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[The Night Haunter]

I was rereading Stolen Throne earlier, specifically the part about Loghain convincing/manipulating Maric into

SPOILER from the Stolen Throne
Killing Katerina
END SPOILER

basically 'hardening' him so he is a suitable King. This reminded me of the opportunity the Warden had to 'Harden' Alistair and/or Leliana during their companion quests.
This was a very cool feature, especially for Alistair since it prepares him to be a King. But even for Leliana this was awesome because it changed her attitude. This system allowed you to influence the character development of some of your companions (not all, which is good since not everyone should be influencable like that) and made them YOUR version of the character.

Sadly in DA2 this was lacking. Sure you could be a douche to Merril for the entire game and convince her to destroy her mirror, but that had no effect whatsoever on the game as she is still a blood mage after that and it changes no other conversations. This made me sad

So I really hope this kind of character building occurs in DA3 for your companions. Who else thinks so, and who disagrees?

[formaristarry]

I think the rivalry path counts as hardening, it is basically the same idea of challenging the companion's perspectives in dao. As you said, I would also like for whichever path to have more influence on their attitude or more of an impact on their decisions/convos than what we got in da2.

[Nerdage]

randomlycosmic wrote...

I think the rivalry path counts as hardening, it is basically the same idea of challenging the companion's perspectives in dao. As you said, I would also like for whichever path to have more influence on their attitude or more of an impact on their decisions/convos than what we got in da2.

Except, in DAO, they had to like you before you could influence them. It gives for a very different dynamic I think, one that came more naturally than rivalry, although that may be down to implementation with friendship/rivalry.

[Plaintiff]

I really didn't notice any difference at all between 'hardened' and 'non-hardened' characters in Origins. They pay token lipservice to the lesson they've learned and then go right back to being themselves again. The lack of change was especially obvious because it only affected two characters.

Alistair: "I'm going to be more assertive!" *continues to be a puppy*

Leliana: "You're right! Killing is awesome!" *continues to be pious and preachy*

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 septembre 2012 - 02:54 .

[formaristarry]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

nerdage wrote...

randomlycosmic wrote...

I think the rivalry path counts as hardening, it is basically the same idea of challenging the companion's perspectives in dao. As you said, I would also like for whichever path to have more influence on their attitude or more of an impact on their decisions/convos than what we got in da2.

Except, in DAO, they had to like you before you could influence them. It gives for a very different dynamic I think, one that came more naturally than rivalry, although that may be down to implementation with friendship/rivalry.

Yep, rivalry counts as hardening. The way it was done in DAO however fellt more natural because you can disagree on some points but still can feel very affectioned towards a person.

In DA2 if you chose to go down the rivalry path the interaction with that character was 'hard' in all accounts. There was no differentiation in the interaction. But the same thing goes for going down the friendship path.

Also having it at 100% did not change a thing. If you had it early on in the game think some events did not play out correctly because it was fixed.

Oh, yes, I was just stating that in da2 rivalry substituted for hardening. I agree it should be tweaked and would like to see both dynamics, hardening as a rival and hardening as a friend. It would be interesting to see their attitude about a decision or toward the pc depending on if you influenced them as a friend or as a rival.

[formaristarry]

Plaintiff wrote...

I really didn't notice any difference at all between 'hardened' and 'non-hardened' characters in Origins. They pay token lipservice to the lesson they've learned and then go right back to being themselves again. The lack of change was especially obvious because it only affected two characters.

Alistair: "I'm going to be more assertive!" *continues to be a puppy*

Leliana: "You're right! Killing is awesome!" *continues to be pious and preachy*

True. My memory may be fuzzy, but I think Alistair is the only one that we got a chance to see a difference depending on him being hardened/unhardened, and that was when you made the decision to make him king or not. Unhardened Alistair reacts poorly to being made king and hardened Alistair gets mad if you choose not to make him king.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Well... let's not forget the orgy possibilities that open up at The Pearl if you hardened your companions.

You'd think I was making a sexual innuendo there, but that it is a legitimate consequence. Granted, totallay unnecessary and more than a little gratuitious, but it is a consequence.

I, like many players, initially viewed the Rivalry Path as losing, more or less. Insulting and demening your companions shouldn't result in them liking you. I realize, of course, that many (if not the majority) of Rivalry points come as ancillary to choices you make (help mages/help Templars), but still - if the Rivalry path is associated with being a ****** to people and is displayed in RED letters/numbers, people are going to associate it with bad. Even if it leads to some cool, unique dialogue.

More often than not, it will lead to players meta-gaming who they bring on certain missions and only picking nice options in conversation, since even politely disagreeing (as I would imagine a real Rivalry path going) leads more towards the results of Friendship.

For instance, if Rivalry/Friendship was in DA:O; how would telling Allistair to stand up for himself be seen as Rivalry? That doesn't really make sense - he has a choice of being a nice guy or being more self-assertive. Neither conflicts with his ideallogues or preferred faction.

A Rivalry path with Allistair would go like this: agree with everything Morrigan (someone he despises) says, make fun of him for being a virgin, kill his foster father's wife and son, insult the memory of his now-dead mentor and making fun of him for trying to find his long-lost sister. And then, of yeah, listen to my advice about changing your world view. WTF?

[Fast Jimmy]

Drat. The Dreaded Double Post. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[Masha Potato]

Actually Loghain failed. Just look at what a spoiled douchesnoozle Maric is in Teh Calling

[mesmerizedish]

You're suggesting a friendship/rivalry system, ignoring the fact that it already exists?

Are you enzamination in disguise.

[sylvanaerie]

Plaintiff wrote...

I really didn't notice any difference at all between 'hardened' and 'non-hardened' characters in Origins. They pay token lipservice to the lesson they've learned and then go right back to being themselves again. The lack of change was especially obvious because it only affected two characters.

Alistair: "I'm going to be more assertive!" *continues to be a puppy*

Leliana: "You're right! Killing is awesome!" *continues to be pious and preachy*

It mostly shows (on Alistair) in regards to the Landsmeet.  I used to wonder why people said he made a sh*t king if unhardened (kind of like Cailan, always running off leaving the day to day ruling to someone else).  I had always hardened him prior to the Landsmeet, until once I wanted to see what the difference was and wanted to strangle unhardened Alistair.  Leliana's is more subtle, but she experiences different fates, it just becomes apparent only at the end, and during the "you're going to marry Anora" in that hardened she remains a mistress (or was supposed to, that was bugged) unhardened she breaks up with a romanced Warden.  Alistair does the same.

There are differences between the two, but mostly at those points, and in the ending slides (if those are to be believed).  It's not like the companions are given a complete personality transplant.  You didn't remove their brains and turn them into someone else.

And your characterizations of them are overly-simplistic.  

[Zack_Nero]

Well, in DA:O you don't really see a differences between Alistair and Leliana til the very end. The Landsmeet for Alistair. Everyone else ending and epilogue, nothing else. In DA2 the friendship and rivalry you see more of a difference, but only when you talk to the companions themselves not in the another quest. If BioWare is doing this again, which they probably are, just to a more deeper level.

[mousestalker]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

You're suggesting a friendship/rivalry system, ignoring the fact that it already exists?

Are you enzamination in disguise.

I'd disguise your enzamination...

[formaristarry]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

For instance, if Rivalry/Friendship was in DA:O; how would telling Allistair to stand up for himself be seen as Rivalry? That doesn't really make sense - he has a choice of being a nice guy or being more self-assertive. Neither conflicts with his ideallogues or preferred faction.

You're right, it wouldn't be seen as rivalry. But you could still harden him if he hated you. I'm saying I would like to see this expanded upon, as in, if you harden him as a rival then maybe he becomes aggressively self assertive and if you unharden him as a rival, he is more of a pushover.

If you harden him as a friend, then he thanks you for the support or opening up his eyes, and unhardening as a friend would mean support in a different way, instead of challenging, you are accepting.

As with Merrill, if you could harden her, then you would have to agree with her about fixing the mirror, unhardened, you would be able to convince her to destroy it as a friend.  And if you hardened her as a rival, then she would stand up to you and not destroy the mirror if you told her to, and if left unhardened as a rival she would destroy it because she is more of a pushover. 

If at some point you come across a dialogue choice to harden or unharden then it wouldn't necessarily have to give a point toward rivalry or friendship but the result of choosing to harden or not would add more dynamics to the friendship/rivalry system.

And then, of yeah, listen to my advice about changing your world view. WTF?

That would come down to how the initial option to harden/unharden was implemented. You could still make a good point to a companion (or harden) and have them take it to heart whether you are a friend or a rival, it would just mean that as a friend they would be more receptive to what you have to say when you harden them, and as a rival, it would be like giving them food for thought. Then how they agree/disagree with you later on depends on the combination of harden/unharden friendship/rivalry.

[formaristarry]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

You're suggesting a friendship/rivalry system, ignoring the fact that it already exists?

Are you enzamination in disguise.

Who? Me? Or OP? I certainly acknowledged both systems and am just trying to think of ways to meld them to give more range to the relationships.

[formaristarry]

IIDovahChiiefII wrote...

Tis was cool, but i would like a much richer system if this was to be reimplemented in the way you desire

Me too. My crappy suggestions don't need to be the be all end all.

[silentassassin264]

Plaintiff wrote...

I really didn't notice any difference at all between 'hardened' and 'non-hardened' characters in Origins. They pay token lipservice to the lesson they've learned and then go right back to being themselves again. The lack of change was especially obvious because it only affected two characters.

Alistair: "I'm going to be more assertive!" *continues to be a puppy*

Leliana: "You're right! Killing is awesome!" *continues to be pious and preachy*

Yeah this was pretty much more impression of how it was done in DA:O.  Hardening only mattered for a few certain scenes.  Threesomes (and foursomes) with Isabela for both, standing down at the sacred ashes for Leliana, and becoming king at the Landsmeet for Alistair.  Other than that, they stayed the exact same character.  DA2's rivalry was much better done.