398 réponses à ce sujet

[Tazzmission]

i loved the ec now as far as everyone else go's everyone has a pro or con about it

[B.Shep]

Sanunes wrote...

I have no problem with most of the negative comments for people are voicing their concerns or issues with the game. When personal attacks start or when people derail conversations intentionally that is when it becomes something I don't like, but then I just avoid those threads or avoid the people that post those type of posts all the time.

I try to do the same.

[Mcfly616]

As someone that used to hate on Bioware and bash the original endings daily....idk. I guess I find it pathetic. I had written off the EC the moment I realized IT wasn't true and the Starchild wasn't being removed. But to my surprise, the EC was awesome(in my eyes)....

However, even if I wasn't satisfied with EC I was going to move on. I wasn't going to care anymore. I was expecting to hate it. I was dreading it. And I was making plans to play other games.

Everybody has their opinion....I just find the people still complaining and nitpicking about the same things they know will never change, idk....its kinda like sitting and being bitter and letting old wounds fester....its kinda pathetic.

EC was the end of the line one way or another for me. If I liked it, it would reaffirm my faith in Bioware and the dlc coming afterwards would just be icing on the cake. If I hated it, I'd be playing other games.....not wasting my time here, b*tching on a daily basis, while other people are trying to simply discuss the game.

I tend to avoid the forum before I start playing Mass Effect. Even when I see something new and want to discuss it with the community, I just stop myself from coming here and seeing thread after thread of mindless hateful comments. No discussion really. Just the same nitpicks and negativity thread after thread.

If I hated something and knew it wasn't going to change, I wouldve bailed a long time ago. Like a bad relationship. Just cut that right outta my life. Time is short.

[Clayless]

drayfish wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

[Wait you think this is propaganda? I hate to break it to you but nothing in the Mass Effect universe actually exists, no one actually died and none of that stuff really happened, and I find it even more bizarre that you believe it to be propaganda.

Thinking ficticious media should conform to your moral standards, and never show anything that's considered negative in a positive light, is absolutely insane. There's no other word for it, it's insane.

I've seen mass murderers who are eventually given a sympathetic light and happy endings, I read about kids who killed other kids to survive celebrated for the rest of their lives, I've read about places where slavery and destruction are considered perfectly normal things even by the good guys standards, and of which they do nothing to try and change that for the entire story, in literature for teenagers of all things.

Saying that media should conform to a social standard is just plain crazy.

If nothing in the game has any weight, significance or thematic 'truth' because it is all, ultimately a fiction, then why are you so upset?  If people are merely shadowboxing inconsequentialities then it should not matter at all whether people like, dislike or laugh openly at the material presented.  Do you know why people call Atlas Shrugged propaganda?  ...It never actually happened, and yet...

And although I don't recognise any of the books that you just mentioned (perhaps Dexter?), I would have to ask, did any of those texts purport to be about 'hope' and 'unity' and winning a war against intolerance and genocide?  Because that's what Mass Effect presented itself to be (up until the final ten minutes, in which it abandoned every one of those principles), so applying the expectations of an entirely different text, with an utterly separate agenda does not seem to be that revealing. 

(Also, if you read such texts for fun, or to reveal anything meaningful about yourself and your experience of the world, I would descibe that as 'insane'.)

I find it strange that you think I'm "upset", you give yourself far too much credit. I cannot stress this point enough by the way, me thinking that you're insane for believing media should follow current social, political and/or moral attitudes, and for believing Mass Effect (and by extension those that don't) to be "propaganda" does not make me upset, it just makes me bewildered, and I guess amused slightly. Really, I cannot stress how far from the truth your "upset" comment is, so that's why I've given this it's very own paragraph, to make sure you understand.

As for the media I referenced: Lost, The Hunger Games and the Mortal Engines Quartet, as they're all incredibly popular references which seems like a good comparison to an incredibly popular game like Mass Effect. Hope and unity from the mass murdering psychopath who gets arguably the second happiest ending? Nope. Hope and unity in the The Hunger Games? Nope (though the 2nd and 3rd seem to be delving into that a bit more). Hope and unity in the Mortal Engines Quartet? Nope.

But lets not deviate from the point here, which is how you think media shouldn't protray what you consider to be negative things in a positive light without having a negative spin on it, and how I think that's tin-foil hat wearing crazy.

[Cigarette Smoking Man]

WildHog70 wrote...

iakus wrote...

WildHog70 wrote...

I don't know. I think with a name like Shepard, some ultimate sacrifice was intended from the beginning. Obviously named after Alan Shepard, but still with Christ-like connotations. I wouldn't be surprised if he was supposed to die in the Dark Energy story line that was set up.

I disagree with your estimation of 90% of ME3 not falling in line with Shepard's death. The dreams and your allies' deaths do a pretty good job of foreshadowing your sacrifice.

As opposed to Eve's lesson with the crystal.

And all the allies you can save

And Shepard's entire history going back to before ME1 even started showing Shepard surviving challenge after challenge.

I think Eve's story applies to the ending between the run to the Conduit and overcoming TIM. He's closer to defeat and death than we've ever seen him. He's desparately looking for a path to victory. For Eve, victory meant survival, a tie-in to the Krogan genophage arc. For Shepard, victory does not necessarily mean survival, but saving the galaxy/destroying the Reapers (depending on the player's role playing).

shep·herd  (shprd)n.1. One who herds, guards, and tends sheep.2. One who cares for and guides a group of people, as a minister or teacher.3. A German shepherd.tr.v. shep·herd·ed, shep·herd·ing, shep·herds To herd, guard, tend, or guide as or in the manner of a shepherd.

Those connotations are completely dependant on the player.

Modifié par Cigarette Smoking Man, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[MegaSovereign]

I don't think it's fair to those who want a legitimate (not necessarily pro/anti-ending) discussion on BSN to always have those spam posts about "art" and how EA is the devil.

I also don't particularly like seeing people insult the writing team.

[Hey]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't think it's fair to those who want a legitimate (not necessarily pro/anti-ending) discussion on BSN to always have those spam posts about "art" and how EA is the devil.

I also don't particularly like seeing people insult the writing team.

yeah, pretty much this.

but some of the stuff I read is really funny so if your going to do it - come correct.

[Peranor]

This isn't the mutual admiration society. It's a discussion forum.
Different opinions regarding the ending and other aspects of the game on this forum is inevitable.

[drayfish]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I find it strange that you think I'm "upset", you give yourself far too much credit. I cannot stress this point enough by the way, me thinking that you're insane for believing media should follow current social, political and/or moral attitudes, and for believing Mass Effect (and by extension those that don't) to be "propaganda" does not make me upset, it just makes me bewildered, and I guess amused slightly. Really, I cannot stress how far from the truth your "upset" comment is, so that's why I've given this it's very own paragraph, to make sure you understand.

As for the media I referenced: Lost, The Hunger Games and the Mortal Engines Quartet, as they're all incredibly popular references which seems like a good comparison to an incredibly popular game like Mass Effect. Hope and unity from the mass murdering psychopath who gets arguably the second happiest ending? Nope. Hope and unity in the The Hunger Games? Nope (though the 2nd and 3rd seem to be delving into that a bit more). Hope and unity in the Mortal Engines Quartet? Nope.

But lets not deviate from the point here, which is how you think media shouldn't protray what you consider to be negative things in a positive light without having a negative spin on it, and how I think that's tin-foil hat wearing crazy.

I never said that I had made you upset.  Dear God, I'm not that much of an egomaniac.  I neither want to make you upset, nor think I have the capacity.  If I gave you the impression I was 'Nah, nah, naaahing' I genuinely apologise - it was not my meaning.

What I was referencing was your clear frustration with fans who do not share your personal love of the text, and who would wish to question its connotations.  Truly, I don't mean this as an insult, or an attempt to belittle you: some of your posts come across as though you are genuinely frustrated that there are people who do not feel the way that you do and who are not willing to just sit silently and accept it.  People are going to have different views, however, and it is not their responsibility to just run away and hide if they feel so.

Secondly, I am likewise at no point stating that texts have to be okayed by my personal 'morality filter' before they are allowed to be released to the world.  That is patently absurd, and again, nothing I have ever expressed.  I am saying that fiction - in all its forms - has a responsibility to be mindful of the message that it communicates, lest it slip into advocating, not exploring, ethically questionable behaviour.  

In each of the texts that you mentioned (except perhaps for the Mortal Engines Quartet - I'm not familiar with that) there is a moral code that remains constant, and in which the characters operate, even if their larger world shows evidence of being corrupted or debased.  We follow these characters in their journeys because they struggle to exist in a world that questions what they hold sacred, testing how far they will bend before what is most precious to them is destroyed.  At no point does Jack in LOST decide that the only way to defeat the Smoke Monster is to start sacrificing people to it arbitrarily; in The Hunger Games the first act that kicks the narrative into action is a character sacrificing herself so that another will not have to suffer.

The Iliad, For Whom the Bell Tolls, Catch 22, these are all narratives that genuinely represent the complexities of war, and the weight of moral compromise.  In contrast, in Mass Effect, morally questionable acts are not weighed and measured.  There is no consequence or depth to the events depicted.  You are simply cheered and told: 'Good Job.  Stripping people's freedoms away was the only way to achieve peace.'

Indeed, I find it unsettling that a racist, egomaniacal zealot could breeze through the end of Mass Effect 3, compromise none of his beliefs and get slapped on the back for being the hero that this universe needed.  That does not suggest moral complexity to me (there is a reason that Hanibal Lecter is not the central protagonist of The Hunger Games); instead it is lazy and vile.

[Bill Casey]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I quite simply don't care anymore. People need to move on now, nothing is going to change. If you can't tolerate it now, you most likely never will.

PSHHH

easy to say since we all know you got the ending you wanted

At first we thought it was kinda ill when
We saw that you were like a billion
And still out tryna' make a killin'
Get back to the museum

D-I-N-O-S-A-U-R
You are a dinosaur

[KLGChaos]

While I though the endings were horrible, I only visit the forums irregularly to check up on news and occasionally post. I have no problems with people liking or disliking the endings, as long as they keep things civil and are able to put up a good debate about what they like/hate about them.

Personally, my biggest beef was that the ending catered to only one part of the population-- those who like the bittersweet-- after we were told through the games that it was our story, our choices would matter, etc. Instead of making several different endings that served those who prefer the happy, the bittersweet or the downright bleak, they chose that one type in an effort to give the choices some semblance of "meaning". Understandable, that they didn't want to make it easy on the player and wanted to evoke some emotions, but after doing such a great job with the illusion of choice through the first few games, the last one was just extremely blatantly forced upon you. When a choice is forced, it's no longer much of a choice.

The games up until the end were brilliant, and I'd play them 100 times over, but I won't finish ME3 again and instead, I keep my own head cannon about how things turn out.

In the end, it was just a matter of too many promises to the fans that they didn't keep. Kind of like the Fable series, but with a more hardcore crowd. And when you have a reputation like Bioware's, it's going to take a major hit when you don't deliver on the promises made.

Forums are places for discussion and there's going to be negativity on every forum. The best we can do, whether you're for or against the endings, is try to keep things civil.

[Ieldra]

Gogzilla wrote...
So what do the rest of you feel about the continuing negativity ?

It gets tiresome. The same people posting the same stuff again and again, as if repetition gave more weight to their demands. Unfortunately, I and others who aren't as obsessive don't have the time or the inclination to spend all day refuting all that, and so these people get a presence here on the forum all out of proportion to their numbers.

There have been interesting debates, that's for sure. Some of them made interesting points I could agree with, were they not packaged in views I find disagreeable. But even those get tiresome. If someone spends all day posting walls of text of the same stuff, again and again....and again, there comes a point where I yield to the volume, if not to the logic, and just leave. 

Do you think its a sign that Bioware may be better off giving us a more tradational Hero's Journey, or should the rest of us (Clearly the minortiy on these forums atleast) Be more vocal or supportive of Bioware  in the face of all this negativity.

There are enough "traditional Hero's Journeys" to wrap the Earth in the paper they're written on, and I don't think the anti-enders are opposed to the idea of a less traditional narrative as a rule. ME's problem is that it deceived the players into believing it is such a traditional story, until the ending revealed that it's not. At any time within all the games, you could be reasonably sure that there was a way to "do the right thing" and come out of top, with any costs cosmetic at most in the long run.

What it takes to appreciate ME3's ending is an appreciation of moral diversity, and being able to emotionally adapt to a scenario where you're called to sacrifice your honor for the greater good. Rather obviously, this is a minority taste. Only the vehemence of the antagonism surprised me - and made me believe that this is a message that needed to be sent.

Nonetheless, to spring this on the player at the last moment was a mistake of epic proportions. I support Bioware in breaking new ground with their storytelling in video games, but they need to take the players with them, carefully and gradually. I've been known to rant about the fact that Paragons could always have their cake and eat it. A few big decisions where "doing the right thing" resulted in disaster during the trilogy would have done a lot to prepare for an ending like ME3's. It may also have scared away some players, though.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 septembre 2012 - 10:56 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

It's getting stale.

FFS, the endings are not going to change. Why waste your time begging fot more ending DLC on here, EVERY SINGLE DAY?

Also, every single thread on here turns into and ending bashfest.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

The constant "art" and "videogame-y" memes are also extremelt lame. It's taking childishness to a whole new level.

[hostaman]

Gogzilla I feel your pain and agree with you completely, however in your desire to discuss this genuine issue you've just created yet another thread that's been hijacked by the haters.

The only thing to do is stay away from the main forums.  If you're into MP, which I am, I can recommend the MP forum as having much less negativity and far more genuine players actually discussing the game and game play.

[Ieldra]

hostaman wrote...
Gogzilla I feel your pain and agree with you completely, however in your desire to discuss this genuine issue you've just created yet another thread that's been hijacked by the haters.

The only thing to do is stay away from the main forums.  If you're into MP, which I am, I can recommend the MP forum as having much less negativity and far more genuine players actually discussing the game and game play.

Which means you're stumped if you want to prefer to discuss the story, including the ending, in a reasonable way. Which is why the rest of us are here.

[Nevara]

I still don't like the endings. I spoke my peace, moved to different things and came back as necessary. And yet I grow tired of all the broken records I see when I come to chat with people.

On the up side, it gave me an idea for a novel and I'm heavily working on that.

[Gogzilla]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Do you think its a sign that Bioware may be better off giving us a more tradational Hero's Journey, or should the rest of us (Clearly the minortiy on these forums atleast) Be more vocal or supportive of Bioware  in the face of all this negativity.

There are enough "traditional Hero's Journeys" to wrap the Earth in the paper they're written on, and I don't think the anti-enders are opposed to the idea of a less traditional narrative as a rule. ME's problem is that it deceived the players into believing it is such a traditional story, until the ending revealed that it's not. At any time within all the games, you could be reasonably sure that there was a way to "do the right thing" and come out of top, with any costs cosmetic at most in the long run.

What it takes to appreciate ME3's ending is an appreciation of moral diversity, and being able to emotionally adapt to a scenario where you're called to sacrifice your honor for the greater good. Rather obviously, this is a minority taste. Only the vehemence of the antagonism surprised me - and made me believe that this is a message that needed to be sent.

Nonetheless, to spring this on the player at the last moment was a mistake of epic proportions. I support Bioware in breaking new ground with their storytelling in video games, but they need to take the players with them, carefully and gradually. I've been known to rant about the fact that Paragons could always have their cake and eat it. A few big decisions where "doing the right thing" resulted in disaster during the trilogy would have done a lot to prepare for an ending like ME3's. It may also have scared away some players, though.

When playing the game through the second time,

I found that the ending does not stand as far apart from the rest of the game as has been perpetuated

Both Tuchanka and Ranoch present similar moral dilemas to the player but the sacrifices are that of other charecters and not the player. The ending asks the player to make the same choices they already made, but in different context and where the sacrifice would be ultimately theirs.

On another note, a lot of the bleanknes about the war is dismissed as emotional fluff.  
As in video games the odds are always overcome.
On my second playthrough i noticed how all of that kinda leads up to Shepard and Anderson on the Citadel if you took it all seriously.

Half the problem is people don't take that seriously as they would in other media , because in video games you are trained to always dismiss anything other than the best case scenerio.

[loungeshep]

Don't really care, if people here wanna be that cynical and negative, fine.

It's the drama revolving it though that gets concerning.

[DecCylonus]

Nightwriter wrote...
My complaint is that if they wanted to tell a "different story" then they needed to start with a new IP or a new protagonist, because for the past 2.9 games of the ME trilogy, you played a standard "ultimate" action hero who often saves everyone.

People do nothing but praise you for what a great action hero you are, actually. You run around sleeping with sexy people, collecting fame and adulation, cheating death, solving conflicts no one else can, and somehow winning fights against hundreds of enemies per wave.

And now, in literally like the last ten minutes of the entire series, people are acting as though BioWare broke new ground.

Yes, yes, let's applaud them for taking that last ten minutes in a completely different direction.

I disagree.

1) ME was designed to be a trilogy from the beginning. Shepard had to succeed in the first two games, by definition. The outcome of the first two games was not a gaurantee of success in the third.

2) In spite of my first point, you actually could fail in ME2. If you did things wrong Shepard died, or at least got a lot of the squad killed. Even if you did things right, you didn't always have enough Paragon / Renegade points to retain everyone's loyalty on the higher difficulties.

3) All the way back in ME1 you couldn't save everyone. On Virmire and on the Citadel final battle, Shepard gave orders that got people killed, and knew they would be when he/she gave them.

IMO, the foreshadowing was there throughout the series. Not for the Crucible or the Catalyst, but definitely for a less-than-happy ending.

[Jadebaby]

Gogzilla wrote...

 Whenever i get bored enough to come back to these forums,
I can only roll my eyes as i read one forum thread after the other.

Most of the threads barely consider any perspective other then their own, and as a result there is this illusionary consensus that certain opinnions are facts. Particularly the one regarding the Catalyst logic not making any sence.

I have long ago stopped arguing about the endings in such threads, but most places of ME discourse are filled with dicussions about the topic at hand.

Personally part of me is afraid Bioware may actually listen to this mob and take steps backwards, in the kind of games they deliver. 
 I would be lying if i said i was never dissapointed with Bioware's games. But despite certain failures in execution and 
rather than delivering yet another Lord of the rings or Star wars esqe story, they are choosing to tell a differnt kind of story in their games and i can appriciate that.

So what do the rest of you feel about the continuing negativity ?

Do you think its a sign that Bioware may be better off giving us a more tradational Hero's Journey, or should the rest of us (Clearly the minortiy on these forums atleast) Be more vocal or supportive of Bioware  in the face of all this negativity.

I'd just like to point out that you, too, show signs off being discontent with the game by having a "revamp priority Earth" banner.

And you too, are also claiming opinion as fact in your control banner which heralds the paragon symbol.

Where did all the win go on BSN...

Master Che wrote...

It's bashing for bashings sake. At this point, unless its new to you, I think you're better off cutting ur loses and finding something positive to obsess over.

Oh, there it is.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:26 .

[Jadebaby]

DecCylonus wrote...

I disagree.

1) ME was designed to be a trilogy from the beginning. Shepard had to succeed in the first two games, by definition. The outcome of the first two games was not a gaurantee of success in the third.

2) In spite of my first point, you actually could fail in ME2. If you did things wrong Shepard died, or at least got a lot of the squad killed. Even if you did things right, you didn't always have enough Paragon / Renegade points to retain everyone's loyalty on the higher difficulties.

3) All the way back in ME1 you couldn't save everyone. On Virmire and on the Citadel final battle, Shepard gave orders that got people killed, and knew they would be when he/she gave them.

IMO, the foreshadowing was there throughout the series. Not for the Crucible or the Catalyst, but definitely for a less-than-happy ending.

I'd like to point out that all the deaths you witnessed along the way, were, just that. Witnessed along the way. Not thrust upon you in the final minutes to say "lolz, you thought you could succeed."

That's the issue also, it's not just that you can't save everybody, it's that you have to compromise, with a Reaper. That's not a direction we've ever been taken in Mass Effect before, in fact, it's the complete OPPOSITE direction to where we were taken. And no matter whether you played paragon or renegade. This fact never changed!

Tazzmission wrote...

i loved the dinosaur dlc now as far as everyone else go's everyone has a pro wrestler about it

I agree.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:33 .

[Jadebaby]

double post.

edit: I'm going to make something (semi) constructive out of this double-post.

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

It's getting stale.

FFS, the endings are not going to change. Why waste your time begging fot more ending DLC on here, EVERY SINGLE DAY?

Also, every single thread on here turns into and ending bashfest.

This post and this whole thread (as a wise, knowledgable moderator would say) "complaining about complaining is counter-productive, end of line."

Furthermore, a lot of people are begging. But I'm not, I believe BioWare planned to do this so I'm just speculating as to *why?* You know, just like they wanted us to do... All I'm saying is don't confuse begging for a new ending with pointing out the flaws that the endings carry or the distaste people feel for them generally, because believe it or not. Some people are still finishing the game.

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

The constant "art" and "videogame-y" memes are also extremelt lame. It's taking childishness to a whole new level.

I do agree with this, to an extent. But you don't have a sense of humour anyway so...

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:39 .

[JimJamBimBam]

Meh. I personally love the game, but I have absolutely no problem with most people who dislike it or just the endings, since most people are generally civil and acceptave enough to both explain themselves and have discussions with.

However, the people that only ever comment 'art' or 'video-gamey', or are extremely aggressive to people who do like the game/endings (or even anyone on particular), definitley get on my nerves.