a narrative, they tell a story just like movies and books do , if they are about a certain subject you are going to get educated on it if the author does a good job, Mass Effect is a story heavy game, if people don't want it maybe they should be looking at different genres. Escapism is all good and well but the further you go down that road usually, the more quality you strip from the narrative.

Not all videogames carry a narrative, and even those that do rarely carry it that well. Here's where videogames are at a distinct disadvantage. I read a book to enjoy a story. I watch a movie to enjoy a story. I watch documentaries to learn. I watch the news to learn.  I play a videogame to play a videogame. If there's a narrative there then that's all well and good, but I don't go into  it with the same requirements and expectations that I would do of a book, movie, documentary or otherwise.

What is Sheprad, an automation? Soldiers are suppossed to use their judgement on dire situations, the situation changed, going BAM, BAM, BAM just because it was the original mission's goal is fairly shortsighted. Regarding Control that's ambiguous, a Renegade Shepard actually urguer TIM to take Control and end the war, the merit of an idea is independant of the morality of whoever thinks it, I wouldn't trust TIM given his story which such power, but not all people have to agree with Anderson and Haccket.

No, soldiers follow orders, with limited discretionary power. They're most certainly not empowered to deviate from plan based on advice provided by the enemy CIC.

A renegade Shepard urging TIM to take control was proven to be a mistake given that we know TIM was already under the influence of the Reapers anyway.

Control - An individual wielding the power of the Reapers - genius. Would this be paragon or renegade Shepard? 

Destroy is by far the most logical choice - do we expect Shepard to merely forget the billions that have already been wiped out by the Reapers? the devasted worlds left in their wake? The number of his own crew killed by them either directly or indirectly? Even pure paragon Shepard would struggle to go with anything other than destroy.

I agree, saying the story execution was flawed would be a monumental understatement, but that doesn't mean the ideas behind the ending are bad, they're pretty interesting IMO.

It doesn't really matter. If those ideas are poorly executed then it can turn the most fascinating story into a tedious frustration - see Star Trek Voyager.

[Kamfrenchie]

Creid-X wrote...

Bester76 wrote...
Perhaps a topic for the next survey - how many people played Mass Effect to be educated.

Video Games have a narrative, they tell a story just like movies and books do , if they are about a certain subject you are going to get educated on it if the author does a good job, Mass Effect is a story heavy game, if people don't want it maybe they should be looking at different genres. Escapism is all good and well but the further you go down that road usually, the more quality you strip from the narrative.

Or perhaps it's the pet ending because that's what they've spent 3 games and 5 years working towards, destroying the Reapers. Instead of having space magic like Synthesis thrown in at the eleventh hour. Or Control, which effectively you've just spent the better part of the game trying to prevent TIM from pulling off. Then there's Refuse, which would be completely out of character, even if you're renegade.

What is Shepard, an automation? Soldiers are suppossed to use their judgement on dire situations, the situation changed, going BAM, BAM, BAM just because it was the original mission's goal is fairly shortsighted. Regarding Control that's ambiguous, a Renegade Shepard actually urguer TIM to take Control and end the war, the merit of an idea is independant of the morality of whoever thinks it, I wouldn't trust TIM given his story which such power, but not all people have to agree with Anderson and Haccket.

I think people need to realize that as an example of good storytelling, ME3 isn't. The fact that some people think it is, should be cause enough for us all to weep.

I agree, saying the story execution was flawed would be a monumental understatement, but that doesn't mean the ideas behind the ending are bad, they're pretty interesting IMO.

sure, you can adapt to a situation, but changing your goal in the last 10 minutes because the ennemy boss told you about something that may or ay not happen is being naive.

Destroy is the safe bet. There is no foreshadowing of the reapers doing anything good until that point. This is why destroy is the logical choice. And anyway even if the catalyst is right, the destroy function would prevent synthetics from exterminating organic. They can just rebuild another one after that.

See, in deus ex, you join the rebel after lenghty exposition and foreshadowing. You first see the NSF as they commit terrorist acts, then meet some of their leaders, see the flaws in your own group, etc. This is how you do it. You don't revel that the bad guys have good intent in the last 5 mins

[N7 Lisbeth]

jakal66 wrote...

Man, angry nerdy crowds are always like this, they were the same guys who were a pain in the butt back in ME2, angry about this and about that. And I consider myself a kinda nerd but not these annoying type who have unfotunately flooded the internet, opinions? Shoving people your point of view and talking tall and mighty and even disrespectfully in some cases behind a screen?

I assure you, I loved ME2 in all its buggy glory and still do. The replayability of that game still has me going through it even now.  But I despise ME3's endings (all of them) and the game has zero replayability for me because of it. I haven't done more than the opening act for Leviathan because ME3's ending is waiting, unchanged, and it depresses me and I quit after a handful of minutes.

As it's been said many times before, people aren't angry because they're "nerds," or because they have a history of doing these things. In fact, by and large, we do not. (Yes, it's a generalisation -- but a far more accurate generalisation than yours.) We are upset because the endings are horribly retcon'd from terrible fiction, don't make any sense, break many story elements and the overall theme from the entire trilogy (even ME3's themes!), and was planned this way to intentionally spark controversary for publicity.

Have all the "publicity" you want, Bioware. It's the wrong kind. In the gaming industry, bad publicity is bad. I realise that's a hard concept for corporate execs to understand, but it's remains true regardless of what you believe. Trust, once thrown away, is hard to regain.

[Davik Kang]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

... We are upset because the endings are horribly retcon'd from terrible fiction, don't make any sense, break many story elements and the overall theme from the entire trilogy (even ME3's themes!), and was planned this way to intentionally spark controversary for publicity.

Have all the "publicity" you want, Bioware. It's the wrong kind. In the gaming industry, bad publicity is bad. I realise that's a hard concept for corporate execs to understand, but it's remains true regardless of what you believe. Trust, once thrown away, is hard to regain.

The endings don't break any story elements at all.  You bring up Corporate Execs, but if it had been up to Corporate Execs, we would've got a candy-coated ending where everything was painstakingly explained.  Bioware trusted their fans to appreciate their ending, but some 'fans' are throwing it back in their face.

If you want a different ending, or multiple endings which reflect your choices more clearly, that's a different matter.

But the endings are really clever, and the product of an excellent writing team.  Note that Bioware were really shocked by the negative reaction; that they refuse to make any concession that the ending was not good enough; and that they are not going to change the ending.  This should have alarm bells ringing for you guys.  They are happy with the ending... do you really think they'd support the ending if they felt they'd done it badly?  Bear in mind how fan-focused they've been throughout the series.

[Cashmoney007]

As I said before and will say again......

We will see what happens with this game after all the dlc comes out for it. I personally didn't care if Shepard died in the game in one of those endings or not. I still stand by having the indoctrination theory. The only ending in ME3 that was worth my time was destroy.