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IF Cullen is a companion, is there a way to NOT have him?


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#151
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terdferguson123 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

How can anyone dislike Cullen so much?:pinched:


Well, he did want to kill every mage in the circle tower in Ferelden just because he thought they MIGHT be abominations. Seems like a knee jerk reaction to the situation and we don't really need that in our group.



Disliking him for that is absurd, in my opinion. He was tortured for days, and he saws both mages and templars been killed or transformed in abomination by Uldred. He was close to madness at that point. I doubt that anyone (even more moderate templars like Ser Otto or Set Thask) would've said something different in Cullen's situation.

#152
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DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Kill all templars on sight!


I though that in DA2. Though I thought the same about mages too.

#153
LolaLei

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hhh89 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

How can anyone dislike Cullen so much?:pinched:


Well, he did want to kill every mage in the circle tower in Ferelden just because he thought they MIGHT be abominations. Seems like a knee jerk reaction to the situation and we don't really need that in our group.



Disliking him for that is absurd, in my opinion. He was tortured for days, and he saws both mages and templars been killed or transformed in abomination by Uldred. He was close to madness at that point. I doubt that anyone (even more moderate templars like Ser Otto or Set Thask) would've said something different in Cullen's situation.


Agreed. From what he says whilst caged in Kinloch Hold, he was stuck in there for weeks maybe even months, starved of food, water, sleep and lyrium. Anyone would react the same way after being tortured for a prolonged period of time and forced to watch their friends die in combat or twist and warp into fleshy abominations. His reaction was more than justifiable.

#154
Sylvanpyxie

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He was tortured for days

The biggest thing people also forget is Cullen was relatively inexperienced as a Templar during the Circle of Magi quests in Origins. He'd barely begun his life as a Templar and suddenly the brown stuff is hitting the fan and he's covered from head to toe. (He actually held up quite well, considering.)

It's a justifiable reaction. A lot of character reactions can be justified, but a lot of people won't see it the same way you do. Opinions are a pain like that.

In regards to Cullen being optional or not - I'd prefer it if all companions were optional, but that won't happen so nevermind.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 26 septembre 2012 - 11:06 .


#155
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LolaLei wrote...



Agreed. From what he says whilst caged in Kinloch Hold, he was stuck in there for weeks maybe even months, starved of food, water, sleep and lyrium. Anyone would react the same way after being tortured for a prolonged period of time and forced to watch their friends die in combat or twist and warp into fleshy abominations. His reaction was more than justifiable.


He, I could understand the hate for what he did in the epilogue if the Warden is a mage (though I think it was retconnetted), or for his views in DA2 (expecially in the first Act), but for what he said right after being tortured, both physically and mentally? It's absurd.

#156
R2s Muse

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Sylvanpyxie wrote...

He was tortured for days

The biggest thing people also forget is Cullen was relatively inexperienced as a Templar during the Circle of Magi quests in Origins. He'd barely begun his life as a Templar and sudden the brown stuff is hitting the fan and he's covered from head to toe.

It's a justifiable reaction. A lot of character reactions can be justified, but a lot of people won't see it the same way you do. Opinions are a pain like that.

In regards to Cullen being optional or not - I'd prefer it if all companions were optional, but that won't happen so nevermind.


Good point. During the male mage origin, he talks about how he's never seen an abomination and fearfully wonders how he would know if one were walking among them. Sounds pretty green  to then be subjected to such horrors. Amazing he bounced back so well.

#157
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Sylvanpyxie wrote...

He was tortured for days

The biggest thing people also forget is Cullen was relatively inexperienced as a Templar during the Circle of Magi quests in Origins. He'd barely begun his life as a Templar and suddenly the brown stuff is hitting the fan and he's covered from head to toe.

It's a justifiable reaction. A lot of character reactions can be justified, but a lot of people won't see it the same way you do. Opinions are a pain like that.

In regards to Cullen being optional or not - I'd prefer it if all companions were optional, but that won't happen so nevermind.


I doubt that any templars wouldn't have reacted in the same way that Cullen did.

#158
Eveangaline

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LolaLei wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

How can anyone dislike Cullen so much?:pinched:


Well, he did want to kill every mage in the circle tower in Ferelden just because he thought they MIGHT be abominations. Seems like a knee jerk reaction to the situation and we don't really need that in our group.



Disliking him for that is absurd, in my opinion. He was tortured for days, and he saws both mages and templars been killed or transformed in abomination by Uldred. He was close to madness at that point. I doubt that anyone (even more moderate templars like Ser Otto or Set Thask) would've said something different in Cullen's situation.


Agreed. From what he says whilst caged in Kinloch Hold, he was stuck in there for weeks maybe even months, starved of food, water, sleep and lyrium. Anyone would react the same way after being tortured for a prolonged period of time and forced to watch their friends die in combat or twist and warp into fleshy abominations. His reaction was more than justifiable.


Wouldn't he die after like at most a week without water?

#159
jackofalltrades456

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Elton John is dead wrote...

blueumi wrote...

you don't have to use anders at all in dragon age 2 also you can ask him to leave

i


Yeah in Act II near the end *after* completing his stupid companion mission.

I hope Cullen is like Alistair and Varric in that you don't even get a choice in removing him from the party (excluding Alistair's execution/exile here). I also hope that Cullen has become a very, very, very extreme religious zealot who constantly preaches about The Maker and has a new found hatred against mages and even kills several harmless mage characters during mid-conversation while you're actually talking to them and the kills are random each time.

That'll make up for us pro-templars having to put up with whiny ass Anders. Also I hope Cullen breaks into The Inquisitor's house (like Anders did to Hawke) and leaves verses of The Chant of Light and notes about his hatred for mages laying around the place. If the party camp is back then I hope The Inquisitor's tent is filled with verses from the Chant of Light and notes about Cullen's hatred for mages and there's *nothing* you can do to remove them.

Hell, I hope Bioware makes these notes the first thing you see when you start DA3 up (they're the theme in the start-menu).


This.

#160
Sylvanpyxie

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I doubt that any templars wouldn't have reacted in the same way that Cullen did.

You're welcome to your doubt, but the fact is we don't know how a more experienced Templar would've reacted.

Cullen had no idea of the abominations he would be facing so soon in his career, as far as we know, his experience in the Circle of Magi at the hands of Uldred was his first encounter with them. A more experienced Templar would have faced abominations before, and as a result it's possible that they would be far less likely to suffer the same emotional scarring that Cullen did.

It's entirely speculation on both our parts - Assumptions can be made, but since it was Cullen in the cage we will simply never know.

#161
R2s Muse

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hhh89 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...



Agreed. From what he says whilst caged in Kinloch Hold, he was stuck in there for weeks maybe even months, starved of food, water, sleep and lyrium. Anyone would react the same way after being tortured for a prolonged period of time and forced to watch their friends die in combat or twist and warp into fleshy abominations. His reaction was more than justifiable.


He, I could understand the hate for what he did in the epilogue if the Warden is a mage (though I think it was retconnetted), or for his views in DA2 (expecially in the first Act), but for what he said right after being tortured, both physically and mentally? It's absurd.


Well, his epilogues must be retconned. He's certainly not serving as Knight Commander of the Fereldan Circle, esp since according to codex Greagoir assigned him to Kirkwall, nor is it very plausible that while he's running around the countryside killing people like a madman they would also send him to Kirkwall to soon become Knight Captain. In Witch Hunt, the Circle mages gossip that he's been recovering at the Chantry in Greenfell; the fact that there are other DA2 hints in the DLC  suggests that the game alrady was in production and this is more likely his "true" epilogue (as truth goes in DA...).

#162
Maclimes

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In this crazy Mage V Templar thing, I found myself hating both groups. I remember wishing I could play someone who was openly judgmental of both of them.

I reminds me of my thoughts when these same arguments go around on Star Wars forums. "Are Sith really evil?", "Jedi are the real villains", etc, etc. I just chuckle to myself, and think, "Man, I'm glad I prefer Han Solo over all those silly Jedi and Sith".

Which brings a sudden illumination: Now I know why I love Varric so much. He's basically Han Solo, in so many ways. HMMMMmmmm...

#163
Shades_Of_Pale

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Eveangaline wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
Agreed. From what he says whilst caged in Kinloch Hold, he was stuck in there for weeks maybe even months, starved of food, water, sleep and lyrium. Anyone would react the same way after being tortured for a prolonged period of time and forced to watch their friends die in combat or twist and warp into fleshy abominations. His reaction was more than justifiable.


Wouldn't he die after like at most a week without water?


Perhaps. But I am thinking the demons kept him alive for the fun or hoping that he would finally let them 'inside'.

#164
R2s Muse

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hhh89 wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

He was tortured for days

The biggest thing people also forget is Cullen was relatively inexperienced as a Templar during the Circle of Magi quests in Origins. He'd barely begun his life as a Templar and suddenly the brown stuff is hitting the fan and he's covered from head to toe.

It's a justifiable reaction. A lot of character reactions can be justified, but a lot of people won't see it the same way you do. Opinions are a pain like that.

In regards to Cullen being optional or not - I'd prefer it if all companions were optional, but that won't happen so nevermind.


I doubt that any templars wouldn't have reacted in the same way that Cullen did.

LOL too many double negatives there for me... are you suggesting that most templars would have reacted the same way? Or that Cullen's response is unique? :)

#165
LolaLei

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Eveangaline wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

How can anyone dislike Cullen so much?:pinched:


Well, he did want to kill every mage in the circle tower in Ferelden just because he thought they MIGHT be abominations. Seems like a knee jerk reaction to the situation and we don't really need that in our group.



Disliking him for that is absurd, in my opinion. He was tortured for days, and he saws both mages and templars been killed or transformed in abomination by Uldred. He was close to madness at that point. I doubt that anyone (even more moderate templars like Ser Otto or Set Thask) would've said something different in Cullen's situation.


Agreed. From what he says whilst caged in Kinloch Hold, he was stuck in there for weeks maybe even months, starved of food, water, sleep and lyrium. Anyone would react the same way after being tortured for a prolonged period of time and forced to watch their friends die in combat or twist and warp into fleshy abominations. His reaction was more than justifiable.


Wouldn't he die after like at most a week without water?


Maybe their bodies work differently in Thedas LOL! 

#166
R2s Muse

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Shades_Of_Pale wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
Agreed. From what he says whilst caged in Kinloch Hold, he was stuck in there for weeks maybe even months, starved of food, water, sleep and lyrium. Anyone would react the same way after being tortured for a prolonged period of time and forced to watch their friends die in combat or twist and warp into fleshy abominations. His reaction was more than justifiable.


Wouldn't he die after like at most a week without water?


Perhaps. But I am thinking the demons kept him alive for the fun or hoping that he would finally let them 'inside'.

Good questions. I have no idea. I guess all we have to go on is Cullen's own muddied recollection, and the fact that Leliana points out he's been starved ("I can tell" Ah, Leliana, sometimes you frighten me, dear).  I wouldn't be surprised if the demons would use their hocus  pocus to try to get what they want.

#167
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Sylvanpyxie wrote...

I doubt that any templars wouldn't have reacted in the same way that Cullen did.

You're welcome to your doubt, but the fact is we don't know how a more experienced Templar would've reacted.

Cullen had no idea of the abominations he would be facing so soon in his career, as far as we know, his experience in the Circle of Magi at the hands of Uldred was his first encounter with them. A more experienced Templar would have faced abominations before, and as a result it's possible that they would be far less likely to suffer the same emotional scarring that Cullen did.

It's entirely speculation on both our parts - Assumptions can be made, but since it was Cullen in the cage we will simply never know.


An experienced Templar might have seen what abominations are capable to do, but I don't think many templars have faced the torture that Cullen did by the hands of Uldred. Uldred kept him alive (as other templars) because he wanted to broke him. Otherwise he would've killed him.

#168
Sylvanpyxie

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I don't think many templars have faced the torture that Cullen did by the hands of Uldred.

I'm sure there are very few Templars that have lived through the same kind of imprisonment that Cullen has, but that doesn't mean there aren't Templars that have lived through demonic torment or faced their deepest desires and won out.

Templars face off against demons and abominations on a regular basis - It's in the job description. Cullen was relatively inexperienced and a more experienced Templar, that had faced off against abominations and the like before, may have endured it better.

Since our opinions are so different, and there's no way to know for sure, it might be wise if simply agree to disagree.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 26 septembre 2012 - 11:29 .


#169
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R2s Muse wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


I doubt that any templars wouldn't have reacted in the same way that Cullen did.

LOL too many double negatives there for me... are you suggesting that most templars would have reacted the same way? Or that Cullen's response is unique? :)


The former. Putting aside his inexperience with abominations (which anyway had a key role in shaping his personality after the event) the torture (both physical and mental) he suffered was enourmous. I doubt that after that experience, a templar didn't have the same opinion of Cullen about mages (although temporarily, since Cullen did not act in the same way he did in Origins, and the didn't became the most extremist templar neither).

#170
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Sylvanpyxie wrote...

I don't think many templars have faced the torture that Cullen did by the hands of Uldred.

I'm sure there are very few Templars that have lived through the same kind of imprisonment that Cullen has, but that doesn't mean there aren't Templars that have lived through demonic torment or faced their deepest desires and won out.

Templars face off against demons and abominations on a regular basis - It's in the job description. Cullen was relatively inexperienced, and a more experienced Templar, that had faced off against abominations and the like before, may have endured it better.

Since our opinions are so different, and there's no way to know for sure, it might be wise if simply agree to disagree.


But he endured the torture. He resisted his desires and won out.
And I don't think he was the only Templar being caged either, but he was the only one that survived, and he was still somehow sane.
I agree though it's impossible to know for sure, so there's no need to continue this discussion.

#171
R2s Muse

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hhh89 wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


I doubt that any templars wouldn't have reacted in the same way that Cullen did.

LOL too many double negatives there for me... are you suggesting that most templars would have reacted the same way? Or that Cullen's response is unique? :)


The former. Putting aside his inexperience with abominations (which anyway had a key role in shaping his personality after the event) the torture (both physical and mental) he suffered was enourmous. I doubt that after that experience, a templar didn't have the same opinion of Cullen about mages (although temporarily, since Cullen did not act in the same way he did in Origins, and the didn't became the most extremist templar neither).



Ah, okay, that's what I thought... guess I'm only confused over the fact that it seemed you and sylvanpixie were actually saying the same thing... ? :blink:

Indeed, I agree. I think it was a pretty horrible situation to which many would have reacted quite badly. I think it makes sense that he was in a pretty unstable state of mind after. I also imagine something like that would stay with him. I'm told that he shows some pretty classic PTSD symptoms in DA2 which is a some nice character continuity since Act 1 is only shortly after the end of the Blight. And, then, nevertheless, he comes through it and recovers without becoming a zealot like Meredith.

One thing I like about his character arc is that he's seen both extremes now of a Circle. He starts out DA:O in a Circle that could be considered to be a bit lax with the mages, and where the mages have become extreme.Then he comes to Kirkwall where the treatment of the mages is completely the opposite, and the templars have become extreme. I think that puts him in a unique position to comment on where the middle road might be.

#172
Sylvanpyxie

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seemed you and sylvanpixie were actually saying the same thing... ?

Trust me, that almost never happens.

He resisted his desires and won out.

I wasn't denying Cullen's ability to resist the torture, or endure the torment. I was simply pointing out that his inexperience may have caused him to suffer greater long term emotional trauma than a more experienced Templar might have.

As far as we know, Cullen has never encountered demons, abominations or blood magic until the events of the Broken Circle. His inexperience would likely have made the entire affair a great deal more traumatic and may have greater affected his long-term opinion of magic.

Sorry if it seemed like I was putting Cullen down for his reaction to the Circle of Magi events. I wasn't

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 27 septembre 2012 - 12:13 .


#173
VampOrchid

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Ugh, I swore I wasn't going to post in here...but look at me...sucked into to this vortex...

The point of not liking him because of him wanting to kill mages, which honestly, IMO I don't think he wanted to do...but whatever.

Lets just say that's what he wanted. To kill almost all mages. After playing DA2, even though I play a mage almost everytime...It's getting rather hard to defend them, mages, anymore. Almost every one of them are running around being all blood magicky and evil.

"I'm depressed because my wife is dead. I know, I'll cut up a bunch of women and make a new one!"

"Templars want to kill us all, I know! I'll turn into a giant monster using blood magic, that'll prove them their ideals were wrong."

"Some people in the chantry and tower treated me bad! Oooh I know, I will blow up a Chantry in a major city, even though there might be townsfolk and other innocents in there. That'll show everyone that mages are good."

"I'm an evil blood mage."

"I'm a blood mage..."

"I'm a blood mage trying to unlock the powers of an evil mirror..."

OMG the list goes on and on. So really in the end...My Hawke was all, wtf was I fighting for again?

So really, hating Cullen, because you say he wants mages dead...in the end would you blame him? LOL

Regardless, I still like him.

But I'm sure, just like in previous games there will be an option to get him to either leave the group, or just not do his quests. That's part of having choices in an RPG after all.

#174
SamaraDraven

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Sylvanpyxie wrote...

I wasn't denying Cullen's ability to resist the torture, or endure the torment. I was simply pointing out that his inexperience may have caused him to suffer greater long term emotional trauma than a more experienced Templar might have.


This is a good point. I think many who hold Cullen's comments in Act 1 against him forget that it had only been a few months prior to seeing him in DA2, that Broken Circle occurred. Also his DAO epilogue has always been just a rumor from one possible type of playthrough and has been patently denied as being canon. What was declared canon says he was elsewhere.

Back to Cullen's inexperience... that event in Kinloch Hold might have been better handled by a more experienced Templar, true. But Cullen was the sole survivor from behind the great door. That would stick with anyone but more so with someone who had no experience with such things. It's one thing to be told something but quite another to experience it.

As time goes on in Kirkwall, we get to see him handling things a bit better. If his encounter with Wilmod had happened before Broken Circle, it wouldn't have reminded him of that horrorific time. But it does. And so soon after getting to Kirkwall too! It was less than a year since he'd survived Uldred's attack on the Circle. I'm surprised it didn't drive him further into a craze about opressing mages. When Hawke tells Cullen what Tarohne was doing to the recruits, he gets a bit vicious. However, if you think about it, he's just been told that a mage was doing to other young knights what had been done to the mages in Ferelden by Uldred and like then, comrades were killed. His nightmare has just come back to haunt him. A few cruel words are the least I would have expected from him.

The fact that he takes until Act 3 to DO something was probably just written that way for dramatic effect by the writers. But since so many want to stick that against Cullen too, I offer my thoughts: He's a soldier. He was more than likely raised in part or entirely by the system he serves. His idea of what's right was formed to suit the Chantry's whims. It's like a slave who doesn't know he's a slave, has never known freedom and can't begin to fathom it.

In the beginning of his career, he thinks mages aren't so bad. Then Uldred happens and he's shoved into a dark place. He claims his fath saved him during that time he spent being tortured. He feels in his heart that if he serves as he's supposed to, he can't go wrong and real word experience has hammered this home for him. So as the events in Kirkwall unfold, he sticks to his faith because it's helped him already. He wants to avoid another Broken Circle at all costs and thinks being soft on the mages will invite just that. When it happens anyway, I would have expected him to go further into Meredith territory. But by then he'd been questioning more and more what was right. He may not believe that mages deserve their freedom (baby steps ^_^) but he doesn't believe they deserve death and worse and he's stopped accepting the lies that say it's fine.

I'm not so much concerned about what Cullen has said or supposedly done because most of that has been addressed. What I want answers to was how much he knew of the goings-on in Kirkwall's Circle. Did he have any knowledge/say over the mages who were made Tranquil for petty reasons? We don't know. It seems in DA2 that any Templar can do it, if they please, at any time so this is murky to me. Many have mentioned rapes yet I have not had any such dialogue pop up during my playthroughs. Whether I was pro-mage or pro-templar, I just never came across it. There's a Tranquil proprieter in the Gallows who asks Hawke not to steal the merchandise or she'll be beaten. What Alrik was planning to do with Ella doesn't say explicitly anything about rape but he's creepy enough that it's not a stretch. So I want this addressed in some way. What did Cullen know of it? And how does he feel about it? If these things were indeed occurring. Like I said, I never ran across it. I'd like to see him grappling with guilt and learning a new path. The possible story it brings would be fascinating to me.

#175
Shadow Fox

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GodWood wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Warden can even express it's a "prison" and an "oppressive place."

You keep using this example as if it has any weight. All that shows is the Warden can have this as an opinion. (S)he can also have no issue with it.

Or see it as a safe haven from the world but don't bother it's like talking to a brick wall when it comes to him.