32 réponses à ce sujet

[Squatting Monk]

No, I mean decrement the number of uses for the special ability that cools down. Isn't that what you did in the demo module you had?

[Aelis Eine]

That's not a fair comparison.  To use your idea, the player would pull from max range and drop 3 AoEs before the mobs get there.  And then drops one more AoE, so each mob hits once.  So you take 3 damage and take 4 attacks.

As I mentioned in a previous post, some attacks, like Flame Arrow and normal bow autoattacks go as far as the screen can clip. I definitely wouldn't give AoEs the same amount of range. Neither will I give them the same chance of proccing secondary effects.

The combat situation you outlined isn't even really an AoE situation (at least not the second one).

I suppose one of the main points is we need to figure out what AoE means.  If you mean 2-3 targets max, then 70% or so would be needed, yes.  But if we're talking 5-6+ mobs in AoE (which to me is what AoE really means), then 40% is far more reasonable.  That means you're dealing double the total damage with 5 or more targets.  And it becomes a total damage increase at 3 or more targets.

Probably 3-5, with the 5s having uneven HPs so that some of them will drop faster than others. Some AoE skills might even cap at precisely that amount, either as a hard cap (max 5 arrows fired, max 3 targets chained) or an effective one, like really small melee range AoE that typically hits 3 targets at best.

"Mess up a lot" is awfully vague.  The thing I also don't understand is theoretically a player should *already* be playing defensively like that before they take damage.  Or will be, if the content is hard.

I think the question to ask is whether you care about how many total times the person messes up or solely how many times they mess up within a small window of time.

I'll probably go by a per-encounter basis, in keeping with an ARPG-style design. It seems anti-climatic for a player to die because they ran out of "ammo", so to speak.

That said, I also don't plan to have encounter difficulty as a straight line. I think having spikes and valleys keeps things interesting - adding random situations that can make people panic, like random ambushes, traps triggering hidden doors that open up a flanking attack etc. When there's a valley in difficulty I wouldn't expect players to need to use any defensive skills or heals at all, and when there's a spike they might have to pop everything.

As for messing up a lot within a small window, suppose there's a caster mob with a big debuff, a CC and stacking DoTs, and a melee mob with sneak attacks, both relatively squishy. Trouble is, the caster mob is relatively far away compared to the sneak attacker, but there's a conveniently placed pillar or corner in the room.

The "model answer" would be to use the pillar to block the caster's line of sight, take down the sneak attacker, then ambush the caster as it turns the corner without taking a single point of damage.

The slightly less ideal solution would be to go straight for the caster, eat the debuff and maybe a few sneak attacks but CC and take down the caster, pop a defensive skill to cover the heal, then kill the sneak attacker.

The worst solution would be to go for the sneak attacker because it's the closet target. The player eats the debuff, maybe gets a few attacks, including a knockdown skill evaded by the sneak attacker due to the combined debuff and the sneak attacker AC, gets CCed, eats sneak attacks, pops the defensive skill and heals, then finally kills off the sneak attacker but takes a few non-sneak attack hits and eat a couple DoTs while that happens. The player then runs up to the caster with a bunch of DoTs ticking, gets CCed again and dies.

When talking about larger groups, say, a whole room with spawns of 3-5 with varying movement speeds, sight ranges and more complex terrain like cliffs, fences, destructible obstacles and other variables, the potential ways to mess up rises almost exponentially.

I can't speak to MMOs besides WoW, but that's definitely not true in WoW.  Even initially, you could only use a mana potion every two minutes.  And for a while for, you can only use one potion per combat.  The whole point has been, in fact, to get away from "spam potions to win."

On Aion I could set up my character to more or less sustain an indefinite supply of mana, and potions were on 30 second cooldowns, while treatments were on 16 seconds. On Champions there were no mana potions, instead they used the energy builder/spender on all characters, and added other ways to potentially sustain attacks indefinitely as well. GW2 did away with mana/energy altogether, except for Thieves who used a small, finite energy pool with fast regen.

Ultimately, I suppose it boils down to how resources in the game are designed, as long as there's a sufficient feeling of scarcity of resources that necessitates some strategic decision making (i.e. can't just spam your best heal/damage skill/CC-lock etc all the time), how you go about doing it is really just minor details based on the desired flavor/feel of the game.

[MagicalMaster]

Haven't forgotten this, just been very busy last few days, will reply in-depth tomorrow.

[MagicalMaster]

Squatting Monk wrote...

No, I mean decrement the number of uses for the special ability that cools down. Isn't that what you did in the demo module you had?

Yeah, I think I see what you mean, the question is making sure the new "icon" is put at the correct spot on the quickbar each time and is removed each time.

Aelis Eine wrote...

As I mentioned in a previous post, some attacks, like Flame Arrow and normal bow autoattacks go as far as the screen can clip. I definitely wouldn't give AoEs the same amount of range. Neither will I give them the same chance of proccing secondary effects.

Secondary effects being?...

Slows?  DoTs?  Stuns?

And why wouldn't a Fireball have the same range as a Flame Arrow, out of curiosity?

Aelis Eine wrote...

Probably 3-5, with the 5s having uneven HPs so that some of them will drop faster than others. Some AoE skills might even cap at precisely that amount, either as a hard cap (max 5 arrows fired, max 3 targets chained) or an effective one, like really small melee range AoE that typically hits 3 targets at best.

If you're keeping it that low, then yeah, that might work.  The main thing you want to avoid is a situation where a player feels they might as well spam an AOE attack on a single target OR multiple targets because the net effect is basically the same and it's a lot simpler to only worry about one ability.

Aelis Eine wrote...

I'll probably go by a per-encounter basis, in keeping with an ARPG-style design. It seems anti-climatic for a player to die because they ran out of "ammo", so to speak.

I'm talking per encounter.  When I say "small window of time" I mean your 3-5 rounds.  When I say "total times" I mean for the whole fight.  Presumably you'll have fights lasting several minutes, right?  So, assuming none of the mistakes are instant death type mistakes, should the player die if they mess up more than 6 times in a 3 minute fight or die if they mess up more than once within a 30 second window of that fight?

Does that distinction make sense?  Not sure if I'm explaining it clearly.  A health pool for the entire fight or a health pool for a 30 second window that resets?

Aelis Eine wrote...

Ultimately, I suppose it boils down to how resources in the game are designed, as long as there's a sufficient feeling of scarcity of resources that necessitates some strategic decision making (i.e. can't just spam your best heal/damage skill/CC-lock etc all the time), how you go about doing it is really just minor details based on the desired flavor/feel of the game.

Provided the strategic decision making is good, yeah.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 09 octobre 2012 - 03:50 .

[Aelis Eine]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Secondary effects being?...

Slows?  DoTs?  Stuns?

Very likely not stuns, unless they're very short stuns that would effectively make them just interrupts. Slows, very likely. DoTs, quite likely too. Attack or Damage debuffs, or maybe something that procs a buff on the player.

And why wouldn't a Fireball have the same range as a Flame Arrow, out of curiosity?

There's a lot of ways to handwave that in lore. As an infinite cast maybe it takes more energy to maintain a longer ranged Fireball because of the higher explosive power it packs, and maybe there would be a longer ranged Fireball with limited uses. Or maybe the Flame Arrow is simply more aerodynamic and better for longer ranges, at the cost of AoE payload. Either way, Flame Arrow being good for long distance sniping and Fireball for closer range kabooms makes sense to me.

I'm talking per encounter.  When I say "small window of time" I mean your 3-5 rounds.  When I say "total times" I mean for the whole fight.  Presumably you'll have fights lasting several minutes, right?  So, assuming none of the mistakes are instant death type mistakes, should the player die if they mess up more than 6 times in a 3 minute fight or die if they mess up more than once within a 30 second window of that fight?

Does that distinction make sense?  Not sure if I'm explaining it clearly.  A health pool for the entire fight or a health pool for a 30 second window that resets?

On trash? A mob would probably die in a matter of seconds. A zerg of mobs might take a minute or slightly more, not so much because of DPS but because of the need to divide and conquer by kiting and line of sight. I'm aiming for an average dungeon to take 20 minutes to clear for a party of 3, and slightly under an hour solo.

Also, it isn't really a 30 second window that resets, because the heals are not full heals. It could very well be a character having 300HP and losing 200HP over say, 18 seconds, then healing back 120 to go up to 220, losing another 200, healing back to 140, winning with 80HP left and resting to reset cooldowns.

I should dust off my old mod and see if I can make it work with CEP2.4, then I can show you a bit of what I mean.

Anyway, moving on, how many active abilities should a player have access to? i.e. buttons to press that make something happen - AoE, Single Target, Buffs, Debuffs, Heals etc. This is in the context of NWN specifically, i.e. 36 hotkey slots max, but a good majority of them are bound to less than ideal keys with no way to rebind - how does a player hit Ctrl+F12 while trying to kite in a circle, for example?

Also, what are the bare minimum skills that every character should have? I listed 1 single target, 1 AoE and a heal, but there's a few others I'm not sure about so I thought I'd ask a second opinion.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 10 octobre 2012 - 01:08 .

[MagicalMaster]

Aelis Eine wrote...

Very likely not stuns, unless they're very short stuns that would effectively make them just interrupts. Slows, very likely. DoTs, quite likely too. Attack or Damage debuffs, or maybe something that procs a buff on the player.

So, in reality, it wouldn't be 70% AoE to 100% single target, it would be 70% AoE to 150% single target or something.

Aelis Eine wrote...

On trash? A mob would probably die in a matter of seconds. A zerg of mobs might take a minute or slightly more, not so much because of DPS but because of the need to divide and conquer by kiting and line of sight. I'm aiming for an average dungeon to take 20 minutes to clear for a party of 3, and slightly under an hour solo.

I think we might wildy diverge here.  Why is it possible to solo it if it is designed for 3 people?

Aelis Eine wrote...

Also, it isn't really a 30 second window that resets, because the heals are not full heals. It could very well be a character having 300HP and losing 200HP over say, 18 seconds, then healing back 120 to go up to 220, losing another 200, healing back to 140, winning with 80HP left and resting to reset cooldowns.

That's another way to do it, yes, since then if you "fall behind" and play perfectly you can "catch up" with heals.  That also does limit the damage you can put out, though.

Aelis Eine wrote...

Anyway, moving on, how many active abilities should a player have access to? i.e. buttons to press that make something happen - AoE, Single Target, Buffs, Debuffs, Heals etc. This is in the context of NWN specifically, i.e. 36 hotkey slots max, but a good majority of them are bound to less than ideal keys with no way to rebind - how does a player hit Ctrl+F12 while trying to kite in a circle, for example?

No more than 12 time sensitive skills, I'd say .  If you want to go beyond that with buffs that can be cast after resting or something, sure.

I'd say 4-6 abilities in the "core abilities" to be used often (probably don't include AoE in that) and can have some more utility stuff or AoE or similar stuff.

Aelis Eine wrote...

Also, what are the bare minimum skills that every character should have? I listed 1 single target, 1 AoE and a heal, but there's a few others I'm not sure about so I thought I'd ask a second opinion.

That really depends upon your goal.  You want people to be able to avoid damage a lot more than I do, for example.

In the thing I'm working on (and hope to show you fairly soon), I went with 6 single target damage abilities (some with cooldowns of up to 2 minutes) and 3 AoE abilities, didn't include any utility yet.  I'm also concerned that even that might be too much, still wondering about that.  There would also be a heal, so there's 10 abilities right there potentially.

[Aelis Eine]

MagicalMaster wrote...

So, in reality, it wouldn't be 70% AoE to 100% single target, it would be 70% AoE to 150% single target or something.

In the case of DoTs, the only autoattack I had in mind that would proc one was the infinite use spell for fire-specced mages, otherwise everyone else is pretty much 70:100, and I'm still not completely decided on whether fire should proc a burn or just have more damage across the single target and AoE.

I think we might wildy diverge here.  Why is it possible to solo it if it is designed for 3 people?

It seems to be pretty common practice for soloists to attempt party content in MMOs for a challenge - I see Youtubes of those for Aion, I've personally done it myself on Champions Online, and I think even in WoW there's instances of players soloing 5 man content? I personally believe that if something is designed for 3 average players, 1 very good player is very likely going to be able to solo it, or at least parts of it while skipping a few hard fights here and there. Especially if they have quite a few pieces of the gear dropped there, and are soloing to complete the set, compared to 3 players without a single piece between them.

That's another way to do it, yes, since then if you "fall behind" and play perfectly you can "catch up" with heals.  That also does limit the damage you can put out, though.

The old mod I helped out with had full heal potions in NPC stores so I had to build around that by designing encounters that, in the right situation, could put out damage faster than the player could heal back by chugging potions. It would be a nice change of pace to work with lower damage outputs and still be able to create a challenge.

No more than 12 time sensitive skills, I'd say .  If you want to go beyond that with buffs that can be cast after resting or something, sure.

I'd say 4-6 abilities in the "core abilities" to be used often (probably don't include AoE in that) and can have some more utility stuff or AoE or similar stuff.

That really depends upon your goal.  You want people to be able to avoid damage a lot more than I do, for example.

In the thing I'm working on (and hope to show you fairly soon), I went with 6 single target damage abilities (some with cooldowns of up to 2 minutes) and 3 AoE abilities, didn't include any utility yet.  I'm also concerned that even that might be too much, still wondering about that.  There would also be a heal, so there's 10 abilities right there potentially.

Right now my list is shaping up to look like 1 energy builder, 1 aoe, 1 basic heal and 6 more selectable abilities. I think some kind of gap closer like a movement speed buff or teleport attack is necessary for melee classes

A sustained burst" buff, like 3 rounds of uber damage with 1 minute cooldown seems quite important for tactical depth on all classes too. As is an emergency button, like click to get 50% damage imm for 18 seconds or 100% conceal for 9 seconds on 1 minute cooldown. I'm putting those under selectable skills so that multiclasses can choose which one works best for them though.

I'm not sure if I should have a stun/CC breaker though, not sure whether they should be in the list of 6 with different versions for different classes, or a generic one given for free, or simply integrated into the emergency button.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 11 octobre 2012 - 05:03 .

[MagicalMaster]

Good news: lots of stuff to do in Mists of Pandaria.

Bad news: lots of stuff to do in Mists of Pandaria.

Whew.

Aelis Eine wrote...

In the case of DoTs, the only autoattack I had in mind that would proc one was the infinite use spell for fire-specced mages, otherwise everyone else is pretty much 70:100, and I'm still not completely decided on whether fire should proc a burn or just have more damage across the single target and AoE.

Ah.  Well, just keep in mind my point of wanting to avoid a situation where the difference between single target and AoE that it's nearly as a effective to spam AoE on single targets.

Aelis Eine wrote...

It seems to be pretty common practice for soloists to attempt party content in MMOs for a challenge - I see Youtubes of those for Aion, I've personally done it myself on Champions Online, and I think even in WoW there's instances of players soloing 5 man content? I personally believe that if something is designed for 3 average players, 1 very good player is very likely going to be able to solo it, or at least parts of it while skipping a few hard fights here and there. Especially if they have quite a few pieces of the gear dropped there, and are soloing to complete the set, compared to 3 players without a single piece between them.

Only a handful of specializations in WoW have a hope of soloing 5 man content and only then if they really outgear it.  It really comes down to tanks that have enough self-healing and gear to keep up with the incoming damage.  And on anything that's relevant, they have no hope of soloing it.

And I somewhat disagree, depending upon how bad you think the average player is.  But I can easily show you content that's easily doable with three people but impossible to solo.  But I also don't think players should basically be able to avoid all damage.  And how powerful are you planning on making gear here, if it's going to nearly triple character power?

Aelis Eine wrote...

The old mod I helped out with had full heal potions in NPC stores so I had to build around that by designing encounters that, in the right situation, could put out damage faster than the player could heal back by chugging potions. It would be a nice change of pace to work with lower damage outputs and still be able to create a challenge.

I completely agree with the last statement, but I also think players should expect to take damage and slowly depelete their health pool, plus deplete it more quickly if they mess up (and potentially basically get instantly killed).

Aelis Eine wrote...

A sustained burst" buff, like 3 rounds of uber damage with 1 minute cooldown seems quite important for tactical depth on all classes too. As is an emergency button, like click to get 50% damage imm for 18 seconds or 100% conceal for 9 seconds on 1 minute cooldown. I'm putting those under selectable skills so that multiclasses can choose which one works best for them though.

A few of those buttons are good, just want to avoid too many of them, especially if they're stackable.

Aelis Eine wrote...

I'm not sure if I should have a stun/CC breaker though, not sure whether they should be in the list of 6 with different versions for different classes, or a generic one given for free, or simply integrated into the emergency button.

I don't really see a need unless you're planning on having heavy PvP.