398 réponses à ce sujet

[Toxic Waste]

The game has problems and plotholes and I will voice them as the oppertunity arises or as I see fit. But I will not lie, I still love the game and can't stop playing it. Problems I just try to ignore and plotholes I find a way to fix them (by using my thought processors) so they make sence to me at least.
When I point out problems and plotholes I do hope that BW sees them and takes them into account for whatever they plan next. And I personally look forward to the next DLC.

Hay BioWare, in the next DLC can you give the single player a Typhoon? I would love one of those.

[EagleScoutDJB]

I didn't like the ending and the constant negativity bothers me too. I hardly post anything anymore, even in threads that I agree with.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Ar first I felt confused, I knew about the ending months before it happened and I never understood the extreme reaction it received. I honestly had no idea why people were going out of their way to destroy one of the best franchises to happen to gaming (still don't).

Then I realised that a lot of the anti-enders use double standards, deceit and emotional manipulation in an attempt to try and justify their insane whining, and now when I come across some of the worst ones I point this out and watch them squirm and stumble over words as they fail to justify their actions and unnecessary negativity.

We need to show Bioware that we don't want gaming to go backwards, which is what the anti-enders want.

Curses you have discovered our dastardly scheme. Our plan has always been to support this franchise for five years straight and then just when Bioware lets their guard we start complaining about the last ten minutes in an attempt to change it and to suddenly make the game worse for everybody involved. What, you thought the Extended Cut got some people to like the ending? It was a smokescreen to fool the fanbase and media! You knowing our plans changes nothing however the wheels are already turning, there is no turning back. We'll make sure Mass Effect is ruined forever, but just to be on the safeside allow me tie you to the railroad track.

[WildHog70]

Nightwriter wrote...

WildHog70 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

Personally part of me is afraid Bioware may actually listen to this mob and take steps backwards, in the kind of games they deliver. 
 I would be lying if i said i was never dissapointed with Bioware's games. But despite certain failures in execution and 
rather than delivering yet another Lord of the rings or Star wars esqe story, they are choosing to tell a differnt kind of story in their games and i can appriciate that.

So what do the rest of you feel about the continuing negativity ?

Do you think its a sign that Bioware may be better off giving us a more tradational Hero's Journey, or should the rest of us (Clearly the minortiy on these forums atleast) Be more vocal or supportive of Bioware  in the face of all this negativity.

I really have no idea what you're talking about with "different kind of story." ME3's story was very straightforward. It was exactly like LotR and Star Wars. Gather allies. Fight the war.

The ending critics aren't traditionalists and the ending supporters aren't reformists.

ME3 definitely had some inspiration from other sci-fi/fantasy stories. But that kind of story hasn't been told much in video games. Most video games are about being the ultimate hero who achieves everything, saves everyone. Video games are changing, and Mass Effect is part of that change. There are problems in the ending not related to this, but this seems to be the biggest complaint of the community.

Edit: Spelling

My complaint is that if they wanted to tell a "different story" then they needed to start with a new IP or a new protagonist, because for the past 2.9 games of the ME trilogy, you played a standard "ultimate" action hero who often saves everyone.

People do nothing but praise you for what a great action hero you are, actually. You run around sleeping with sexy people, collecting fame and adulation, cheating death, solving conflicts no one else can, and somehow winning fights against hundreds of enemies per wave.

And now, in literally like the last ten minutes of the entire series, people are acting as though BioWare broke new ground.

Yes, yes, let's applaud them for taking that last ten minutes in a completely different direction.

I don't know. I think with a name like Shepard, some ultimate sacrifice was intended from the beginning. Obviously named after Alan Shepard, but still with Christ-like connotations. I wouldn't be surprised if he was supposed to die in the Dark Energy story line that was set up.

I disagree with your estimation of 90% of ME3 not falling in line with Shepard's death. The dreams and your allies' deaths do a pretty good job of foreshadowing your sacrifice.

[dgcatanisiri]

I didn't really mind the original endings that much, and the EC made improvements I agreed with, so I've been satisfied. The constant, incessant, non-stop complaining about the ending, not any actual discussion or debate, but straight up derailing of other topics with statements of 'why bother about this? The ending still sucks' as the only word that they offer, and all of the hatred that has been and in some cases continues to be tossed around makes it difficult for me to actually involve myself around here anymore.

And the worst part about it is that this is the only place I really have to geek out about Mass Effect. The one person I know in real life who's played the game says he's Mass Effect'd out at the moment, so talking to him is going to be mostly one sided on my part. I want to discuss other things, but I can't go anywhere in this forum without coming across hate. It's really disheartening.

[WildHog70]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

drayfish wrote...

WildHog70 wrote...

ME3 definitely had some inspiration from other sci-fi/fantasy stories. But that kind of story hasn't been told much in video games. Most video games are about being the ultimate hero who achieves everything, saves everyone. Video games are changing, and Mass Effect is part of that change. There are problems in the ending not related to this, but this seems to be the biggest complaint of the community.

I'm actually okay with videogames not becoming exercises in moral relativity and love-notes to eugenics.

The media often criticises the way that videogames supposedly desensitise players to violence and sex; I think engineering texts to desensitise us to ethical violations are far more concerning, and not really a direction I'd like to see any form of Art pursue.

You really need to be exposed to other forms of media then. It's actually insane that you think media shouldn't be allowed to protray anything that is a negative to the real world as anything other than what you consider to be a satisfactory negative in that medias universe.

What do you mean, specifically, when you say moral relativity and love notes to eugenics? If you mean Synthesis, I don't really see the connection to eugenics, except indirectly. Synthesis is the transhuman ideal. Transhumanism and eugenics have some historical connections, especially via the Progressive movement. But Synthesis doesn't involve some artificial Darwinian selection. My apologies if you meant something else.

[drayfish]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

drayfish wrote...

I'm actually okay with videogames not becoming exercises in moral relativity and love-notes to eugenics.

The media often criticises the way that videogames supposedly desensitise players to violence and sex; I think engineering texts to desensitise us to ethical violations are far more concerning, and not really a direction I'd like to see any form of Art pursue.

You really need to be exposed to other forms of media then. It's actually insane that you think media shouldn't be allowed to protray anything that is a negative to the real world as anything other than what you consider to be a satisfactory negative in that medias universe.

Thanks for the patronising tone, but yes, I have been exposed to some narratives before.  

Frankly, I'm not even sure what you are saying here (so forgive me if I'm slightly off topic), but if the 'real world' to which you are referring is the actual real world in which we all live, then you might want to look up the term 'propaganda'.  When your fiction tips over into blatantly advocating war crimes (which is what the player is forced to do in order to 'win'), and then without reservation celebrates those actions, showing people crying out in bliss that they occurred, celebrating the perpetrator's name for generations as the hero who 'did what needed to be done', openly glossing over the darker implications of each choice, then you are sending a horrifying message that yes I believe is a dangerous and irresponsible one.

If Bioware had have wanted to make a genuine and artistic presentation of such moral complexity there would not be a slew of gushy slides commending the player for the actions they took to defeat the enemy.  There would be actual depth and humility and poignancy to those final moments, not: everything is fine, don't bother looking at the pile of dead Geth over there.

Even in a text like The Aeneid, a story detailing an invasion and war written by the invaders themselves, there is more compassion and complexity shown for the vagaries or war.  Indeed, I find it extraordinary that you should agree the text is saying as much, but just dismiss it as 'real world'.  When people stop expecting texts to present moral horror with any weight or consequence, then our text truly have lost all meaning.

[Clayless]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Ar first I felt confused, I knew about the ending months before it happened and I never understood the extreme reaction it received. I honestly had no idea why people were going out of their way to destroy one of the best franchises to happen to gaming (still don't).

Then I realised that a lot of the anti-enders use double standards, deceit and emotional manipulation in an attempt to try and justify their insane whining, and now when I come across some of the worst ones I point this out and watch them squirm and stumble over words as they fail to justify their actions and unnecessary negativity.

We need to show Bioware that we don't want gaming to go backwards, which is what the anti-enders want.

Curses you have discovered our dastardly scheme. Our plan has always been to support this franchise for five years straight and then just when Bioware lets their guard we start complaining about the last ten minutes in an attempt to change it and to suddenly make the game worse for everybody involved. What, you thought the Extended Cut got some people to like the ending? It was a smokescreen to fool the fanbase and media! You knowing our plans changes nothing however the wheels are already turning, there is no turning back. We'll make sure Mass Effect is ruined forever, but just to be on the safeside allow me tie you to the railroad track.

There's complaining about an ending, and then there's the reaction ME3 received.

The rabid, irrational hatred is still echoing around these parts 6 months later, and it's doubtful some of the damage that "fans" caused in their attempts to destroy Bioware can be repaired.

[GreyLycanTrope]

^
That accusation is as cartoonish as my retort.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:16 .

[drayfish]

WildHog70 wrote...

What do you mean, specifically, when you say moral relativity and love notes to eugenics? If you mean Synthesis, I don't really see the connection to eugenics, except indirectly. Synthesis is the transhuman ideal. Transhumanism and eugenics have some historical connections, especially via the Progressive movement. But Synthesis doesn't involve some artificial Darwinian selection. My apologies if you meant something else.

Sorry I wasn't clear before in my phrasing.

Transhumanism (quite a beautiful concept) is about ascending beyond the limitations of the biological; but in most cases, in order for it to have meaning, it is a gradual and steady process that is achieved willingly.  Humanity evolves beyond its current state into a oneness with the technologies to which we have given life. 

Imposing it upon everyone without their consent, and at the whim of a genocidal maniac who believes that it is the only solution to stop a race war, to me makes it a form of eugenic purgation - and it robs the original premise of the evolutionary poetry (both physical and ideological) that it represents.

[WildHog70]

drayfish wrote...

WildHog70 wrote...

What do you mean, specifically, when you say moral relativity and love notes to eugenics? If you mean Synthesis, I don't really see the connection to eugenics, except indirectly. Synthesis is the transhuman ideal. Transhumanism and eugenics have some historical connections, especially via the Progressive movement. But Synthesis doesn't involve some artificial Darwinian selection. My apologies if you meant something else.

Sorry I wasn't clear before in my phrasing.

Transhumanism (quite a beautiful concept) is about ascending beyond the limitations of the biological; but in most cases, in order for it to have meaning, it is a gradual and steady process that is achieved willingly.  Humanity evolves beyond its current state into a oneness with the technologies to which we have given life. 

Imposing it upon everyone without their consent, and at the whim of a genocidal maniac who believes that it is the only solution to stop a race war, to me makes it a form of eugenic purgation - and it robs the original premise of the evolutionary poetry (both physical and ideological) that it represents.

Thanks for clearing that up. I've never been a big fan of transhumanism. I doubt tech will ever change human selfishness. But I'm not sure Synthesis achieves a true tranhumanist state. I think it opens up the possibility for one. Doesn't EDI say something to that effect in the epilogue? So synthesis could be seen as giving others a choice for a future.

Also, in Destroy, you do have some sort of rememberance of the dead. But yeah, probably the most morally praiseworthy choice is destroy, depending on your interpretation of how Shep controls the Reapers.

[Clayless]

drayfish wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You really need to be exposed to other forms of media then. It's actually insane that you think media shouldn't be allowed to protray anything that is a negative to the real world as anything other than what you consider to be a satisfactory negative in that medias universe.

Thanks for the patronising tone, but yes, I have been exposed to some narratives before.  

Frankly, I'm not even sure what you are saying here (so forgive me if I'm slightly off topic), but if the 'real world' to which you are referring is the actual real world in which we all live, then you might want to look up the term 'propaganda'.  When your fiction tips over into blatantly advocating war crimes (which is what the player is forced to do in order to 'win'), and then without reservation celebrates those actions, showing people crying out in bliss that they occurred, celebrating the perpetrator's name for generations as the hero who 'did what needed to be done', openly glossing over the darker implications of each choice, then you are sending a horrifying message that yes I believe is a dangerous and irresponsible one.

If Bioware had have wanted to make a genuine and artistic presentation of such moral complexity there would not be a slew of gushy slides commending the player for the actions they took to defeat the enemy.  There would be actual depth and humility and poignancy to those final moments, not: everything is fine, don't bother looking at the pile of dead Geth over there.

Even in a text like The Aeneid, a story detailing an invasion and war written by the invaders themselves, there is more compassion and complexity shown for the vagaries or war.  Indeed, I find it extraordinary that you should agree the text is saying as much, but just dismiss it as 'real world'.  When people stop expecting texts to present moral horror with any weight or consequence, then our text truly have lost all meaning.

Wait you think this is propaganda? I hate to break it to you but nothing in the Mass Effect universe actually exists, no one actually died and none of that stuff really happened, and I find it even more bizarre that you believe it to be propaganda.

Thinking ficticious media should conform to your moral standards, and never show anything that's considered negative in a positive light, is absolutely insane. There's no other word for it, it's insane.

I've seen mass murderers who are eventually given a sympathetic light and happy endings, I read about kids who killed other kids to survive celebrated for the rest of their lives, I've read about places where slavery and destruction are considered perfectly normal things even by the good guys standards, and of which they do nothing to try and change that for the entire story, in literature for teenagers of all things.

Saying that media should conform to a social standard is just plain crazy.

[Mahrac]

drayfish wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: People who like the ending:
[snip]

There's nothing there...

But it leaves a shadow... Aha! The people who liked the ending are so intelligent they invented cloaking technology to hide themselves from the idiotic anti-enders, who are sure to get themselves killed.

You should've just said you meant that. It would have been easier on everyone.

Or else that's a stain on the ground left when something when horribly wrong...

Damnit, you Pro-enders!  Why did you ingenious bastards have to try to play God?!  You were like Icarus, and flew too close to the sun!

...Speaking of which, listen up Anti-enders - I'm calling off the research on the anti-gravity ray.  Don't ask why, just scrap it.  I have seen some things this day.  Dark things.  Things of which I shall not speak.

So, uh... what should I do with the prototype?

[XXIceColdXX]

Not sure if trolling......

[Jamie9]

Mahrac wrote...
So, uh... what should I do with the prototype?

*puts on deep, epic Lord of the Rings voice*

DESTROY IT!!!

[Mahrac]

Jamie9 wrote...

Mahrac wrote...
So, uh... what should I do with the prototype?

*puts on deep, epic Lord of the Rings voice*

DESTROY IT!!!

But it's so beautiful. My precious.

[iloveexplosives]

Humakt83 wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...
So what do the rest of you feel about the continuing negativity ?

I'm immune but I do not hold whiners in high regard. Yes, there is some good critique, but most of it is born out of ignorance and arrogance. And it is too emotion-driven.

i agree plus most of the haters start to make personel insults when people disagree with them from what ive seen. the ending is not going to change no matter how many threads are turned into anti-ending/anti-bioware bashing partys. stop trying to get your 15 min of fame and move on. (not that the supporters are better some are just as bad as haters when it comes to the insults)

everyone needs to realise that it is a game and if you dont like it dont play it, dont bash it for 6 months and try to ruin it for the rest of us, the forum is always going to represent the small mionoraty of the fan base who have the greatest emotional investment in it and can never be taken as a true sample of the majoraty so just because a lot of people on the internet 'hate it' doesnt mean that most do. 

after all what is posted here is opinion not fact, large numbers of people with that opinion doesnt change it.
this is for both the haters and supporters.

Modifié par iloveexplosives, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:41 .

[Ghost]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

I didn't really mind the original endings that much, and the EC made improvements I agreed with, so I've been satisfied. The constant, incessant, non-stop complaining about the ending, not any actual discussion or debate, but straight up derailing of other topics with statements of 'why bother about this? The ending still sucks' as the only word that they offer, and all of the hatred that has been and in some cases continues to be tossed around makes it difficult for me to actually involve myself around here anymore.

And the worst part about it is that this is the only place I really have to geek out about Mass Effect. The one person I know in real life who's played the game says he's Mass Effect'd out at the moment, so talking to him is going to be mostly one sided on my part. I want to discuss other things, but I can't go anywhere in this forum without coming across hate. It's really disheartening.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Jamie9 wrote...

Mahrac wrote...
So, uh... what should I do with the prototype?

*puts on deep, epic Lord of the Rings voice*

DESTROY IT!!!

*Isildur whisper*
....no.

[drayfish]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

[Wait you think this is propaganda? I hate to break it to you but nothing in the Mass Effect universe actually exists, no one actually died and none of that stuff really happened, and I find it even more bizarre that you believe it to be propaganda.

Thinking ficticious media should conform to your moral standards, and never show anything that's considered negative in a positive light, is absolutely insane. There's no other word for it, it's insane.

I've seen mass murderers who are eventually given a sympathetic light and happy endings, I read about kids who killed other kids to survive celebrated for the rest of their lives, I've read about places where slavery and destruction are considered perfectly normal things even by the good guys standards, and of which they do nothing to try and change that for the entire story, in literature for teenagers of all things.

Saying that media should conform to a social standard is just plain crazy.

If nothing in the game has any weight, significance or thematic 'truth' because it is all, ultimately a fiction, then why are you so upset?  If people are merely shadowboxing inconsequentialities then it should not matter at all whether people like, dislike or laugh openly at the material presented.  Do you know why people call Atlas Shrugged propaganda?  ...It never actually happened, and yet...

And although I don't recognise any of the books that you just mentioned (perhaps Dexter?), I would have to ask, did any of those texts purport to be about 'hope' and 'unity' and winning a war against intolerance and genocide?  Because that's what Mass Effect presented itself to be (up until the final ten minutes, in which it abandoned every one of those principles), so applying the expectations of an entirely different text, with an utterly separate agenda does not seem to be that revealing. 

(Also, if you read such texts for fun, or to reveal anything meaningful about yourself and your experience of the world, I would descibe that as 'insane'.)

Modifié par drayfish, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:46 .

[Iakus]

WildHog70 wrote...

I don't know. I think with a name like Shepard, some ultimate sacrifice was intended from the beginning. Obviously named after Alan Shepard, but still with Christ-like connotations. I wouldn't be surprised if he was supposed to die in the Dark Energy story line that was set up.

I disagree with your estimation of 90% of ME3 not falling in line with Shepard's death. The dreams and your allies' deaths do a pretty good job of foreshadowing your sacrifice.

As opposed to Eve's lesson with the crystal.

And all the allies you can save

And Shepard's entire history going back to before ME1 even started showing Shepard surviving challenge after challenge.

[Jamie9]

drayfish wrote...
(Also, if you read such texts for fun, or to reveal anything meaningful about yourself and your experience of the world, I would descibe that as 'insane'.)

Having read fiction covering such concepts, I can tell you it is most certainly intriguing. And enjoyable.

I respect your opinion completely. If you don't feel comfortable with that kind of content, then that is fine. But if you've not even considered it, I'd implore you to at least try. You might be surprised what kind of thought processes it opens up.

Modifié par Jamie9, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[WildHog70]

iakus wrote...

WildHog70 wrote...

I don't know. I think with a name like Shepard, some ultimate sacrifice was intended from the beginning. Obviously named after Alan Shepard, but still with Christ-like connotations. I wouldn't be surprised if he was supposed to die in the Dark Energy story line that was set up.

I disagree with your estimation of 90% of ME3 not falling in line with Shepard's death. The dreams and your allies' deaths do a pretty good job of foreshadowing your sacrifice.

As opposed to Eve's lesson with the crystal.

And all the allies you can save

And Shepard's entire history going back to before ME1 even started showing Shepard surviving challenge after challenge.

I think Eve's story applies to the ending between the run to the Conduit and overcoming TIM. He's closer to defeat and death than we've ever seen him. He's desparately looking for a path to victory. For Eve, victory meant survival, a tie-in to the Krogan genophage arc. For Shepard, victory does not necessarily mean survival, but saving the galaxy/destroying the Reapers (depending on the player's role playing).

[drayfish]

Jamie9 wrote...

drayfish wrote...
(Also, if you read such texts for fun, or to reveal anything meaningful about yourself and your experience of the world, I would descibe that as 'insane'.)

Having read fiction covering such concepts, I can tell you it is most certainly intriguing. And enjoyable.

I respect your opinion completely. If you don't feel comfortable with that kind of content, then that is fine. But if you've not even considered it, I'd implore you to at least try. You might be surprised what kind of thought processes it opens up.

Just to be clear: there are a great many fictions, films, philosophical treatises that explore these themes admirably, that play out the darker shades of human experience in supple, subtle and haunting ways that I enjoy immensely.  In many ways it is only by exploring the monstrous within us all that we can better comprehend our more angelic natures, and what we ultimately hold dear. 

Indeed, I cited Dexter before, and what makes him compelling is that there is goodness within an insatiable brutal beast.  In American Psycho Bateman is a response to a desensitised mass-culture that has lost touched with it's core empathetic impulse.  The Heart of Darkness (and by extension Apocalypse Now) is a descent into a mind warped by violence, imperialism and hubris.  All have profound things to say that reveal much.

My point is that this was never the intent of Mass Effect, nor the Shepard character, and to switch gears so dramatically in the concluding moments, and with so little acknowledgement of the complexities that such a shift requires (again, the happy, happy, joy, joy ending) utterly obliterates any such revelation.  If Bioware had intended to sour the hero's journey to drift into abject moral horror, that was an artless time to do it, and a comically irresponsible way to present the results.

Modifié par drayfish, 26 septembre 2012 - 04:05 .

[Sanunes]

I have no problem with most of the negative comments for people are voicing their concerns or issues with the game. When personal attacks start or when people derail conversations intentionally that is when it becomes something I don't like, but then I just avoid those threads or avoid the people that post those type of posts all the time.