55 réponses à ce sujet

[JimTasty]

 If he knew what reason Duncan became one! Sorry i know this is the wrong forum but I've been reading the Calling and i couldn't help! Just thought it was interesting.

[Emzamination]

JimTasty wrote...

 If he knew what reason Duncan became one! Sorry i know this is the wrong forum but I've been reading the Calling and i couldn't help! Just thought it was interesting.

and yet you perpetrated the crime anyway.I suggest learning some self-restraint lad.There is a story sub-forum for this type of talk.

[JimTasty]

you're being that guy.

[Emzamination]

JimTasty wrote...

you're being that guy.

Girl actually and yes, yes I am.

[JimTasty]

no one likes that girl

Modifié par JimTasty, 26 septembre 2012 - 01:58 .

[Emzamination]

JimTasty wrote...

no one likes that girl

Mods adore that girl when she helps add to their daily lock-down quota.Which come to think of it...

[nightscrawl]

JimTasty wrote...

 If he knew what reason Duncan became one! Sorry i know this is the wrong forum but I've been reading the Calling and i couldn't help! Just thought it was interesting.

He would still object. If you care about someone, you would reason away some of their faults. Alistair wants vengeance, enough to put it over the potential safety of Ferelden by refusing the potential boon of an additional Grey Warden.

In that crucial moment in the Landsmeet he wants ONE thing, Loghain's death. Trying to convince him otherwise with either pleas of logic or examples of perhaps how Duncan is not worth the effort (this completely ignores his actions against the king and rest of the army) will fall on deaf ears.

[JimTasty]

nightscrawl wrote...

JimTasty wrote...

 If he knew what reason Duncan became one! Sorry i know this is the wrong forum but I've been reading the Calling and i couldn't help! Just thought it was interesting.

He would still object. If you care about someone, you would reason away some of their faults. Alistair wants vengeance, enough to put it over the potential safety of Ferelden by refusing the potential boon of an additional Grey Warden.

In that crucial moment in the Landsmeet he wants ONE thing, Loghain's death. Trying to convince him otherwise with either pleas of logic or examples of perhaps how Duncan is not worth the effort (this completely ignores his actions against the king and rest of the army) will fall on deaf ears.

yeah so true. I wonder what Alistair think if he knew Duncan becoming a Grey Warden was a punishment for what he had done. I think its amazing that some people still think about that decision 3 years after the games release

[mousestalker]

I doubt it would have mattered to him. He knew Duncan as he became, not Duncan as he was, and he was there with the other Grey Wardens. They probably weren't saints either.

[lambent templar]

would you as a human noble allow Howe to live? (not sure if its an option, i just get straight to the killing anyways) that is exactly how Alistair feels, the man that betrayed and through inaction caused the death of his most recent (hes had a few) father figure.
If only it were possible for Morrigan to pass on some of her "parents are expendable" philosophies to Alistair so that they could become co-wardens and exchange conversation at camp.
I quite like the thought of Loghain having to obey Alistairs every whim as senior warden

[ShimmeringDjinn]

lambent templar wrote...

would you as a human noble allow Howe to live? (not sure if its an option, i just get straight to the killing anyways) that is exactly how Alistair feels, the man that betrayed and through inaction caused the death of his most recent (hes had a few) father figure.

Has he? As far as I'm aware, the only father figure Alistair had -apart from Duncan- is Arl Eamon.

[lambent templar]

I would most definetly be peeved, vengeance is vengeance and alistair deserves it as Duncans protoge.
I could only speculate that Alistair probably found a father figure at the chantry too, It seems a part of his psychological make up (granted he is a character in a game) that he looks for someone to lead him wether it be Duncan, Eamon or even my pc.
3 seperate father figures does seem overly excessive to me

[Monica21]

lambent templar wrote...

would you as a human noble allow Howe to live? (not sure if its an option, i just get straight to the killing anyways) that is exactly how Alistair feels, the man that betrayed and through inaction caused the death of his most recent (hes had a few) father figure.
If only it were possible for Morrigan to pass on some of her "parents are expendable" philosophies to Alistair so that they could become co-wardens and exchange conversation at camp.
I quite like the thought of Loghain having to obey Alistairs every whim as senior warden

This question has been brought up before and actually, yeah, I would, and I almost always play as a human noble. The option of an additional Warden at that point in the game is far too important. If the archdemon or some darkspawn don't kill Howe during the battle, then I can make arrangements for his painful death should he survive the battle.

But there's also a big difference between Howe and Loghain. Alistair believes Loghain is indirectly responsible for the life of a man he's known maybe six months. Howe is directly responsible for the murder of your parents, who you've known all your life. Apples and oranges.

Modifié par Monica21, 29 septembre 2012 - 03:27 .

[lambent templar]

Why recruit Howe (who is hardly a skilled fighter) to fight the blight then kill him anyway? That isn't the way of the Grey Wardens and it would be seen as an insult to their memory. I couldn't imagine Alistair agreeing to Howe joining the Wardens nor anyone else. he would be a rubbish team member, he would not survive the joining and even if he did my Barkspawn would maul him at camp.

[Monica21]

Howe makes mention of fighting in the rebellion and puts up a decent fight when it is time to kill him, so he's certainly worth the cost of trying the Joining. There's no reason to assume he's not a skilled fighter.

As for why recruit him to kill him, why not? Cailan promised you justice. After the Archdemon is dead, I'm Warden-Commander so I can hand him over to Ferelden for justice or mete it out myself. Or I can arrange a painful accident.

Alistair has zero say in who becomes the next Warden. The Landsmeet proves that.

[Shadow Fox]

Monica21 wrote...

lambent templar wrote...

would you as a human noble allow Howe to live? (not sure if its an option, i just get straight to the killing anyways) that is exactly how Alistair feels, the man that betrayed and through inaction caused the death of his most recent (hes had a few) father figure.
If only it were possible for Morrigan to pass on some of her "parents are expendable" philosophies to Alistair so that they could become co-wardens and exchange conversation at camp.
I quite like the thought of Loghain having to obey Alistairs every whim as senior warden

This question has been brought up before and actually, yeah, I would, and I almost always play as a human noble. The option of an additional Warden at that point in the game is far too important. If the archdemon or some darkspawn don't kill Howe during the battle, then I can make arrangements for his painful death should he survive the battle.

But there's also a big difference between Howe and Loghain. Alistair believes Loghain is indirectly responsible for the life of a man he's known maybe six months. Howe is directly responsible for the murder of your parents, who you've known all your life. Apples and oranges.

Loghain was directly responsible because he left them to die not to mention all the other crimes you find out he was parlay to plus Alistair dissaproves of you recruieting Zevran because he just tried to kill you if Loghain can leave Cailan and his men to die whats to stop him from killing you?

Alistair saw Duncan as a father so it is a fair comparison.

[Shadow Fox]

Monica21 wrote...

Howe makes mention of fighting in the rebellion and puts up a decent fight when it is time to kill him, so he's certainly worth the cost of trying the Joining. There's no reason to assume he's not a skilled fighter.

As for why recruit him to kill him, why not? Cailan promised you justice. After the Archdemon is dead, I'm Warden-Commander so I can hand him over to Ferelden for justice or mete it out myself. Or I can arrange a painful accident.

Alistair has zero say in who becomes the next Warden. The Landsmeet proves that.

Cailan is dead his word is meaningless Howe even taunts you about how you can't do anything to punish him what's to stop Anora from pardoning him for helping save the Blight?By that logic neither do you Riordan just left it up to you to let him join as senior Warden he could have ordered you to recrueit  him or kill him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Loghain was directly responsible because he left them to die not to mention all the other crimes you find out he was parlay to plus Alistair dissaproves of you recruieting Zevran because he just tried to kill you if Loghain can leave Cailan and his men to die whats to stop him from killing you?

The question of what's to stop him from killing you is a fair one, and I consider Riordan's reaction to it to be kind of a non-answer. The rest of it is kind of unfair (apart from the slavery, which is difficult to defend), but that's been covered in enough threads already.

Alistair saw Duncan as a father so it is a fair comparison.

He's known Duncan for six months, I think? Not entirely fair since the HN has known his/her parents his/her whole life, and Oren for Oren's whole life.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 29 septembre 2012 - 11:28 .

[Fiacre]

Faerunner wrote...

lambent templar wrote...

would you as a human noble allow Howe to live? (not sure if its an option, i just get straight to the killing anyways) that is exactly how Alistair feels, the man that betrayed and through inaction caused the death of his most recent (hes had a few) father figure.

This is something that I've often thought of too. The majority of DA players are human nobles, yet many of those same nobles have accused Alistair of being whiney or unreasonable or what have you. Let's be fair. If you were about the deal the death blow to Arl Howe and then Alistair interfered at the last minute and let the killer of your family go unpunished, you'd be pissed off too. It's exactly how Alistair feels when you spare Loghain. 

I really don't like that comparison, because the situations are only very roughly comparable in the first place. On the one hand you have Howe, your father's supposed friend (best friend, even?) attacking in the middle of the night and betraying your family for noting but power which results in the death of most of your family and the people you know. On th other hand, you have Loghain retreating from a battle resulting in the death of Duncan and the Grey Wardens --
who Alistair has only known for a relatively short time -- Cailan -- who is, admittedly, Alistair's half brother -- and the rest of the army left behind.

Of course, in the end how valid Alistair's desire for revenge seems to your character/you mostly depends on what you think about that retreat. Since I think it's perfectly valid to see it as justified and agree with it (as most my characters do), that undermines Alistair's revenge, while a less favourable interpretation of Loghain's actions would make it more justified to your Warden/you.

In the end, Alistair never gets to have his revenge in my playthroughs, which most of my Wardens don't think he should have anyway, while my HNs get theirs -- but it's not like the game lets you decide. (Headcanon has it that my canon Warden eventually got drunk and profusely apologied to Nathaniel because damn it, Howe should have been put on trial, there's nothing right about stabbing him in his basement.)

And yes, if Howe hadn't happened and Bryce/Fergus/both had died because of Loghain's retreat then my HNs would have still fought on his side during the Civil War. And had Riordan tried to convince you to make Howe a GW, the more likely reason to reject it would have been that he's not trustworthy and might just stab in your sleep. And had Riordan actually managed to convinced them (entirely possible for most of them), then they simply would have had their revenge post Blight had Howe still been around then; or even sent him to Avernus for... research. (And no, I don't think they still would have had the moral high ground then. They often don't, because playing characters who are always right and goodand perfect is boring anyway.)


And while I don't like Alistair, I never thought he was whiny. I don't agree with his assessment of the situation, but I find his reaction to Redcliffe (particularly what you can point out with the Cunning choice) far more off putting than him being upset about Duncan's death.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fiacre wrote...

(Headcanon has it that my canon Warden eventually got drunk and profusely apologied to Nathaniel because damn it, Howe should have been put on trial, there's nothing right about stabbing him in his basement.)

Well, if Loghain had continued to fight until the Warden('s champion) got in a shot that hit a vital organ, that would have been okay. It's largely because Loghain surrenders that I don't think it's okay to kill him. Howe never surrenders. He fights to the death, and then he curses at you with his dying breath.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 septembre 2012 - 12:06 .

[Fiacre]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

(Headcanon has it that my canon Warden eventually got drunk and profusely apologied to Nathaniel because damn it, Howe should have been put on trial, there's nothing right about stabbing him in his basement.)

Well, if Loghain had continued to fight until the Warden('s champion) got in a shot that hit a vital organ, that would have been okay. It's largely because Loghain surrenders that I don't think it's okay to kill him. Howe never surrenders. He fights to the death, and then he curses at you with his dying breath.

Indeed. But Shea came to believe that he should have had Howe hanged after a proper trial later on, partly because of he was absolutely livid when he killed Howe (he got the "Your parents died on their knees , your brother's corpse rots at Ostagar" speech, got mad enough to threaten Howe's family and then totally lost it after Howe said that thing about Eleanor kissing his feet), partly beause of what Loghain says about it during the Landsmeet, and I guess also partly because of Nathaniel himself. I think the day he released Nate, there was much drinking. And the day Nate joined as well.

And yeah, Loghain surrendering is another reason for me not to kill him, though I didn't mention it above. It just feels... wrong. (I've even had characters who told Caladrius to **** off instead of killing him :|)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I've done both, though not always for moral reasons. If I remember correctly, he automatically scarpers if you let him kill the elves. (I've only done it once.)