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[Lotion Soronarr]

bas273 wrote...

Why would Loghain want the throne? He tells Cailan not to fight in the frontlines and his daughter Anora is already Queen. I think he simply wants the best for Ferelden.
Interesting theory. But I don't think Loghain had planned his betrayal. He has been arguing with King Cailan for days. He doesn't want King Cailan to die.
And if he wanted Fergus dead, he would never allow him to be sent on a scouting mission. Fergus could easily escape and travel to Redcliffe for aid.

1. Loghain knows Cailan well enough that telling him "don't fight in the front lines" will have the opposite effect. Not the first or last time you tell someone the opposite of what you really mean or want.

2. Loghain and Cailan have been arguing a lot, and it had to do with Anora and the grey Wardens. Loghian probably realised Cailan isn't as mellable as he hoped. Maybe Cailan wanted to take a far more active role in politics, and thus diminish Anoras influence too.

3. Fergus alone, without the suport of the king, can do little to nothing. Not to mention he went missing.

[jon 45]

knarayan wrote...
Which means that Eamon would have been poisoned just before Ostagar - maybe immediately after sending his message re troops to Cailan.

It is even made explicit in dialogue that Eamon's illness began before Ostagar.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

All of the Origin happenings happened before Ostegar - so Highever destroyed, Jowan escaped and got recruited to poison Eamon, the beginnings of the trouble in the alienage were all done or were well in the midst of occurring whilst we are running around collecting vials of blood.

Why do any of that if you don't want the king dead?

If you can't think of any other reasons (power grab, paranoid delusions, feeling that Cailan was mere shadow of Maric) how about he is Anora's father and Cailan was screwing around alot on her -alot -maybe with an *gasp* Orlesian *gasp* even.

He didn't want Cailan dead, he wanted Cailan away from the frontline, it wasn't his fault Cailan was a fool and he was in no position to force Cailan to change his mind.

Also he did know it was lit late, whilst they have no clocks, they would know how long it would usually take to get up there once battle commence and even if he didn't have an absolute brilliant view of the battle, he has ears which means he can hear it a: starting and b: if it is really kicking off.

He considered Eamon and the others to be conspiring with the Orlesians, as previously stated he has a seriously bad case of distrust for the Wardens due to previous events back when Maric was still alive. Cailan is too stupid to have been fooling around behind Anora's back.

The alienage issue as he states when trying to defend his reasoning for selling the elves was because it is obvious as far as funding a potential war with the Orlesians AND if the rumours were true about the Blight, were not enough and so he had to use everything at his disposal to fund it.

Going on the principal of the Human Noble being in the story, I actually believe that had Cailan survived Ostagar, Howe would have ended up dead and most likely Loghain would have seen to it personally to tie up loose ends and make sure he didn't tell anyone about his hand in any of what had transpired.

Yes, he did bad things, but in his mind it was all for the good of the country that he loves and would die for. He didn't spend the majority of his life fighting the Orlesians and kicking them out and then stopping them from coming back in to let Maric's fool of a son let them walk back in without a fight.

The events in the origins had nothing to do with Cailan, but everything to do with Loghain's obsession with the Orlesians looking to conquer Ferelden again. He has seen first hand the destructive and deceitful ways in which the Orlesians in the past have tried to defeat them, this has made him very paranoid. That coupled with the power mad ambition of Howe and you get one really bad cocktail that ironically would cause the downfall of Ferelden.

[SeanMurphy2]

I don't think Loghain planned everything out just to kill Cailan. He can't predict how many numbers the darkspawn will have or how they will behave. He can't predict several weeks beforehand that Cailan would die in the battle of Ostager.



If he carried out all the evil schemes before he even got to Ostager. He is not going to know that there is even going to be a major battle against the darkspawn. And it seems a big risk to involve so many people in a premeditated plot to kill the King when there is no guarantee that it will even happen. Or that he will change his mind.

[RSTORM50]

bas273 wrote...


a) Loghain doesn't know the Tower of Ishal is overrun by Darkspawn.
Alistair and the Grey Warden have missed the signal so the perfect time for Loghain's men to strike has already passed. King Cailan and Duncan are still alive though.
c) Loghain hasn't seen the signal to alert the Tower of Ishal. This signal was sent by the King's forces because they would draw the Darkspawn into their lines and then signal the ToI. Conclusion: Loghain doesn't know that the Grey Wardens have missed the signal. As far as he can tell, the Grey Wardens have succeeded in their mission and lighted the beacon just in time. Now's the time to flank the Darkspawn.

He may not KNOW, but when that amount of time passed with no beacon lit (The amount of time it took to fight your way through the tower, while the battle goes on at the front.), Loghain would have to have at least suspected something has gone wrong. All they needed to do was go up to the tower and light the beacon. His distrust of the Wardens is only further validated in his mind when it does take so long to light the beacon.

The conclusion that you still commit your forces to this flanking action is not a strategically sound thing to do from the military standpoint.  Too much time would have passed for the original plan to be carried out. Strategically speaking there should have been a plan B seeing that plans generally do not survive the enemy, but that's neither here nor there.

Now i'm not saying Loghain isn't an evil bastid, but when he said Cailin's death was his own doing he wasn't lying. He shouldn't have been on the front line going for his glory in the first place, and he should have listened to the military commander's advice which was do not fight this battle. Cailin scoffed at the idea of Eamon's forces because he supposed Eamon only wanted in on the glory.

Cailin's death at Ostagar probably saved lives as he would not have stopped after that battle, keeping on in the name of "glory." 

[Realmzmaster]

It is clearly stated that the person lighting the beacon has a clear view of the entire battlefield. Loghain did not have a view of the battlefield. Even if he could see part of the battlefield and the part of the battle he saw was going badly, other sections of the battle could be going well. His duty was to attack. If he thought the beacon lighting was taking to long he could send out a scouting party to do quick recon. He simply quit the field

Loghain with Howe's help put many plans into motion. He thought Cailin to be an idiot, who played at war. With Cailin dead, Anora becomes Queen. Anora knows nothing about war. She is a good peace time ruler. She naturally appoints the one person who is good at it and still at that moment trusts.

Arl Eamon is poisoned to prevent his interfernce in anything. He could not be at the battle to help Cailin and there would be no one who could called the Landsmeet. Other Arls could try, but Loghain had them under control. Howe has Loghain's protection. Loghain uses Howe (willingly) to try to tip any called Landsmeet in his favor. Otherwise why would Howe bother to lockup certain noble's sons, and kidnap another noble's son. Loghain also uses slavery to fund his army

[kormesios]

It is obvious that the darkspawn flank was completely exposed, and their supporting emissaries vulnerable.  If Loghain had charged when the signal was lit the arcane casters would have been killed, the darkspawn army would have crumbled and the bulk of it would have been entrapped and slaughtered.

Oh, what's that?  There's no evidence of that at all in the cut scenes or dialogue, just in my imagination?

Fair enough.  But it's just as plausible as the Loghain supporters arguing about the army being  outnumbered, the timing being bad, and so on.  Absolute numbers, disposition on the field, casualties and timing are not explicitly communicated at any point in the game.  It's the best justification for Loghain, and it is based on completely made up 'facts'.

bas273 wrote...
Why would Loghain want the throne? He tells Cailan not to fight in the frontlines and his daughter Anora is already Queen.
I think he simply wants the best for Ferelden.

Perhaps, but in his unhinged mind, Loghain in absolute control is what's best for Ferelden.  People talk about Alistair's Landsmeet 'fit', but Loghain's fit if he loses the landsmeet ("You're all traitors!  Only I and King Maric were genuine patriots!") is one of a hundred examples that make his attitude obvious.  He'll enslave elves, torture templars, and kill bannorn, arls, teyrns and kings to gain enough power to 'save' Ferelden.  His insane megalomania is really made crystal clear.  None of this is consistent with the generous interpretation of his actions at Ostagar, which are utterly unsupported by evidence anyway.

bas273 wrote...
Secondly, Redcliffe/The Circle/etc. all took
place after the battle.

As I (and others) have pointed out, you are just plain wrong on the timing.  This is not a matter of interpretation; check the Niall dialogue next time you're in the fade.  The plot is unfolding in the Circle at the same time mages are returning from the battle.  The death of the king was a signal to unfurl the plot; there's no way he had time to negotiate a conspiracy from his army at Ostagar faster than the length of a one-way trip from Ostagar to the Circle.

Same with Arl Eamon, where the timing is also explicit.  And with the presumptive conspiracy with Howe at Highever.

If Loghain truly wanted to get rid of Cailan he
wouldn't be discussing this battle for days with him. As King Cailan
tells you several times: Loghain has been trying for days to convince
him to change battle plans. Loghain doesn't want the King to die,
that's for sure.

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

He didn't want Cailan
dead, he wanted Cailan away from the frontline, it wasn't his fault
Cailan was a fool and he was in no position to force Cailan to change
his mind.

SeanMurphy2 wrote...
I don't think Loghain planned everything
out just to kill Cailan. He can't predict how many numbers the
darkspawn will have or how they will behave. He can't predict several
weeks beforehand that Cailan would die in the battle of Ostager.

He absolutely does want the king to die.  But the reason he's decided to kill Cailan is precisely because Cailan
does *not* listen to the all-knowing Loghain.  The argument is not
going to change Cailan's mind, which he knows because he's been through
other arguments for months or years.

It's fairly predictable the foolhardy Cailan would fight in the front lines.  If he didn't Loghain would get him killed some other time.  They are on campaign together; the exact moment of betrayal wouldn't need to be worked well in advance.  Multiple opportunities would present themselves; the man personally instructed Jowan to poison Eamon, there's no reason to think he wouldn't arrange an 'accident' in a minor skirmish if need be.

As it turns out, he had an opportunity to propose the Grey Wardens act as glorious 'bait', which made it utterly predictable glory- and Warden-obsessed Cailan would stand with them.  But if it hadn't been then, it would have been later.

bas273 wrote...
A simple lie would suffice. They could tell Cailan that Highever was attacked by Darkspawn.

Giant frog darkspawn that leaped over the armies, slaughtered the family, and leaped back, leaving no witnesses?

Almost any lie would be transparent.  As I've argued before, you need the ruler's support to take posession of the Teyrnir, then a lie gives you a thin veneer of legitimacy.  But the lie itself is not enough.

Modifié par kormesios, 28 décembre 2009 - 07:52 .

[bas273]

^ Agreed

I don't think Loghain had planned his retreat until your meeting with him and King Cailan. In that cutscene you can see that Loghain's face was troubles as he says "Yes, glorius indeed." Perhaps at that time he decided that betrayal was the only way to save Ferelden.

Modifié par bas273, 28 décembre 2009 - 07:54 .

[kormesios]

bas273 wrote...

^ Agreed

I don't think Loghain had planned his retreat until your meeting with him and King Cailan. In that cutscene you can see that Loghain's face was troubles as he says "Yes, glorius indeed." Perhaps at that time he decided that betrayal was the only way to save Ferelden.

My point was the opposite, actually.  I think it's clear from a ton of other evidence that the betrayal was planned before the king started campaigning.

I just think the exact moment and execution of the betrayal was undecided until the meeting.  Loghain wasn't in a hurry, exactly; he just needed to keep goading Cailan and hope the king got himself killed.  At the meeting, it became obvious that Ostagar was the perfect opportunity.

[bas273]

kormesios wrote...

bas273 wrote...

^ Agreed

I don't think Loghain had planned his retreat until your meeting with him and King Cailan. In that cutscene you can see that Loghain's face was troubles as he says "Yes, glorius indeed." Perhaps at that time he decided that betrayal was the only way to save Ferelden.

My point was the opposite, actually.  I think it's clear from a ton of other evidence that the betrayal was planned before the king started campaigning.

I just think the exact moment and execution of the betrayal was undecided until the meeting.  Loghain wasn't in a hurry, exactly; he just needed to keep goading Cailan and hope the king got himself killed.  At the meeting, it became obvious that Ostagar was the perfect opportunity.

Yes but that's what I was trying to say. Your post is a good summary.
He had already planned his betrayal but it was just after that meeting that he decided to retreat.

Modifié par bas273, 28 décembre 2009 - 08:26 .

[kormesios]

bas273 wrote...
Yes but that's what I was trying to say. Your post is a good summary.
He had already planned his betrayal but it was just after that meeting that he decided to retreat.

Ah, thanks.  I think I misunderstood some of your earlier posts, then.   Tough to keep all the threads straight sometimes.

[bas273]

kormesios wrote...

bas273 wrote...
Yes but that's what I was trying to say. Your post is a good summary.
He had already planned his betrayal but it was just after that meeting that he decided to retreat.

Ah, thanks.  I think I misunderstood some of your earlier posts, then.   Tough to keep all the threads straight sometimes.

Forgive me but I have to ask

What did you do when you faced Loghain at last? Let your main character kill him? Let Alistair kill him? Showed him mercy? And who duelled him?

[kormesios]

bas273 wrote...
Forgive me but I have to ask

What did you do when you faced Loghain at last? Let your main character kill him? Let Alistair kill him? Showed him mercy? And who duelled him?

Funny question, because I went back and forth quite a bit on my first playthrough, when I had no clue what would happen or what was coming.

Background:  I was playing a good-deed doing city elf rogue.  He really hated Howe and Loghain both, for the stuff in the Alienage plus the Ostagar treachery.  (The king was sincerely surprised to hear how bad the alienages were, and there was hope for my PC that things might actually get better.)  I ignored Anora, lost the Landsmeet, won the big battle, then dueled Loghain myself.

I accepted his surrender, 'cause that's my first instinct when an opponent puts down his weapon.  After listening to Alistair recount the crimes, though, I agreed this wasn't some common bandit or cutpurse who could be enlisted--he was just too evil and untrustworthy (slaver, torturer, regicide, traitor).  So I said execution, then got weepy and bailed when he had his little good-bye speech to Anora ("I can't do this . . . " was my dialog choice).  At that point I would have accepted him in my party, but Alistair stepped up and lopped off his head.  My weepiness departed, and I wasn't tempted to re-load or anything.  An ugly affair, but it seemed just.

I've played twice more, and executed him one way or another twice more.  Once for pure RPG reasons again, and once for meta-game reasons (I wanted to see Anora & Alistair married).

[Asante81]

There's one more thing you all seem to forget: Loghain's past. Just read the novels and recruit the man and talk to him. I don't like him. He's a paranoid bastard with a terrible sense of judgement who is completely ruthless, but he adored Maric and his son Cailan way too much to plan Cailan's death like that. He might be an arse, but he's always been loyal to the Theirins. Up to the point where he thinks they're conspiring with Orlais. Which is, if you think about his past, understandable, even if his fanatism is "a bit" over the top.

And: HE DID TRY TO CONVINCE CAILAN FOR DAYS NOT TO FIGHT ALONGSIDE THE GREY WARDENS!

Did he plan to get rid of the Wardens he never trusted and thought of being lickspittles of the Orlesians? Yes, he did. But he tried to do everything to keep his king out of there. And this seemed to have been the only situation where Cailan was stubborn enough not to listen to daddy-in-law and Hero of River Dane Loghain.

And I still think that all his actions were NOT to kill Cailan, but to DEFEND FERELDEN FROM THE ORLESIANS.

[JaegerBane]

Asante81 wrote...
And I still think that all his actions were NOT to kill Cailan, but to DEFEND FERELDEN FROM THE ORLESIANS.

There's been plenty of complete idiots throughout history who have always justified what they were doing with noble goals and all the rest of it, but in the end, if his reason is not actually in the bounds of reality, it's meaningless.

So he did everything he did to defend Ferelden from Orlesians. The problem is that Ferelden was not under attack by Orlesians. It may be threatned in the future, but not yet. It *is* threatened by a massive horde of man-eating monsters, however, and his duty as a soldier of Ferelden was to defend his country against those who were attacking it, not whichever enemy he still had an axe to grind with.

I don't have a shred of sympathy for Loghain. Anora too, Cauthrien, Howe, all the rest of that pack of idiots. I don't care what their excuses were, in the end they weakened Ferelden at the very time it needed to be strong.

[Asante81]

You forget his PARANOIA. During the Orlesian occupation little Loghain was forced by them to watch them rape and slaughter his mother...

HE'S PARANOID.

[PatT2]

Loghain could not get his head around a new threat. The threat had changed, but Loghain had not. It's like people today running around now claiming that the world is in danger from Red Communism (which it isn't now, and I'm not certain it ever really was...or if that wasn't an excuse to implement otherwise unpopular things (like so many things before and since).



Loghain is paranoid. He can't move on. When the darkspawn (including an archdemon) are devouring the country, he stands at the Landsmeet and asks how you would counter the Orlesian threat! Um....dude...you (Loghain) need to get out more.



He also feels that the orlesians will use the grey wardens as a cover to invade. Except that, at this point, he's nearly allowed the country to be overrun by mindless darkspawn, and appears oblivious to history of the blights and darkspawn. He needs to get out of his shiny armor and check in with reality.



And so far, I've killed him myself (my pc) 5 times, and let Alistair do it once. I think recruiting him is going to be one achievement I will never get. I was military once... and you know...when a general QUITS THE FIELD and leaves the troops including the king (regardless of the king's impetuosity) to die instead of following through iwth an attack... the guy is a traitor. Period.



Also...why is it you aren't allowed into go into the tower earlier? Loghain has it locked up until the battle. The guard knew they had found lower chambers....



--Was it a calculated move of his to try to keep the beacon from ever being lit? (An excuse for not attacking?) His disappointment must have been great when he realized that two grey wardens would discover his plan.

--Uldred comes up and tries to tell the King, in that same meeting where you learn that you will be lighting the beacon...Uldred tries to tell the King that he doesn't need the tower...(and the reverend mother shut him down before he could finish) but you know he was going to offer to just use magic to create a large fire signal (replacing the tower).



--Later, while in the circle tower, you learn that Uldred had been making plans with Loghain to free the circle from the chantry, before Ostagar. He made a beeline back to the tower after Ostagar to take control of the circle, to start making abominations (and building an army for Loghain).



--Loghain totally misread the threat of the darkspawn. Thinking he could control the damage they did and use it as a catalyst to take over, including controlling the beacon (using uldred, and allowing his men to be killed in the tower). When that failed, that's when he ordered the retreat and made up a new story, blaming it on the Grey Wardens (who he knew had survived the tower long enough to light the beacon...which he had tried veyr hard to prevent).



+There are just SO MANY clues in this story that indicate that this plot started long before Ostagar. (Including those previously mentioned about poisoning Arl Eamon). And he had the temerity to order a Templar locked up by Howe (the one who was hunting Jowan). The nobility does not have authority over the Templars.



The man truly had no desire to do anything to unite Ferelden unless it was under his own banner. He was only interested in power, and was willing to sacrifice Templars, mages, his own soldiers in the tower, elves in the alienage, and the Grey Wardens, not to mention all those civilians from Lothering north... just to pull a power grab. He even had his own daughter locked up, and if you talk to her, it's quite clear she trusts neither Howe's men OR her father.

[JaegerBane]

Asante81 wrote...

You forget his PARANOIA. During the Orlesian occupation little Loghain was forced by them to watch them rape and slaughter his mother...
HE'S PARANOID.

Without wanting to sound cold, he needs to cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it. His job is military commander of the forces of Ferelden, a country he claims to protect. He doesn't have the luxury of whining about Paranoia or mental scars or whatever. If it's such an issue he should have done thr right thing and stepped down. Loghain could really do with speaking with Sten about the caveats of duty. He either does his job or gets out of the way so someone else can do it, it's too important a role for it to be messed about with.

Paranoia is a factor, but is no excuse.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 29 décembre 2009 - 12:53 .

[Asante81]

All I wanted to say is that he's so delusional that he cannot see beyond his imagination that Orlesians are hiding behind every tree and corner... He still is an arse and shouldn't have done what he did, but then it wouldn't be the game it is.

[kormesios]

Asante81 wrote...
And: HE DID TRY TO CONVINCE CAILAN FOR DAYS NOT TO FIGHT ALONGSIDE THE GREY WARDENS!
Did he plan to get rid of the Wardens he never trusted and thought of being lickspittles of the Orlesians? Yes, he did. But he tried to do everything to keep his king out of there.

You have heard of reverse psychology, haven't you?  Or at least encountered examples of it in books?  

That points simple enough, but to really beat a dead horse here, it is quite possible to encourage someone to do something by urging them to do the opposite.  In the case of Cailan, talking about the danger and then saying "please don't do this!" would be the equivalent of saying "Unless you're a coward, darn right you should be down there!"

If you really wanted to convince Cailan not to fight, the argument would be that his place is "Leading the glorious charge from the flanks that will crush the darkspawn threat!"

Not my main point, but your scenario doesn't make much sense regardless.  If he's planning to destroy the Grey Wardens at Ostagar, he absolutely needs Cailan with them.  Or do you think Cailan would have coutenanced the betrayal if he'd been with the reserves?

[Farrrongoth]

The darkspawn army u face at the end has been building since the beginning so it saffe to assume the final darkspawn army was larger than the origin the archdeamon was not there to best of our knowledge.
Loghain simple did not follow the plan through because of the Orlesians, he did not want them to be able to gain a foothold in Feraldan, even if Loghain had flanked, Cailan was on the otherside of the battlefield and was killed by an ogre, so it likely Cailan would have died anyway although the battle could have still been won. If Loghain had stuck with the battle he could have gained regency without civil war brewing as there would be no question as to his place in the battle (he'd need a sixth sense to know that tho). However saying that Cailan may well have failed against the ogre because he distracted by the fact the beacon was lit but Loghain was not advancing. I personally believe it would have been won had Loghain gone through with the plan the darkspawn were flanked in a valley that is a an extreme strategical and tactical advantage for the humans, I also believe the archdeamon was not present but obviously Loghain could not have known either way without some sort of future sight, I believe Cailan would have died either way given my previous point about and that he is not used to war and his head was in the clouds so to speak.

Modifié par Farrrongoth, 29 décembre 2009 - 03:22 .

[JaylaClark]

I'm just going to say this -- Loghain seems to have caught a scorching case of DracoInLeatherPants here with some people.

I think BioWare's intention was to create an antagonist who could be considered to be justified in his evil ways.  (I personally do not share in this view, but I respect those who do.  As do I respect those who sympathise with Tony in the most recent season of 24, because the best heel is one who starts out being demonstrably right, or at least believably convinced that he or she IS right -- and sometimes, those heels have you questioning if they really might BE right.)  Instead, there are a lot of people making excuses for said evil acts.

Loghain poisoned Arl Eamon before Ostagar --  indisputable fact (based on, if you head straight to Redcliffe, he's already poisoned beyond recovery.  You can argue that he doesn't get any worse off if you visit Redcliffe last, and even mention Liara in Mass Effect as an example, and if you do I may love you for quoting my favorite game, but I think you'd be missing the point.)

The Couslands were all murdered, potentially save two -- indisputable fact, and again, Arl Howe took a HUGE risk that Cailan would accept his story at face value, whatever it may be.  Unless he had a guarantee from someone else, which I'll admit is only a theory, but I think it's supported in the face of other facts.

The mage Jowan was sent with orders to poison Arl Eamon well before Ostagar -- fact, possibly disputable as to timing, except taken with the first fact based on the result.

Analysis:  Loghain wanted Cailan dead.  Motive:  The throne.  Underlying motives?  ARE up to debate.  You want to say he wanted Cailan still alive, and I'll stop listening, because the evidence is so clear to me that I can't even fit that possibility in my head.  You want to talk about his motivations for wanting him dead being noble or ignoble, go right ahead.

To FINALLY try to get this thread back on track, anyone else have an opinion on how things would be different in the game had Loghain charged rather than retreated?  I personally think that that would change two origin stories at least a bit and Arl Howe wouldn't be a living antagonist for very long, but other than that, it's murky at best to me.

[wwwwowwww]

aryon69 wrote...

"Cailan was dead set on one huge battle 'like in the tales'. Loghain saw his King pushing him into a battle he thought was unwinable. We can agree on this, yes? "

I don't agree with this. Loghain had a problem with the king even thinking of calling for outside help and considering who Cailan wanted to call it isn't hard to see why Loghain did what he did, least for me. Another thing that Cailan did that didn't please Loghain was putting such high stock on the grey wardens. When Cailan decided it would be the wardens who lit the beacon that seem to be the point Loghain decided to betry his king.

As King, Cailans word is law and Loghain (regardless of his personal feelings) should have followed the orders unwaivingly.

Just my thoughts on that

[Slayer299]

There is one other thing to consider in regards to Loghain's plans on this attack (and his subsequent abandonment of the field) and that is that Loghain never planned to follow through on his part of the battle.

When you visit the Tower after you arrive and you speak with the guard there. He tells you than Teyrn Loghain has sealed off the Tower because they 'found' lower chambers and are investigating them. When you question the guard further he states he never knew of any lower chambers in all the time he was there, which makes Loghain's occupation of the Tower and the subsequent tunneling in by the Darkspawn damned convenient. I don't know if you can really point to Loghain working with the Darkspawn, (like anyone could?) But leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for them to find isn't beyond the realm of possibilities either.