115 réponses à ce sujet

[bas273]

...quit the field? (no subject spoilers )

I think they would've still lost the battle but King Cailan, Duncan and Loghain might've been able to flee and retreat to Denerim.
With King Cailan and Duncan alive they could call for the aid of the Grey Wardens from Orlais.

What do you think?

Modifié par bas273, 27 décembre 2009 - 09:27 .

[SarEnyaDor]

I think it would have been a much different game........



Also, I think the messanger sent to Orlais with the request for aid would never get there - he would mysteriously disappear and no one would ever know if the message got there or not.

[Kenshen]

There was no archdemon at that fight, least as far as I know so I think they win that battle and all key parties live.



"With King Cailan and Duncan alive they could call for the aid of the Grey Wardens from Orlais."



See that was the problem to begin with. Lohgain would have nothing to do with Orlais and resented Cailan from even mentioning it. The only way to prevent the king from calling Orlais for help was to quit the field as you put it. I hope I spelled that place right

[Grommash94]

They would've won the battle that day, and even if the archdemon DID strike, there would still be grey wardens to kill it.

[Herr Uhl]

Grommash94 wrote...

They would've won the battle that day, and even if the archdemon DID strike, there would still be grey wardens to kill it.

...since their army is so much larger than the one you must assemble?

[Edreal]

@Herr Uhl: I think the army at Ostagar was bigger than the army assembled at the Final Onslaught. Cailan and Duncan were quite confident about winning, so this means that they had quite a large number of soldiers.

[thegreateski]

We would have swiped all the Darkspawn off the field.

Then we would have pushed them back into the forest.

Then we would have pushed them back underground

Then we would go underground and kill the Archdemon.

[Herr Uhl]

I got the impression that it was roughly the size of Eamons army. Cailans that is. Loghain with roughly the same amount, if we say that all armies you recruit are equal, and Loghain kept the majority of his troops (who join you) you would have about three times as much manpower. Cailan was confident since they had beaten two small bands of darkspawn pretty easily.



And when were Duncan confident?

[reepneep]

Edreal wrote...
Cailan and Duncan were quite confident about winning, so this means that they had quite a large number of soldiers.

Cailan was a good-natured buffoon who thought war was a game. 
Duncan was very worried and was pressing the king to wait for reinforcements.
Loghain was the only one with experience running a war and he obviously though the battle, as Cailan had set it up, was unwinable.  He said so at the Landsmeet and gave every impression of pessimism at Ostagar.  If he hadn't quit the field the horde would have killed everyone.

[Grommash94]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I got the impression that it was roughly the size of Eamons army. Cailans that is. Loghain with roughly the same amount, if we say that all armies you recruit are equal, and Loghain kept the majority of his troops (who join you) you would have about three times as much manpower. Cailan was confident since they had beaten two small bands of darkspawn pretty easily.

And when were Duncan confident?

It was fairly large. Even Alistair said that the King had almost defeated the darkspawn.

Duncan said that the plan will work your majesty.

Plus, they had the tactical advantage as they were defending...whereas in Denerim they were assaulting. If Loghain had come and flanked, it is safe to say the Darkspawn would have fled or been slain.

[Herr Uhl]

But that was the darkspawn that they had met thus far, no serious incursions.



Duncan saying that the plan will work did quite the opposite to me.



And the tactical advantage when defending is obvious. If the archdemon would have been there, the army would have been larger. So I agree that they probably would have won the battle at Ostagar, but they would not stand a chance if the archdemon brought his main army.

[Selej]

Grommash94 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I got the impression that it was roughly the size of Eamons army. Cailans that is. Loghain with roughly the same amount, if we say that all armies you recruit are equal, and Loghain kept the majority of his troops (who join you) you would have about three times as much manpower. Cailan was confident since they had beaten two small bands of darkspawn pretty easily.

And when were Duncan confident?

It was fairly large. Even Alistair said that the King had almost defeated the darkspawn.

Duncan said that the plan will work your majesty.

Plus, they had the tactical advantage as they were defending...whereas in Denerim they were assaulting. If Loghain had come and flanked, it is safe to say the Darkspawn would have fled or been slain.

Alistar was repeating what he had heard. He had no real experience in war or combat, he was kept from the frontlines for the most part, even by Duncan because of who his father is.

Duncan told him that the plan would work because to the best of his knowledge, he thought it would. Loghain is the one that had the experience waging war, not Duncan. Just because you're a Grey Warden doesn't mean you'll be as knowledgeable as a commander in the military that has done nothing but that for 30+ years.

[robertthebard]

reepneep wrote...

Edreal wrote...
Cailan and Duncan were quite confident about winning, so this means that they had quite a large number of soldiers.

Cailan was a good-natured buffoon who thought war was a game. 
Duncan was very worried and was pressing the king to wait for reinforcements.
Loghain was the only one with experience running a war and he obviously though the battle, as Cailan had set it up, was unwinable.  He said so at the Landsmeet and gave every impression of pessimism at Ostagar.  If he hadn't quit the field the horde would have killed everyone.

Allow me to point out the one big fault with your post; the plan for the battle was Loghain's, not Cailin's.  If Loghain had played the hammer, as he was supposed to, then the force would have been divided, fighting on two fronts, instead of one, and it's very likely that they would have, at the least, ran the darkspawn off with heavy losses.  Even outnumbered 3 to 1, they would have had a good chance, since the darkspawn would have to defend two fronts, instead of just one.

Now, whether they could have saved the King, I don't know.  We don't know how long the beacon was lit, nor do we know how many darkspawn came into the Tower of Ishal after the beacon was lit.

[ReubenLiew]

Cauthrien would be your love interest instead of Morrigan.

And boy howdy that is an awesome thought.

[SarEnyaDor]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Cauthrien would be your love interest instead of Morrigan.
And boy howdy that is an awesome thought.

You know how to brighten any thread

[ReubenLiew]

SarEnyaDor wrote...
You know how to brighten any thread

Like a deer caught in headlights!

[reepneep]

robertthebard wrote...

reepneep wrote...

Edreal wrote...
Cailan and Duncan were quite confident about winning, so this means that they had quite a large number of soldiers.

Cailan was a good-natured buffoon who thought war was a game. 
Duncan was very worried and was pressing the king to wait for reinforcements.
Loghain was the only one with experience running a war and he obviously though the battle, as Cailan had set it up, was unwinable.  He said so at the Landsmeet and gave every impression of pessimism at Ostagar.  If he hadn't quit the field the horde would have killed everyone.

Allow me to point out the one big fault with your post; the plan for the battle was Loghain's, not Cailin's.  If Loghain had played the hammer, as he was supposed to, then the force would have been divided, fighting on two fronts, instead of one, and it's very likely that they would have, at the least, ran the darkspawn off with heavy losses.  Even outnumbered 3 to 1, they would have had a good chance, since the darkspawn would have to defend two fronts, instead of just one.

Now, whether they could have saved the King, I don't know.  We don't know how long the beacon was lit, nor do we know how many darkspawn came into the Tower of Ishal after the beacon was lit.

I don't see it as a problem as I seem to have a different understanding of who was in charge (the King) than you do.  I'm under the impression the King decided when and where to fight leaving the how up to Loghain.

Cailan was dead set on one huge battle 'like in the tales'.  Loghain saw his King pushing him into a battle he thought was unwinable.    We can agree on this, yes? 

Is it that much of a stretch to believe that Loghain devised that plan simply because it provided an easy out if he couldn't convince Cailan to be sensible and/or the battle went as badly as he expected?

Also note that he didn't bail until the signal had been lit and it was clear the battle was lost.

You also overestimate the effectiveness of pincer attacks.  With two forces of roughly equal size they are quite effective, even more so when the opposition is outnumbered. When the flanking army is severely outnumbered however (as various conversations at Ostagar seem to indicate) they don't work well at all.

[robertthebard]

reepneep wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

reepneep wrote...

Edreal wrote...
Cailan and Duncan were quite confident about winning, so this means that they had quite a large number of soldiers.

Cailan was a good-natured buffoon who thought war was a game. 
Duncan was very worried and was pressing the king to wait for reinforcements.
Loghain was the only one with experience running a war and he obviously though the battle, as Cailan had set it up, was unwinable.  He said so at the Landsmeet and gave every impression of pessimism at Ostagar.  If he hadn't quit the field the horde would have killed everyone.

Allow me to point out the one big fault with your post; the plan for the battle was Loghain's, not Cailin's.  If Loghain had played the hammer, as he was supposed to, then the force would have been divided, fighting on two fronts, instead of one, and it's very likely that they would have, at the least, ran the darkspawn off with heavy losses.  Even outnumbered 3 to 1, they would have had a good chance, since the darkspawn would have to defend two fronts, instead of just one.

Now, whether they could have saved the King, I don't know.  We don't know how long the beacon was lit, nor do we know how many darkspawn came into the Tower of Ishal after the beacon was lit.

I don't see it as a problem as I seem to have a different understanding of who was in charge (the King) than you do.  I'm under the impression the King decided when and where to fight leaving the how up to Loghain.

Cailan was dead set on one huge battle 'like in the tales'.  Loghain saw his King pushing him into a battle he thought was unwinable.    We can agree on this, yes? 

Is it that much of a stretch to believe that Loghain devised that plan simply because it provided an easy out if he couldn't convince Cailan to be sensible and/or the battle went as badly as he expected?

Also note that he didn't bail until the signal had been lit and it was clear the battle was lost.

You also overestimate the effectiveness of pincer attacks.  With two forces of roughly equal size they are quite effective, even more so when the opposition is outnumbered. When the flanking army is severely outnumbered however (as various conversations at Ostagar seem to indicate) they don't work well at all.

No.  If you play the cutscene immediately after the Origin Story, where you're marching to Ostagar, you will see that that fortress was strategically placed, making it a perfect location to stem the darkspawn.  They are channeled into a narrow valley, and if forces attack from both sides, they will be crushed.  The whole plan is Loghain's, and he is renowned for being a brilliant strategist, and while pulling out wasn't all that brilliant, if he'd proceeded with the plan, then it would have worked.  I doubt it would have been in time to save the King, but we can't know.

[reepneep]

robertthebard wrote...
No.  If you play the cutscene immediately after the Origin Story, where you're marching to Ostagar, you will see that that fortress was strategically placed, making it a perfect location to stem the darkspawn.  They are channeled into a narrow valley, and if forces attack from both sides, they will be crushed.  The whole plan is Loghain's, and he is renowned for being a brilliant strategist, and while pulling out wasn't all that brilliant, if he'd proceeded with the plan, then it would have worked.  I doubt it would have been in time to save the King, but we can't know.

Agree to disagree then.  I thought points I made were pretty obvious.<_<
Maybe the almighty Mr. Gaider will explain Loghain's thought process for us.

Modifié par reepneep, 28 décembre 2009 - 01:08 .

[Kenshen]

"Cailan was dead set on one huge battle 'like in the tales'. Loghain saw his King pushing him into a battle he thought was unwinable. We can agree on this, yes? "



I don't agree with this. Loghain had a problem with the king even thinking of calling for outside help and considering who Cailan wanted to call it isn't hard to see why Loghain did what he did, least for me. Another thing that Cailan did that didn't please Loghain was putting such high stock on the grey wardens. When Cailan decided it would be the wardens who lit the beacon that seem to be the point Loghain decided to betry his king.

[reepneep]

aryon69 wrote...

"Cailan was dead set on one huge battle 'like in the tales'. Loghain saw his King pushing him into a battle he thought was unwinable. We can agree on this, yes? "

I don't agree with this. Loghain had a problem with the king even thinking of calling for outside help and considering who Cailan wanted to call it isn't hard to see why Loghain did what he did, least for me. Another thing that Cailan did that didn't please Loghain was putting such high stock on the grey wardens. When Cailan decided it would be the wardens who lit the beacon that seem to be the point Loghain decided to betry his king.

Ah, but outside help from where?  Orlais, of course.  He never voiced any objection to waiting for the Redcliff's forces to show up.

As for the lighting of the beacon, thats possible.  Still, his objection could have been rooted in the Warden's Orlesian connection again.

[Fleshsucker]

Seriously..4 newbs beat the crap outta an Oger in the tower..4 Newbs,,Does it really matter who had the stronger force..Since the DS are obviously ..Weak and weak minded..Logain went fer Tea. and The King and Duncan just had a Hangover that battle it happens....Besides dis the traitor in the cave get his Dinner?

[Kenshen]

Yeah sorry I meant Orlais. Not sure how many times you hear the king mention this. You see the same reaction again latter in a cut scene when Anora asks her father if he killed the king. He is dead set on not seeking Orlais help and I can understand why.



Cailan on the other hand was the one who wouldn't wait for Emmon to send his army because he didn't think he would need them. Duncan seems concerned about that but not enough to fully object. At that point no one has seen the archdemon except grey wardens I suppose but those would only have been dreams. Other than that I can see why everyone but the wardens thought this wasn't a true blight.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

From what has been reported in the Wiki, Alastair was right that we lit the Beacon late, Loghain knew at that point the damage would have already been done and thus sending more lives in to try 'crush' the enemy would be futile.

If the cut-scene of the battle follows with the action taking place at the same time, then even had Loghain not withdrawn, Cailan would already be a broken in half (on the inside) ragdoll and Duncan most likely decapitated as it looked like he was about to be.

Loghain's distrust of the Grey Wardens stems back to when Maric was still alive and Loghain believed the Wardens were in on an ambush that Maric encountered at the Circle of Magi which had been overtaken by some Orlesian Mages.

They had only just signed the peace treaty with the Orlesians ten years prior to the games events. After spending several years defending Ferelden from the Orlesians trying to take it back and more years prior to that reclaiming Ferelden.

Anyone that can't understand Loghain's mindset, the beacon lighting was delayed, Loghain believed this further proof that the 'allegedly' almight Wardens were in fact trying to aid the Orlesians in another invasion and using the 'blight' as a cover story. Considering how Howe in the past had sided with the Orlesians, I believe that was a catalyst in possibly him spinning lies stating they were planning another attack, some reason Loghain trusted his opinion and the rest is history.

Mmm, Ser Cauthrien as a romance option *swoon*

In my opinion, the Wardens brought the whole mess on themselves. Duncan should have known whom the real person to talk to regarding combat would be Loghain and he should have told him the 'dark secret' about how a Warden is needed to kill the Archdemon, the only issue he would then have is proving to Loghain that he wasn't some sort of Orlesian spy and prove that there was an Archdemon leading the blight.

[Puppy Love]

I must say though... it always seemed so considerate of the darkspawn to fight at the time and place of Cailan's choosing. I mean, that waiting was even an option, and that they were willing to wait til that night specifically after Cailan got his forces ready. I was not aware we were on such speaking terms with the darkspawn to engage in such honorable warfare. I always figured the darkspawn were more a horde washing over the land. But apparently we have civilized discourse, as there's no other way for such a battle to take place. Cailan shouldn't be fighting wars, he should be playing the lotto.