398 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The main theme of ME3 is victory through sacrifice. Lt. Victus, Mordin and Eve, Legion. Shepard giving the ultimate sacrifice for the ultimate victory over the Reapers fits with this theme. I realize that there are other problems with the ending, but I don't have a problem with Shepard dying, and I appreciate that Bioware went in a different direction.

Having Shepard's death be mandatory in all but the genocide ending was... highly idiotic, in my own opinion. It should be something that's far more controllable than that.

[Darth_Atreyu]

Reorte wrote...

Darth_Atreyu wrote...

I just want people who claim to be fans of Mass Effect to be excited and say "hey wouldn't it be cool if this or that happened" instead harrasing Bioware employee's, having pointless arguments
and creating a bad environment here on the bsn forums.
Has it always been this negative here on bsn or has there ever been a better time?

What we're seeing is a backlash from people who are angry that someone did exactly that - "Hey, wouldn't this be cool?" without putting a second's thought behind it and what the consequences would be. The negativity is a sign of a large collection of intelligent, thinking people who aren't fobbed off easily (admittedly mingled in with a few loons who flew completely off the handle). It's what happens when you attract an audience who enjoy putting thought into much more than simply the surface, and appreciate effort and attention to detail. Mix in letting them down at a crucial stage of a trilogy and it would be depressing if there wasn't a good deal of negativity.

I don't like pointless arguments anonymously  on the internet and speculations about the intelligence of people i don't know but i will say this, the indoctrination theory is a total rip of the last episode of "Roseanne" so there is that.
You basically claimed that anybody who liked the ending as it is now are stupid and don't appreciate attention to detail, i disagree.
I would rather have have someone who is creative and independent say "hey wouldn't it be cool if this happened" make the adventures that i play rather then someone who makes things only to appease people who are never appeased.
I'm just happy and privileged that Bioware made a game where i could go on an adventure with my spaceman and woman in a cool ship, learn to know the galaxy and then save it.
I'm patiently waiting for the next journey.

[WildHog70]

Xilizhra wrote...

The main theme of ME3 is victory through sacrifice. Lt. Victus, Mordin and Eve, Legion. Shepard giving the ultimate sacrifice for the ultimate victory over the Reapers fits with this theme. I realize that there are other problems with the ending, but I don't have a problem with Shepard dying, and I appreciate that Bioware went in a different direction.

Having Shepard's death be mandatory in all but the genocide ending was... highly idiotic, in my own opinion. It should be something that's far more controllable than that.

I think they did that for a few reasons.

To balance the endings. If you could live in all three endings, why would you commit genocide? They didn't want one ending to be the ending everyone chose, or have an ending nobody chose.

They wanted Shepard to die because they wanted to move on with the ME franchise. I'm not sure how they'll do it. Frankly, Halo 4 seems a little forced to me. Reach was awesome without the main protagonist.

Also, I think Bioware deserves respect for changing it up. For choosing something unexpected, for experimenting.

[Darth_Atreyu]

[quote]Darth_Atreyu wrote...

[quote]Reorte wrote...

[quote]Darth_Atreyu wrote...

I just want people who claim to be fans of Mass Effect to be excited and say "hey wouldn't it be cool if this or that happened" instead harrasing Bioware employee's, having pointless arguments
and creating a bad environment here on the bsn forums.
Has it always been this negative here on bsn or has there ever been a better time?[/quote]
What we're seeing is a backlash from people who are angry that someone did exactly that - "Hey, wouldn't this be cool?" without putting a second's thought behind it and what the consequences would be. The negativity is a sign of a large collection of intelligent, thinking people who aren't fobbed off easily (admittedly mingled in with a few loons who flew completely off the handle). It's what happens when you attract an audience who enjoy putting thought into much more than simply the surface, and appreciate effort and attention to detail. Mix in letting them down at a crucial stage of a trilogy and it would be depressing if there wasn't a good deal of negativity.


I don't like pointless arguments anonymously  on the internet and speculations about the intelligence of people i don't know but i will say this, the indoctrination theory is a total rip of the last episode of "Roseanne" so there is that.
You basically claimed that anybody who liked the ending as it is now are stupid and don't appreciate attention to detail, i disagree.
I would rather have have someone who is creative and independent and willing to go in another direction say "hey wouldn't it be cool if this happened" make the adventures that i play rather then someone who makes things only to appease people who are never appeased.
I'm just happy and privileged that Bioware made a game where i could go on an adventure with my spaceman and woman in a cool ship, learn to know the galaxy and then save it.
I'm patiently waiting for the next journey.

Modifié par Darth_Atreyu, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:31 .

[Xilizhra]

To balance the endings. If you could live in all three endings, why would you commit genocide? They didn't want one ending to be the ending everyone chose, or have an ending nobody chose.

Because you killed the geth already, because you'd rather just destroy the Reapers and get it over with, because you want to ****** off the Catalyst, because you believe in IT, etc, etc...

Also, I think Bioware deserves respect for changing it up. For choosing something unexpected, for experimenting.

They would if it wasn't a complete piece of crap. Alas, however...

[Reorte]

WildHog70 wrote...

Not sure what happened, but I said that. I was specifically talking about Bioware doing something besides the "hero's ending" or whatever you want to call it. I think that video games are going to compete with movies as the main story telling medium of the 21st century. Video games are evolving to a point where the only limitation is the storytelling ability of their creators. Most of what I've seen on the forums seems to revolve around the idea of Shepard surviving to retire/move on with Shepard's LI. Support for Destroy, and Refuse. I admit I have chosen Destroy a couple of times just so my Shep could survive.

The main theme of ME3 is victory through sacrifice. Lt. Victus, Mordin and Eve, Legion. Shepard giving the ultimate sacrifice for the ultimate victory over the Reapers fits with this theme. I realize that there are other problems with the ending, but I don't have a problem with Shepard dying, and I appreciate that Bioware went in a different direction.

Your quoting went a bit awry there. Anyway...

Sure, I agree with your point about games becoming a valid and unique storytelling medium (competing with movies is understating it IMO). Mass Effect was the first thing I played that made me think that. The problem is precisely with the storytelling ability though. It's been pointed out often enough before that ME3's storytelling, particularly at the end, was out of kilter with the style of the rest of the series.

There was never a "victory through sacrifice" theme. The losses we have are mostly because it would look far too trite to win everything without anything ever going wrong (although in an ideal world it's always a possibility and the only reason a game should have of it not being there are that it's technically impossible to account for every single possible action). If there's a theme it's one of pulling everyone together to work together towards a common goal. You may as well say that's the theme for ME1 because you have to lose someone on Virmire and either the Council or a lot of Alliance ships at the end. But going on your assumption that Shepard dies (or is probably alive at best) because that's the theme is appalling storytelling - it always is if a plot event is clearly forced in simply to fit an agenda instead of flowing naturally out of the events of the story.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Shepard can already die twice in ME2, even had a fake death at the end of ME1, I wouldn't call that changing it up.

frostajulie wrote...

Poeple play games to win.

We were forced to lose.

We reacted.

Get used to it.

We're not going anywhere

Personally I'm almost burnt out to be honest, interest in this franchise dies little by little each day. Probably make it to Omega DLC but after that I'll likely go back to lurking myself. Would have been gone after Leviathan but Dinosaurs kept me around.

[WildHog70]

Xilizhra wrote...

To balance the endings. If you could live in all three endings, why would you commit genocide? They didn't want one ending to be the ending everyone chose, or have an ending nobody chose.

Because you killed the geth already, because you'd rather just destroy the Reapers and get it over with, because you want to ****** off the Catalyst, because you believe in IT, etc, etc...

Also, I think Bioware deserves respect for changing it up. For choosing something unexpected, for experimenting.

They would if it wasn't a complete piece of crap. Alas, however...

I've chosen Destroy because of IT, but post EC I just don't see it happening. I don't think Bioware could imagine anything like IT coming about. I'm just saying in general that the reason that the had Shep live in Destroy is to balance it. There are good (Role playing) reasons for choosing all of the endings.

[D24O]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Shepard can already die twice in ME2, even had a fake death at the end of ME1, I wouldn't call that changing it up.

Personally I'm almost burnt out to be honest, interest in this franchise dies little by little each day. Probably make it to Omega DLC but after that I'll likely go back to lurking myself. Would have been gone after Leviathan but Dinosaurs kept me around.

Lol this. I don't hate ME, but I just like to mess around here, and represend my Dinosaur/Lemon/Volus brothers and sisters in arms.

[XqctaX]

well for what its worth, my negativity is a lot less than a few days ago
not becouse im less upset or so ....

but i seem to be running out of ways to say things that dont come out too harsh
becouse for everything thats released, be it comics or dlcs or statements
it seems bioware really want this "not so good" ending to stay.

also they dont seem to be listening to anything when it comes to the
other issues like autodialogue,
or mp-maps and mp-survive mode beeing used in SP, kinda like the reuse of areas in DA2.

or what about the lack of more hubworld,
and dont even get me started on the weapon and armours and theres "rpg" functions
or the "mission-journal" or hearsay-quests...

or the ridiculous kai leng charachter assasination.

theres so many things they put in the game or left out
that.. well... just about anyone could figure out the fans would hate or want.
but they dont seem to want too aknowledge a single thing about it.

i mean come on. a real heros ending, reunion with li
is that really so hard to figure out fans want.
was this game made for fans or just made for the BW team themself...

so im kinda leening at.... what's they point anymore?
bw dont care. not a single bit. i havent or heard, read or in anyother way seen
the devs accually talking openly with fans ans answering the really toughf questions
about these matters.

so atm im waiting for omega dlc. ( youtube the leviathan, becouse. well i didnt like the story)
and simply hoping That will not be filled with autodialogue
and acually give us an extra hubworld, real big missions
and character exploration of aria.

and after that i think i'll leave. not in a protest, i just dont see the point anymore
becouse what i want isnt what bioware will do. so it will just be a negative experience for me to stay.

but at the same time. if those that acually like more autodialogue
and spacemagic and nonlogical lore breaks.... you get the picture
if those are the only ones left on the forums. BW games will suffer even more
from listening to those. that imho. so. well i havent decided. but omega will prolly be the last thing
i think i mgiht buy IF i like it.

then its on to other games other studios. new adventures

only positive thing out of this is koobimo    he should have written the ending for me3!

Modifié par XqctaX, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:42 .

[Jamie9]

Reorte wrote...
Your quoting went a bit awry there. Anyway...

Sure, I agree with your point about games becoming a valid and unique storytelling medium (competing with movies is understating it IMO). Mass Effect was the first thing I played that made me think that. The problem is precisely with the storytelling ability though. It's been pointed out often enough before that ME3's storytelling, particularly at the end, was out of kilter with the style of the rest of the series.

There was never a "victory through sacrifice" theme. The losses we have are mostly because it would look far too trite to win everything without anything ever going wrong (although in an ideal world it's always a possibility and the only reason a game should have of it not being there are that it's technically impossible to account for every single possible action). If there's a theme it's one of pulling everyone together to work together towards a common goal. You may as well say that's the theme for ME1 because you have to lose someone on Virmire and either the Council or a lot of Alliance ships at the end. But going on your assumption that Shepard dies (or is probably alive at best) because that's the theme is appalling storytelling - it always is if a plot event is clearly forced in simply to fit an agenda instead of flowing naturally out of the events of the story.

I know your post wasn't addressed at me, so I hope you'll not be too offended that I'm responding. I think there was a "victory through sacrifice" theme. This is best shown with the three main squadmate deaths in ME3:

Mordin, Legion and Thane.

Mordin sacrifices his life to allow the Genophage to be cured. This helps the Krogan immensely.

Legion sacrifices his life to allow the Geth to become fully sentient. This helps the Geth immensely.

Thane sacrifices his life to allow the Salarian Councillor to live. This helps the Council races immensely.

So, applying this to the ending. Shepard sacrifices his/her life to allows the galaxy to live. This helps the galaxy immensely.

EDIT: Format is ugly.

Modifié par Jamie9, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:43 .

[WildHog70]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Shepard can already die twice in ME2, even had a fake death at the end of ME1, I wouldn't call that changing it up.

frostajulie wrote...

Poeple play games to win.

We were forced to lose.

We reacted.

Get used to it.

We're not going anywhere

Personally I'm almost burnt out to be honest, interest in this franchise dies little by little each day. Probably make it to Omega DLC but after that I'll likely go back to lurking myself. Would have been gone after Leviathan but Dinosaurs kept me around.

I wasn't talking about changing it from the first ME games, but changing it up from all the rest of the games out there that have the protagonist living and being the super hero. I enjoy these games, but I like that Bioware was trying something new. We did win, but at a cost.

[Jamie9]

XqctaX wrote...
or what about the lack of more hubworld,

I know this is missing the point of your post, but ME1 only had one hub world.

ME2 is unique in that it has 3 hub worlds (Omega, Illium, Citadel)

[Reorte]

Darth_Atreyu wrote...

I don't like pointless arguments anonymously  on the internet and speculations about the intelligence of people i don't know but i will say this, the indoctrination theory is a total rip of the last episode of "Roseanne" so there is that.
You basically claimed that anybody who liked the ending as it is now are stupid and don't appreciate attention to detail, i disagree.
I would rather have have someone who is creative and independent say "hey wouldn't it be cool if this happened" make the adventures that i play rather then someone who makes things only to appease people who are never appeased.
I'm just happy and privileged that Bioware made a game where i could go on an adventure with my spaceman and woman in a cool ship, learn to know the galaxy and then save it.
I'm patiently waiting for the next journey.

Sometimes the answer to "Wouldn't it be cool if this happened?" is "No, it wouldn't." In this case it's pretty obvious that there has been very little attention to detail and thought about the consequences. I don't value creativity and independence over quality - get all of them and you've got something great but being different is worthless in its own right.

The people you claim are never appeased can be appeased - by producing a damned good product. Wouldn't you rather make them happy than people who would cheer you if you re-released Space Invaders? Shouldn't you always try to do the best job possible instead of "Nah, I'll just do enough to keep the easily pleased happy"?

I'm not sure why you've brought IT up.

[Reorte]

Jamie9 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
or what about the lack of more hubworld,

I know this is missing the point of your post, but ME1 only had one hub world.

ME2 is unique in that it has 3 hub worlds (Omega, Illium, Citadel)

You could go back to Feros and Novaria and use the shops there, not that there was a great deal of reason to do so. Not sure if you could do any missions on them after the main ones (e.g. Opold's package).

[Jamie9]

Reorte wrote...
You could go back to Feros and Novaria and use the shops there, not that there was a great deal of reason to do so. Not sure if you could do any missions on them after the main ones (e.g. Opold's package).

That doesn't make them hub worlds, just because you can return there. You could also return to every Uncharted World in the Mako.

IMO:

ME1 (Citadel)
ME2 (Citadel, Illium, Omega)
ME3 (Citadel, Omega?)

I really hope they incorporate Omega as a hub world.

[XqctaX]

Jamie9 wrote...

XqctaX wrote...
or what about the lack of more hubworld,

I know this is missing the point of your post, but ME1 only had one hub world.

ME2 is unique in that it has 3 hub worlds (Omega, Illium, Citadel)

your right. but for me atleast it would feel naturall to have the third installment not be lesser 
on something that is so clearly wanted.
i mean is there acually anyone that dont want more hubworlds?
to be able to acually explore vast areas of hub on homeworlds and such.

atleast to me the idea is that the last peice in a triology is suppose to be better / have more and not be lesser...


Edit: added:

what if in me3 you could trawel to all the homeworlds and see them in there pre invasionstate
get a sence of each races architecture, society and so on..
and mabey even see them after the invasion
after the game has been "completed/won" what iv we could go around and "see" things.
finnish up missions we missed or skiped or whatever, dlc.. and so on
imagination is the only limit and this took me what, 5 sec....

what if we could go back to hubworlds like illium and omega and so on,
but this time see other sides too these places, dig deeper into the different sides of these worlds..

Modifié par XqctaX, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:57 .

[drayfish]

Darth_Atreyu wrote...

I don't like pointless arguments anonymously  on the internet and speculations about the intelligence of people i don't know but i will say this, the indoctrination theory is a total rip of the last episode of "Roseanne" so there is that.
You basically claimed that anybody who liked the ending as it is now are stupid and don't appreciate attention to detail, i disagree.
I would rather have have someone who is creative and independent say "hey wouldn't it be cool if this happened" make the adventures that i play rather then someone who makes things only to appease people who are never appeased.
I'm just happy and privileged that Bioware made a game where i could go on an adventure with my spaceman and woman in a cool ship, learn to know the galaxy and then save it.
I'm patiently waiting for the next journey.

There is a difference between someone having an innovative, bold new idea, and someone just riffing.

This is meant to be a narrative.  A narrative can strike out in intriguing, unexpected directions, but there has to be some thematic unity and a logistical throughline or else it risks becoming mere free-association.  If there is no consistency of structure the whole thing becomes just 'a bunch of weird stuff what mighta happened', and the investment of the audience (perhaps not for all, but for many) is irreparably ruptured. 

When the central character starts behaving in an unrecognisable manner, when the whole plot is arbitrarily shifted in the final minutes, when you need a deus ex machina to explain the new direction your story is heading in (and to offer magical new ways to fix an imaginary problem), there is something severely wrong with the structure of your tale.*  Simply put, even if your idea is worth exploring, it has been handled in the most artless way possible, and so, is sure to alienate the audience's engagement in whatever it is you are trying to communicate.

(And this is all before even getting into the repulsive moral implications of the ending.)

I am very glad to hear that you got to enjoy your journey.  Your experience sounds very rewarding for you, and clearly the tale spoke to you in a way that it did not to others, but it is wrong to suggest that everyone who was unsatisfied with the ending simply wanted some mass-market dirge that connects the dots.  They wanted something that remained true to the text's own conventions and rules, or failing that, at least something that was recognisably the story they had been playing for the preceding years.


* These are literally guidelines that Aristotle defined in his Poetics thousands of years ago, and that have remained true for the entire history of narrative.

[Reorte]

Jamie9 wrote...

I know your post wasn't addressed at me, so I hope you'll not be too offended that I'm responding.

Posts are there for anyone who reads them to reply to. Putting aside the fact that I'm offended by most people anyway , if it was only for one person to reply to I'd have PMed them.

I think there was a "victory through sacrifice" theme. This is best shown with the three main squadmate deaths in ME3:

Mordin, Legion and Thane.

Mordin sacrifices his life to allow the Genophage to be cured. This helps the Krogan immensely.

Legion sacrifices his life to allow the Geth to become fully sentient. This helps the Geth immensely.

Thane sacrifices his life to allow the Salarian Councillor to live. This helps the Council races immensely.

So, applying this to the ending. Shepard sacrifices his/her life to allows the galaxy to live. This helps the galaxy immensely.

If it's true that those were intended to be a theme then it just makes Shepard's sacrifice forced to fit a theme, which is bad writing (Legion's as well because that's highly contrived too). Thane was dying anyway, he just went out in style instead of lingering on for a bit.

Personally I saw those deaths as being there simply to give a bit more emotional impact to the events and to stop everything from looking too easy.

[Jamie9]

XqctaX wrote...
your right. but for me atleast it would feel naturall to have the third installment not be lesser 
on something that is so clearly wanted.
i mean is there acually anyone that dont want more hubworlds?
to be able to acually explore vast areas of hub on homeworlds and such.

atleast to me the idea is that the last peice in a triology is suppose to be better / have more and not be lesser...

You're right. I would be annoyed, only the Citadel was a really good hub world.

As I said above, I hope that the new Omega DLC adds Omega as a hub world.

[Reorte]

Jamie9 wrote...

As I said above, I hope that the new Omega DLC adds Omega as a hub world.

Finally, something I can agree with Omega's atmosphere was amazing.

[drayfish]

D24O wrote...

Lol this. I don't hate ME, but I just like to mess around here, and represend my Dinosaur/Lemon/Volus brothers and sisters in arms.

Leaellynosaura for the WIN!

[GreyLycanTrope]

D24O wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Shepard can already die twice in ME2, even had a fake death at the end of ME1, I wouldn't call that changing it up.

Personally I'm almost burnt out to be honest, interest in this franchise dies little by little each day. Probably make it to Omega DLC but after that I'll likely go back to lurking myself. Would have been gone after Leviathan but Dinosaurs kept me around.

Lol this. I don't hate ME, but I just like to mess around here, and represend my Dinosaur/Lemon/Volus brothers and sisters in arms.

It's much appreciated, I mainly come here for the lols now. My friends list consists of people who have made this whole experiance not only bearable but down right entertaining. I have much love for each one of you. I by no stretch of the imagination hate ME, I hate the ending because I believe ME deserved a better one. So no I don't hate it but at this point the love is kinda deflated. Still much thanks and love for the lols

[Jamie9]

Reorte wrote...
If it's true that those were intended to be a theme then it just makes Shepard's sacrifice forced to fit a theme, which is bad writing (Legion's as well because that's highly contrived too). Thane was dying anyway, he just went out in style instead of lingering on for a bit.

Personally I saw those deaths as being there simply to give a bit more emotional impact to the events and to stop everything from looking too easy.

I think the theme fits the "galaxy is about to become extinct" thing that's happening in ME3.

Mordin's sacrifice completed his character arc fantastically. He repented for his past mistakes. Legion's actually contradicts ME2 a little. I still enjoy it as an emotional moment, but it doesn't make quite so much sense.

As you said, Thane would have rathered die due to combat, than from some disease. Surely the best way to die is by saving another? A great irony too, in that he was an assassin. It was his job to take lives, yet he ends his own by saving another.

Shepard? I think there was adequate foreshadowing in ME3. I suspected that Shepard would die, especially after hearing the squadmates' goodbyes on Earth.

Basically, I think the writers wrote the story with Shepard dying in mind. If this was a linear game, that would be the only option. Since it isn't, Shepard can survive.

[AresKeith]

D24O wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Shepard can already die twice in ME2, even had a fake death at the end of ME1, I wouldn't call that changing it up.

Personally I'm almost burnt out to be honest, interest in this franchise dies little by little each day. Probably make it to Omega DLC but after that I'll likely go back to lurking myself. Would have been gone after Leviathan but Dinosaurs kept me around.

Lol this. I don't hate ME, but I just like to mess around here, and represend my Dinosaur/Lemon/Volus brothers and sisters in arms.

Dinosaurs on Palaven?