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IF Cullen is a companion, is there a way to NOT have him?


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#126
LobselVith8

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GodWood wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden can even express it's a "prison" and an "oppressive place."


You keep using this example as if it has any weight. All that shows is the Warden can have this as an opinion. (S)he can also have no issue with it.


In other words, the game invites us to shape our view on the Chantry, the templars, and the Circles. It allows us to decide if we should be pro-templar or pro-mage. If our mage should have Libertarian views or Loyalist views. If we view templars as the solution, or part of the problem.

#127
brushyourteeth

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LobselVith8 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden can even express it's a "prison" and an "oppressive place."


You keep using this example as if it has any weight. All that shows is the Warden can have this as an opinion. (S)he can also have no issue with it.


In other words, the game invites us to shape our view on the Chantry, the templars, and the Circles. It allows us to decide if we should be pro-templar or pro-mage. If our mage should have Libertarian views or Loyalist views. If we view templars as the solution, or part of the problem.


The Warden can also express that blood magic is detestably evil, but that doesn't prove that it's so either.

Just playing devil's advocate. We all know that the Circle IS a prison and definitely CAN be an oppressive place.  Posted Image

#128
LobselVith8

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh man...templar supporters had to suffer having several mages rammed down their throat for two games.
(No, Fernis isn't a templar nad Alistair isn't really one either. And he doesn't even talk much about that)

But now, when mage supporters are faced with the propbabiltiy of htere being ONEtemplar in the group, they go all Ander-like and turn into whiny abominations....


There's also Cassandra. =P Seriously, though, it's more about having companions side with a protagonist who doesn't violate their moral code, whether that companion is a mage or a templar. At least, it is for me.

#129
Applepie_Svk

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I hope that he won´t be a companion at all, he reminds me all those great characters which I had almost never used in game as Aveline or Jacob and even lol _ Alistar.

For some reason most of the templars in the DA are kind of either zealots or dumb guys in words of meaning like warrior of faith or light or whatever... from the other side I found kind of attractive character Ser Otto from DA:O which despite that he was blind, wants to do good things - to bring a light where was none. which lot of his brothers simply ingoring at all...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 26 septembre 2012 - 02:51 .


#130
Barquiel

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I hate him in DA:O and DA2...but if he really wants to help my pro-mage protagonist to kill every templar on sight and topple the institutions that he served, I won't stop him.

Modifié par Barquiel, 26 septembre 2012 - 02:54 .


#131
R2s Muse

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RazorrX wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
Curious. I would argue that this is also what Cullen does in Act 3. He explicitly stands up to Meredith because she's not following what the Order is supposed to be, both with the surrendering mages and when he tries to relieve her of her command. I actually see he and Evangeline being rather similar.


Evangeline was a good templar from the beginning.  She felt that mages were people, and that the Templars had a duty to them as well as to the world.  The core believe was that Tempars existed to protect mages from themselves as well as to protect Thedas from the danger a mage *COULD* become.  But core to this belief was that mages were still basically people first, mages second.  This is also mirrored by the Divine btw.  This belief is what compells her to do what she does thorought the story.

Cullen views mages as all being a nuclear bomb waiting to go off.  Not people anymore, just a dangerous thing (Sarebas) that must be kept locked up at all costs.  He viewed the templars as jailers more than anything else and even argued that the hero of ferelden annul the circle entirely.  When the Knight Commander of Ferelden ruled that the circle was safe, he protested that you could not trust them, etc.  Even in DA2 he voices this over and over.  He does not step in and stop the evil acts going on in the Circle in Kirkwall.  He does not change his opinion until AFTER Merideth has gone off the deep end and starts killing every mage she sees.  He sees mages try to surrender and be cut down, etc.  It is only then that he steps up and says "This is wrong." 

So no, he is not really the same as Evangeline.

Now maybe they will make him SO different from the previous Cullen that I like him, but as it stands now, I really do not care for him at all.

I certainly don't expect to convince you to care for him, since there are just folks we don't like, and that's cool. But I do take issue with this interpretation of Cullen, as you're convolving his actions at a point where he's traumatized and tortured (i.e. during Broken Circle) with someone who has evolved significantly over the course of two games and arguably ends DA2 as someone who also feels that mages should be protected.

In Act 1, keep in mind, he is still suffering from PTSD (and from those more familiar than I, I am told his case is rather textbook) and this is when he talks about mages being dangerous. He doesn't say they aren't people, but that they can't treated like "you and me." No, he doesn't believe they should be allowed freedom. He thinks they should be kept in the Circle where they can be watched.

By the end of DA2, however, he is the one who says that the Kirkwall Circle isn't beyond redemption. He urges Meredith, when the three mages surrender, to allow them to surrender and that being a templar means it is his duty to watch over them, not kill them out of hand. When he finally stands against Meredith, it is because "this is not what the Order stands for."

Granted it took him until the end to finally think for himself and stand up... I see it as the straw that broke the camel's back, but he does do it. Arguably, it took the same for Evangeline, who had no problem throwing mages into those ratty freaky dungeons under the White Spire until she came around at the end.

So... sounds pretty similar to your defense of Evangeline to me.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:08 .


#132
Squeeze the Fish

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I didn't realize we knew that much about Cullen to hate or love him so much. It seems like he had some pretty minor parts in both DAO and DAII and besides knowing a few things that happened to him, we don't really know who he is or what he stands for. At least, that's my recollection.

And as far as OP goes, I really didn't care for Isabela at all, so I didn't take her anywhere and she left on her own, think I only had to deal with her a handful of times before that. *Shrugs* You could probably do the same thing to Cullen (if he's even a companion) couldn't you? Or is it that you don't like the idea of him being tied to the story in an important way, in which case I would point you to my first paragraph.

Not trying to argue with your opinion, I just feel like he's such an unknown that it seems premature to love/hate him already.

#133
Beerfish

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The great difficulty with characters from previous games or previous books is it is tough for the player to put aside biases they develop. In reality a new player character should be starting from ground zero with these characters and assess them as they go on. However that is very tough to do if you were very positive or very negative towards a character in a previous game or book.

This is why I'd like all new companions, ones that were not in the last game or book at all. sure good cameos for other characters but not a as perma companions.

#134
R2s Muse

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Beerfish wrote...

The great difficulty with characters from previous games or previous books is it is tough for the player to put aside biases they develop. In reality a new player character should be starting from ground zero with these characters and assess them as they go on. However that is very tough to do if you were very positive or very negative towards a character in a previous game or book.

This is why I'd like all new companions, ones that were not in the last game or book at all. sure good cameos for other characters but not a as perma companions.


This is a good point. Also, because a minor character may now have a personality or characterization that wasn't explored previously by the writers, and therefore may not jibe with what the player expects for that character.  For all we know, if Cullen were to be included in the next game, he may be nothing like what we expect. Also, who knows what has happened to him in the intervening years since Act 3,  he may have evolved even further.

This is part of what I'm personally excited to see!

#135
The Elder King

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I don't see the problems of having a good part of our companions optional. I'm going to recruit Cullen anyway, it it's optional. I generally recruit every companions I can. After the recruitmen I might send them away or kill them if there's the option, but I want to make them confront my PC on their views and opinions.

Modifié par hhh89, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:39 .


#136
snackrat

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I tolerated him in Origins until he went crazy and disliked him.
I tolerated him, and in a degree admired and was amused by him, in DAII.

Even though I'm not particularly strong-minded about whether he comes or goes, if he ended up a viable option I'd recruit him anyway. I always recruit everyone...

...with one exception: in a few playthroughs I didn't recruit Sebastian. For me personally, I found him boring, his voice dull, his morality restrictive and yet strangely... off, and his face eerily boyish... but mostly I just hated that he flipped out at the end and forced an(other!) Ultimatum. DUDE, ANDERS JUST DID THAT, AND IT ISN'T TURNING OUT TO WELL FOR HIM IS IT

#137
Masha Potato

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filetemo wrote...

I demand every conversation on the dialogue wheel to have the option "kill everybody in sight"



#138
LobselVith8

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brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, the game invites us to shape our view on the Chantry, the templars, and the Circles. It allows us to decide if we should be pro-templar or pro-mage. If our mage should have Libertarian views or Loyalist views. If we view templars as the solution, or part of the problem.


The Warden can also express that blood magic is detestably evil, but that doesn't prove that it's so either.

Just playing devil's advocate. We all know that the Circle IS a prison and definitely CAN be an oppressive place.  Posted Image


I tend to bring up that line to show that the Circle of Ferelden isn't necessarily the idyllic paradise that some think it is (especially when Wynne argues that the protagonist can change that it's an oppressive place if he returns to the Circle as a leader), but in this case it was to show that the Dragon Age games basically invite us to have an opinion on mages and templars. Like you pointed out, the player can form an opinion on a myriad of issues because Dragon Age invites us to do so.

#139
Dave of Canada

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brushyourteeth wrote...

We all know that the Circle IS a prison


It's a boarding school for dangerous and irresponsible super humans.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 26 septembre 2012 - 06:53 .


#140
Rpgfantasyplayer

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If it is someone I don't like, I enjoy that moment where I can just off them. Especially with Anders in DA2. I liked him in Awakenings and then he just go to melodramatic for my tastes so when I got to off him in the end it was really a special moment. I have to have them in my party for a while though to see if I don't really like them or if they change and I like them more.

#141
Lotion Soronarr

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh man...templar supporters had to suffer having several mages rammed down their throat for two games.
(No, Fernis isn't a templar nad Alistair isn't really one either. And he doesn't even talk much about that)

But now, when mage supporters are faced with the probabiltiy of there being ONE templar in the group, they go all Ander-like and turn into whiny abominations....


There's also Cassandra. =P Seriously, though, it's more about having companions side with a protagonist who doesn't violate their moral code, whether that companion is a mage or a templar. At least, it is for me.


And Cassandra? She ain't a party member.
I don't recall you protesting for all the mages a pro-templar player had to endure in his party.

#142
Tootles FTW

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I like Cullen. However, if the writers find that he is skippable as far as the main plot is concerned I don't see why this can't be an option for DA3. Isabela was skippable, and I think her role was actually pretty significant (Qunari, and whatnot).

I hope you have options, even if they're ones I won't choose.

#143
Arokel

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Well there is always the Murder Knife...

#144
Todd23

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filetemo wrote...

I demand every conversation on the dialogue wheel to have the option "kill everybody in sight"

Seconded!  But if Bioware refuses, at least do that with Cullen.  I must kill him!  Posted Image

#145
LobselVith8

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's also Cassandra. =P Seriously, though, it's more about having companions side with a protagonist who doesn't violate their moral code, whether that companion is a mage or a templar. At least, it is for me.


And Cassandra? She ain't a party member.


Was that confirmed? It seems like party members are merely speculation at the moment.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I don't recall you protesting for all the mages a pro-templar player had to endure in his party.


I didn't think it made sense for pro-templar Hawke to be forced to have apostates as companions I didn't see why Anders and Merrill helped pro-templar Hawke aid the templars in capturing mages any more than why Fenris would help pro-mage Hawke protect mages from the templars. I also disagreed with Fenris fighting alongside pro-slavery Hawke as well.

All I'm saying is that I think it makes more sense for companions with conflicting values not to simply ignore that the protagonist is doing things that violate their ethics and morals. I don't see a Seeker or a templar helping the protagonist if he's fighting for mage autonomy any more than I see a rebel mage helping the protagonist who believes in and fights for the templars.

#146
Fiacre

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LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't think it made sense for pro-templar Hawke to be forced to have apostates as companions I didn't see why Anders and Merrill helped pro-templar Hawke aid the templars in capturing mages any more than why Fenris would help pro-mage Hawke protect mages from the templars. I also disagreed with Fenris fighting alongside pro-slavery Hawke as well.


I think that depends on the relationship with Hawke. It never seemed as odd as Anders or Merrill helping a pro-Templar Hawke, even when I rivalmanced him (especially since the rivalry mostly came from disagreeing over that exact thing.)

I even managed to play a pro-mage Hawke that took Fenris with him nearly everywhere and still maxed out friendship with him. I see Fenris' equivalent to Anders' plight of the mages ideologically in his hatred for slavery moreso than his hatred for mages, which is why I do agree that pro slavery Hawke getting along with Fenris is indeed rather silly.

#147
terdferguson123

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PinkDiamondstl wrote...

How can anyone dislike Cullen so much?:pinched:


Well, he did want to kill every mage in the circle tower in Ferelden just because he thought they MIGHT be abominations. Seems like a knee jerk reaction to the situation and we don't really need that in our group.

#148
CrazyRah

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filetemo wrote...

I demand every conversation on the dialogue wheel to have the option "kill everybody in sight"



#149
DarkKnightHolmes

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Kill all templars on sight!

#150
brushyourteeth

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terdferguson123 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

How can anyone dislike Cullen so much?:pinched:


Well, he did want to kill every mage in the circle tower in Ferelden just because he thought they MIGHT be abominations. Seems like a knee jerk reaction to the situation and we don't really need that in our group.

Considering a single abomination can kill dozens to hundreds of people with no trouble at all, that seemed kind of a fair plan to me.

Granted, I like keeping innocents alive as much as the next girl. But out of the hundreds of mages at Kinloch Hold, there were about a dozen adults and two children still un-abominated, and about a quarter of those adults were blood mages who helped make it happen. The rest were already running around all gooey and evil, ready to kill or enslave everything that moved.

So yes, considering the Templars didn't have any reason to hope that anyone survived that, and that they wouldn't have been powerful enough to save them even if there were, I'd say Greagoir was right to lock them all in together until reinforcements showed up.

Meanwhile, Cullen's next door to the chamber where Uldred is actively trying to force demons into every mage in the room. So yeah, it's wasn't too unreasonable for him to advise that you kill first and ask questions later.

Thankfully, the Warden was strong enough to handle the situation. If he/she chose to. But that doesn't mean that Cullen gave you radically bad advice.