115 réponses à ce sujet

[Default137]

reepneep wrote...

Edreal wrote...
Cailan and Duncan were quite confident about winning, so this means that they had quite a large number of soldiers.

Cailan was a good-natured buffoon who thought war was a game. 
Duncan was very worried and was pressing the king to wait for reinforcements.
Loghain was the only one with experience running a war and he obviously though the battle, as Cailan had set it up, was unwinable.  He said so at the Landsmeet and gave every impression of pessimism at Ostagar.  If he hadn't quit the field the horde would have killed everyone.

^^

If Loghain had charged in, everyone would have died, including Loghain.

Look at the fight as we saw it, every soldier with Cailen was pretty much dead right when Loghain would have charged in, and at least 3/4ths to Horde was still very alive, and very angry, and we probably only saw a half of the horde, as there was only one Ogre, and all that jazz.

The battle was lost from the second Cailen was put in charge, he was a self rightous buffon who thought war was a cute little game that would get him glory and honor, and due to his stupidity, and inability to listen to Loghain, he ended up throwing all his forces into an unwinable battle rather then fighting them in smaller fights they could actually win.

[SeanMurphy2]

The signal from the beacon may have come late and the King could have died anyway. With Loghain in the party he tells Wynne he could not have reached Cailan in time.



"And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks but perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the chantry."



If they had won the battle. They could have got complacent, thought they had won and left. Or they might have to wait there for months for the Archdemon to appear with the bulk of the horde. At Denerim someone said they were outnumbered 3 to 1 by the Darkspawn. It would still be a hard battle to end the Blight.

[Arkaelis]

Default137 wrote...

If Loghain had charged in, everyone would have died, including Loghain.

Look at the fight as we saw it, every soldier with Cailen was pretty much dead right when Loghain would have charged in, and at least 3/4ths to Horde was still very alive, and very angry, and we probably only saw a half of the horde, as there was only one Ogre, and all that jazz.

The battle was lost from the second Cailen was put in charge, he was a self rightous buffon who thought war was a cute little game that would get him glory and honor, and due to his stupidity, and inability to listen to Loghain, he ended up throwing all his forces into an unwinable battle rather then fighting them in smaller fights they could actually win.

I agree that the battle would've gone arwy regardless of Loghain's actions, but when you reach the top of the tower to light the beacon, Alistair mentions that they "surely missed the signal" for when to light it.  Assuming that you were late to light the beacon, Cailen's army was probably taking heavy casulties by then.

... but then again I wonder if a  "what's taking so long?" moment passed through Loghain's head.

[Original182]

I think by making Loghain quit only after the beacon has been lit, Mr Gaider wants to shift all blame from our new Grey Wardens to Loghain.

After killing the ogre that killed the king, Duncan also looked up to see the tower ablaze, trying to impress upon the gamer that Duncan knows he was betrayed by Loghain. If Duncan had looked at a tower where the beacon is unlit, then the gamer will think "oh no, it's my fault they all died, because I was too slow", which is not how the story was written.

So it's safe to say we're supposed to blame ONLY Loghain, it's how the story should be.

Modifié par Original182, 28 décembre 2009 - 02:32 .

[Elessie]

If Loghain needs the beacon to know when to charge (since he cannot see the battle from his position) then how does he know it's too late and going through with it would be pointless? I think he had to have decided beforehand.

Modifié par Elessie, 28 décembre 2009 - 02:54 .

[Original182]

To answer the OP, the battle would have been won, based on the accounts of many individuals.

Even Flemeth said Loghain had quit the field, and that the hearts of men hold darker secrets than the darkspawn. Again Loghain is portayed as the villain who betrayed the king and left him to die. She didn't say Loghain was right to leave the king because the battle was lost anyway, or something like that. That means the battle was winnable.

And we are talking about Loghain here, the man who with Maric drove off the Orlesians. He may be a traitor, but he's no slouch. He could easily beat a small darkspawn group at Ostagar.

Modifié par Original182, 28 décembre 2009 - 05:56 .

[Kenshen]

Well I have learned a few things with this thread and that is a good thing. I have to agree with Original182 but he said it much better than I did.

[Original182]

Sniff thanks man, it's nice to be agreed with. ->

[ShadowAldrius]

Plus there's the whole morale factor. Loghain being on the battlefield alone would have made a huge difference.



Personally, I think, like most things in the game, there's a fair degree of ambiguity. But my personal opinion is that if Loghain's forces had gone onto the battlefield, they would have won together.

[Default137]

Two main problems.



By the time we see the field at all, ala, get the Beacon lit, the field is literally lost, NOTHING Loghain does would have saved Cailen, and Duncan probably would have died regardless anyway, while they may have won that battle, it would have incured MASSIVE casualties, and wouldn't have been intelligent to get into for any reason whatsoever besides blind loyalty.



Even if Loghain charged in, there was barely anyone left to inspire, the fact he was charging wouldn't have boosted anyones morale, they were all DEAD, it would have been Loghains forces versus the Darkspawn, and even if he wasn't outnumbered, would have been a pyrrhic victory at the best, and a total massacre at the worst.



Even not knowing that this was only the start of a Blight, and just thinking it was a minor skirmish, NOONE is going to suicide their entire army into the Darkspawn to win favors back home, they are going to forfeit the field, and make due with what little they can.

[Asante81]

What if Loghain did not...
... he would have had the chance to jump in front of Cailan to get eaten by the Ogre instead! Cheers to that image...

Me yelling: "Munch away, ogre! MUNCH!!!"

Modifié par Asante81, 28 décembre 2009 - 05:57 .

[Cregan the Brigand]

I don't think it would have changed the outcome. The darkspawn numbers were just too great. It was a rout long before the becon was lit.



Ol' King had it coming anyways, him and his delusions of grandeur.

[SeanMurphy2]

If the beacon really was lit too late. Then the King was going to die. He would already be surrounded by darkspawn. Loghain can't instantly cut through the whole darkspawn horde to reach the King.

The two Grey Wardens had the responsibility to light the beacon. They are at fault as well.

Arguably Loghain could have charged into battle earlier without waiting for the signal. But that could be risky. Loghain's whole army could be caught in the valley in between the darkspawn horde. I think the plan was to draw out  the whole horde so Loghain's force would not in turn be flanked.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 28 décembre 2009 - 06:42 .

[Dennis Carpenter]

One thing everyone seems to be forgetting is loghain sent forces to turn the grey wardens that were coming in reserve back to orlais. In you conversation with Riordan you find out there were some 200 grey wardens coming so had they been allowed to enter ferelden and loghain had done what he was supposed to the battle would have come without a hitch and the grey wardens would have then hunted down the archdeamon.

[Culack]

Ok, here is my 2 cents.



The plan was win-able with a few modifications. First off the impression I get is that the army had been camped for some time at Ostagar. That being the case I would have stationed a longbow man at teh tops of all those nice high ledges had him shot an arrow out in all the directions south, and then used my me to cut down any of the trees leading to the arrows. This creates a clear field of fire for bowmen. Leaving the stumps as well as cutting up the trees and leaving bits scattered about would have broken up the charging hordes. Then I would have placed all the archeres at the tops on those ledges giving them the height advantage in firing at the horde.



Second was the king had a good defensive position. Letting the dogs charge caused the horde to break its momentum, but I would not have charged myself. That only opened up the battle and tired the men out. Having them stay in the funnel caused by the two halves of Ostagar would have limited the numbers of darkspawn fighting. This would have made it easy for the archers to rain death down.



Third is a little tactic I like to call pommel whipping. Right before the battle when Duncan was a step or two begind the King he should have pulled out his sword and pommel whipped Calain. That would have knocked him out. Then have a few of the aides pick him up and carry him off the field of battle. So what if Duncan is going to be executed for striking the King, he is going to die in battle against the horde anyway.



This would have allowed the King to coordinate the battle from the rear, he would have seen what ass wipe (Loghain) did, and turned the troops around to fight. These tactics might not have won the Blight but they would have detroyed the horde. This would have allowed time for more troops, even those who aren't Orlesian, to arrive.



On a side note, for those who kill Loghain at the end I think he gets off to easy. If I remember history people who committed treason against any monarchy were hung by the neck the slow, suffocation, way. That would have been a better ending, hanging by the end of a rope slowly running out of air ass your pissed and crapped yourself.

[Asante81]

Culack wrote...

If I remember history people who committed treason against any monarchy were hung by the neck the slow, suffocation, way. That would have been a better ending, hanging by the end of a rope slowly running out of air ass your pissed and crapped yourself.

Proper treatment for people who commit high treason
And yes, proper execution is an art...

Addition:

• Dragged on a hurdle (a wooden frame) to the place of execution. This is one possible meaning of drawn.
• Hanged by the neck for a short time or until almost dead (hanged).
• Disembowelled and emasculated and the genitalia and entrails burned before the condemned's eyes
• The body beheaded, then divided into four parts (quartered).

Modifié par Asante81, 28 décembre 2009 - 06:58 .

[Dennis Carpenter]

As far as loghain getting off easy I let him become a grey warden slept with morragin then killed the archdeamon and married anora then I made sure Logahains bedroom was right behind ours so he would have to listen to his precious anora getting boffed every night..............:-P

[kormesios]

The "battle was lost" anyway thing is getting seriously revsionist, here. 

There isn't a ton of in-game information available--we don't get a bird's eye view of the fight, don't know the absolute numbers, dispositions, etc.  Certainly the experienced people think Cailan's being rash.  That doesn't mean this battle is going to be lost, though, only that it may not be necessary to fight at that time.  Obviously Duncan knows the blight can't end without the Archdemon being seen.

But we have more information--the two sets of witnesses who did have a good view both saw treachery, not a battle that was already lost.  This is what the returning Circle Mages reported at that ill-fated tower conference; and it's what Morrigan & Flemeth told you.  Neither one has any obvious reason to lie.

Also, getting massacred is quite a bit different than simply losing--complete slaughter was exceptionally rare in medieval battles.  Especially with fortifications at their back to retreat into, the odds of the Wardens and king being killed to a man would be very low.  Unless they were surrounded and isolated because the reserves never showed up . . .

Default137 wrote...
If Loghain had charged in, everyone would have died, including Loghain.

Look
at the fight as we saw it, every soldier with Cailen was pretty much
dead right when Loghain would have charged in, and at least 3/4ths to
Horde was still very alive, and very angry, and we probably only saw a
half of the horde, as there was only one Ogre, and all that jazz.

There is no shot that tells you "at least 3/4 of the Horde" was alive.  All you get are shots around the king & Duncan, who are fighting in the van and get overwhelmed there; and we know that happens after Loghain retreats, but not whether it was "right when" he reatreated or minutes or hours later.  There's no basis to come up with any estimate of relative strengths or losses, state of the battle, or for that matter even of knowing how many men Loghain had.

reepneep wrote...
Loghain was the only one with experience running a war and he obviously though the battle, as Cailan had set it up, was unwinable.  He said so at the Landsmeet and gave every impression of pessimism at Ostagar.  If he hadn't quit the field the horde would have killed everyone.

The logic is also seriously flawed.  Loghain knew Loghain wasn't fighting, so of course he knew the battle would be lost.  His lies at the Landsmeet--which include more claims of treachery by the Wardens as well as his self-serving story--obviously can't be taken at face value.

Plus, at this point, Loghain is unhinged.  He thinks Orlais is a greater threat than t he darkspawn, and would prefer the army not engage so it was around to stop Orlais; even sincere advice he offers must be considered tainted for this reason.

Overall, Loghain's version of events is so weak, in fact, that many of those with experience at
warfare--the bannorn, including Teagan--immediately think something
shady was going on, despite Loghain being a supposed genius of previously unquestioned loyalty.

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

From what has been
reported in the Wiki, Alastair was right that we lit the Beacon late,
Loghain knew at that point the damage would have already been done and
thus sending more lives in to try 'crush' the enemy would be futile.

The signal was necessary because precisely Loghain couldn't know what was going on.  If he had a good view of the battlefield, he wouldn't need the signal; he could have just made a decision about when it was critical to advance, or seen the king's signal directly.

The wiki is no more or less an authority than these forums (unless you mean tome of knowledge, but it's not in there.)

[MGeezer]

I had a very different take than some people.

First, remember that Loghain controlled the Tower of Ishal and was very secretive about it. I personally think he intended all along for the dark spawn to surge up and take over. he could then say he waited for the signal but that it never came--no treason at all for him but a screw-up, and probably treason by the Grey Wardens. He certainly seems disgusted when he sees the beacon lit, and withdraws at that point and not before--I think because he hoped to be able to say he waited and never saw it lit--otherwise, why stay until it is lit, and only then leave. I can hardly prove this, but it would make sense of several things.

Second, I think people who assume the King's forces are overcome right away are being way too literal about passage of time. Even if the massacre took hours, they could not do this in a cut-scene. I assumed that after Loghain's departure, the great shot of the beacon forlornly burning is meant to indicate the passage of a fair amount of time, not the literal length of the shot, and thus the King's force take a whole to before theey are defeated.

Modifié par MGeezer, 28 décembre 2009 - 07:29 .

[Original182]

There is another evidence that seems to indicate Loghain had planned something treacherous since the beginning. I'm talking about Rendon Howe.

Before Ostagar, if you play the human noble, Arl Howe invaded and killed the PC's parents. Was this planned by Loghain and Howe since the beginning, to remove all threat to the throne?

Modifié par Original182, 28 décembre 2009 - 07:43 .

[kormesios]

MGeezer wrote...
I had a very different take than some people.

First, remember that Loghain controlled the Tower of Ishal and was very secretive about it. I personally think he intended all along for the dark spawn to surge up and take over. he could then say he waited for the signal but that it never came--no treason at all for him but a screw-up, and probably treason by the Grey Wardens

That's possible.  It's just possible to imagine he knew the darkspawn were in the tower or about to burst through the gate, but there's no real evidence offered for it and the timing would be very coincidental.

Original182 wrote...
There is another evidence that seems
to indicate Loghain had planned something treacherous since the
beginning. I'm talking about Rendon Howe.

Before Ostagar, if you
play the human noble, Arl Howe invaded and killed the PC's main
character. Was this planned by Loghain and Howe since the beginning, to
remove all threat to the throne?

Indeed.  Loghain was clearly in communication not only with Howe, but also with the libertarians in the Circle of Mages before the battle at Ostagar.  He was clearly planning to betray Cailan, regardless of the facts on the ground at Ostagar.

[Culack]

This is what happens when you promote peasants to the nobility. If Loghain had received a proper nobles education he would have known that the darkspawn, whether a Blight or not, were the bigger threat.



Plus he was an idiot. He wanted to preserve the army to fight off the Orlesians because he didn't think it was a Blight. He decided to ignore the enemy in front of him to chase a hypothetical situation.



As for everyone who says that Loghain did the smart thing by withdrawing you are flat out incorrect. Loghain had no way of knowing if the beacon was on time or not. That means that he planned his treachery ahead of time. His protests at the Landsmeet of needing to withdraw because he would have lost were excuses after the fact.



Fact 1) There was a horde of darkspawn at Ostagar. 2) The darkspawn need to be fought. 3) When you have a force of soldiers quit a field of battle with fighting then then you have lost. 4) Loghain LOST the battle for Ostagar.



Whether he would have won if he had stayed is a moot point. He left and thus LOST because of his irrational paranoia.



There is no blame on the two new Warden recruits. Loghain was planning on leaving anyway. Then he tries to assassinate the only other person with a claim to the throne (Eamon), tells a member of the Circle that he will let the Blood Mages have the tower if they help, breaks the law by selling off Fereldan citizens (even if they are second class ones), and instead of trying to form a compromise coalition to defeat the darkspawn he starts a civil war. All these things and more point to the fact the Loghain is a BAD GUY, VILLIAN, EVIL PERSON, etc.

[Realmzmaster]

Loghain could not know if the beacon was late being lit. This is the key point. Notice Ser Cauthrien reaction to Loghain's order to pull out and how Longhain looks and snaps at her. Loghain could not see the battlefield.

The plan was Loghain's. Notice when your character meets with King Calilan , Duncan and Loghain. Loghain is repeating his plan to Cailan. Loghain's plan was for Cailan's forces to draw the darkspawn to them. When the beacon was lit, Loghain was to attack from the flank.

We have information Loghain does not. We know the King is in trouble, Loghain does not.

Also an attack from the flank would have distracted the darkspawn forces and may have given the King's forces time to regroup.

Alistair states that they may be too late, but even he does not know. Alistair is making an assumption based on the time it took to get through the tower. He doe not survey the battlefield. Your character quickly lights the beacon, because you do not know when more darkspawn coming up through the tunnels under the tower will appear.

Original182 is correct in his assumption that Duncan's looking up at the tower and seeing the beacon lit meant that the Grey Wardens did not fail. Duncan's knows help should have arrived and it did not. The scene is there to show that Loghain betrayed the King.

Loghain let his hatred clouded his judgment. His duty was to find out the fate of his king. This does not mean he has to attack, but a scouting party should have been sent to check out the battlefield, which is what most commanders would do.

He ordered a retreat without knowing the situation.

[Asante81]

Original182 wrote...

There is another evidence that seems to indicate Loghain had planned something treacherous since the beginning. I'm talking about Rendon Howe.

Before Ostagar, if you play the human noble, Arl Howe invaded and killed the PC's main character. Was this planned by Loghain and Howe since the beginning, to remove all threat to the throne?

I guess that was Arl Howe taking the best chance he could get to finally satisfy his greed. The Howes wanted to get their hands on the teyrnir of Highever for a while if I remember right. Was something the old mentor was telling.
Apparently it wasn't enough for him to get his son/daughter married to the second born. This would have meant the second born Cousland would have become Arl/essa of Amaranthine and not his son/daughter Teyrn/a of Highever, which brought him next to nothing.
He couldn't assault the castle with all forces still in it. And when was the last time the Couslands went to battle with all their men while there was a chance to take Howes men there without seeming suspicious?
It was his only chance for this. Sending Bryce's men off earlier, keeping all but one family member in castle with the clever excuse of a delay.
I don't think Loghain was involved in this. Loghain did not betray Cailan to claim the throne. He betrayed Cailan to prevent Orlais walking straight through Ferelden with an army of Chevalier and Grey Wardens. As misguided as it was, I think Loghain suffered from a severe case of paranoia and misjudgement. If you remember he DID try to persuade Cailan several times NOT to fight alongside the Wardens. If he had planned to get him killed, would he have done that? I doubt it. And if he didn't plan this ahead, would it make sense to get rid of the Couslands? Not really...

[Asante81]

kormesios wrote...

Indeed.  Loghain was clearly in communication not only with Howe, but also with the libertarians in the Circle of Mages before the battle at Ostagar.  He was clearly planning to betray Cailan, regardless of the facts on the ground at Ostagar.

I don't think this indicates at him trying to get rid of Cailan. It only shows that he was trying to get a directer influence on the circle. Most likely he didn't like Irving's point of views. He needed a mage he could trust. One who wouldn't call the Orlesian circle for help.
What I would find more interesting is: did Loghain know about Uldred being an abomination and his plans?