55 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiacre]

Well, I usually beat him up until he gives up. When i want to kill him, I let him give me another offer and then kill him because no, suggesting that you'd sacrifice all those people will not convince me to let you go, and if I want to spare him, I just tell him to go away without asking for a new offer. That's pretty much what Shea did, though I usually just kill him.

...Somehow, I think the Dalish are more likely to profit from Shea being the prince-consort than the city elves are <.<

[Fiacre]

The game never gives me the choice to let Howe live. I'd certainly prefer having an option to put him ion trial instead stabbing him in his dungeion, but the game doesn't let me. The game does let me spare Loghain, and if appropriate for my characters -- which it usually is -- I do that.

And I'm sorry, but Loghain making a tactical retreat isn't equatable to Howe murdering his friend and his friend's family in the middle of the night for power. And come on, we all know that in the end, that was exactly Howe's motivation, while Loghain's... well, there are enough debates on that already and I stand quite firmly on the "the retreat was justified" side of it.

And if one does see Howe as justified after all? Well, as I said, I'd prefer having the option to let him live. And if one doesn't see Loghain as justified? Then Alistair's revenge, naturally, is perfectly valid and denying him it while getting your own is hypocritical. But as it is, I see no reason to assume that Howe's actions were justified, while I do believe that Loghain's retreat was. As such, I don't think Loghain should be killed for that. (Killing him is, however, a perfectly valid decision as well, he's done enough after all -- like the whole slavery mess -- but it's not the one I usually take for a variety of reasons.)

Also, unlike Alistair I think that becoming a GW as punishment can be, depending on who it's done to, a perfectly valid punishment. That I disagree with his opinion on things doesn't make me a hypocrite.

And sure, there might be subjective morality involved, but I don't think an opinion based on in game evidence is invalid because it ends up favouring the player character -- I can't say I saw a lot reason to spare Howe in game, but I did see reasons to spare Loghain. And I've certainly looked. In the end, we also have no evidence that Bryce was involved in Cailan's foolish ideas and even if he ws, it would have been on his King's orders. (though I do very much disagree with Cailan's plans and certainly hope Bryce wasn't fool enough to support that nonsense.)

The way Howe goes about the whole thing -- attacking in the middle of the night -- and doesn't seem to be the least bit broken up over it certainly suggests that it was for power. (So do the VO notes for his conversations in Highever and the conversation with the HN in the dungeon. In fact, the note for his line calling Bryce a traitor in the dungeon: 'Disgusted "You don't know how the world works. His hard work squeezed me out of my money and fame."' the line also says that Bryce was a traitor to him, and a coward to his nations with his trips to Orlais and gifts from old enemies. The one in Eamon's estate where he says that he revelaed the Cousland's to be traitors says: 'Bemused incredulous. "What, you again? I won that game. You are nothing."' ) And the fact that he slept next to the torture dungeon and the way his own daughter thinks about him also suggest that he was quite rotten.

Modifié par Fiacre, 30 septembre 2012 - 11:35 .

[Monica21]

I agree with almost your entire post, Fiacre, except the bit about it being hypocritical. When Riordan presents the option of making Loghain a Grey Warden, he's the senior and far more experienced Warden. For all your Warden may have done, you still know next to nothing about fighting an Archdemon or a Blight. You know Wardens are important but you don't really know why yet. Without metagaming, an experienced Warden suggesting you recruit someone else should cause you to pay attention. I don't remember Riordan's exact words, but it's more than just another punishment for Loghain, it's the clear insinuation that there's a reason to have a fourth Warden, and not just another civilian with a sword.

Alistair wants vengeance. Ferelden needs Wardens to kill the Archdemon and end the Blight. Which is more important?

[Fiacre]

Hmm, I actually forgot about that part while trying to explain that it depends entirely on how justified you see Loghain's and Howe's actions, but... true. And as I said, had Riordan done the same with Howe, I have had Wardens that would have tolerated his presence until the end of the Blight.

[Fiacre]

Faerunner wrote...

Yes, a trial where Howe would be executed, since the Bannorn wanted him dead just as much as Loghain, not the Grey Wardens were there would be a chance he could live. If Loghain had been put on trial (heck, he WAS put on trial, if practice if not in name at the Landsmeet), he was definitely a goner. You spare Loghain from execution the way you wouldn't spare Howe.

...I've already said that had Riordan asked to make Howe a Warden I would have seriously considered it. I might have rejected it on basis that I don't find Howe trustworthy enough, but I -- and some of my characters -- would seriously consider it and possibly agree after all. That's not what happens though and the game never gives you the choice to let Howe live or have a trial, even one similar to what Loghain gets. I don't see why I should let the fact that Howe won't yield and that there's no knock out option force my hand when it comes to Loghain, though.

A tactical retreat that also conveniently left a power vaccum open that Loghain also wasted no time in filling. Howe and Loghain both cause the deaths of a trusted ally and they both waste no time and taking their positions, lands and titles (well, "regent" instead of "king" for Loghain, but "regent" is basically a king in all but name) to impose their authority on people who don't want it. The said trusted allies they kill are the people most important to Cousland and Alistair, and part of the authority Howe and Loghain impose is the hunt and attempted murder of Cousland and Alistair.

Regardless of their intent, their actions are essentially the same: they make a conscious decision that they know causes the death of an ally who trusts them. The wounds they inflict on Cousland and Alistair are essentially the same: their actions kill the people both Grey Wardens love most in the world. Howe hurts Cousland, so players almost always want him dead. Loghain doesn't necessary hurt Cousland, so players are all right with sparing him even though it means denying their ally the same satisfaction they got to partake in earlier in the game. (It's like a starving man eating his fill and then preventing his also starving friend by saying "you're being gluttinous," right before he can take a bite).

You and I can speculate over how justified both Howe and Loghains's motivations are till our fingers fall off, but the end results of their actions are pretty darn similar. While the Cousland Warden is pretty well guaranteed to have their recompense from the start. (Come on, did anyone really think there was a chance Cousland wouldn't get vengence or justice? Considering how popular the Couslands are in the Bannorn, did anyone think they wouldn't be able to rally other nobles against Howe and get their **** back even if they didn't land the killing blow?) Yet Cousland can prevent their ally from having his. Nice.

And yet I believe that intent matters. Howe murdered people in the middle of the night for power, Loghain tried to do what was best for the kingdom and the men under his command -- or, at least, that's what I believe, so that's what I base my actions on. And the differing intent is what makes all the difference to me -- and as I also said before, if the situations were reversed and the wardens family had died at Ostagar, my opinion on the matter would be exactly the same and I still wouldn't want Loghain dead for it.

As such, I don't find your analogy very fitting -- the Warden can have actual moral reasons for sparing Loghain. From the situation you describe, the starving man doesn't.

And what the end result is or how things could have played out where the HN also gets his teyrnir back isn't the important part to me. Murder and retreat are two different things and I believe that the intent behind those two actions are just as different. As such, I will not deal with both situation in the same way, and I don't usually play Wardens that compromise their own morals for Alistair's sake by treating two situations the same that aren't the same. I have  before, it was interesting, but not something I'm interested in doing again. I've also played an Hn who was so screwed up in the head after Howe's attack that he didn't even really have a sense of right or wrong and spared Loghain simply because his fiancée aksed him to. And I've played characters with a very strong moral code that believed that killing Loghain was wrong because, well, my reasons given above -- retreat vs murder, the differing intent.

It sucks for Alistair, I guess, but I'll still not make a habit of having my characters moral code compomised for him. I wouldn't do it for any of the other companions, I won't do it for him.

[lambent templar]

With regarrds to Howe being a warden, Surely the wardens being as elite as they are they do not pick soldiers out of desperation? None of my companions (spare alistair) have undergone the joining and they are ten times more skilled than Howe.
Okay so theres only two wardens left in Ferelden, there are more elsewhere and if we are desperate enough to recruit then why are we not picking Teagan? Perth? Hell even Jowan if we are looking to resolve people of their crimes.
I personally do not think Howe is a strong fighter, my team beat him in no time at all. The greatest threat during the fight was the mage he had with him who i quickly disposed off.
If we are so desperate for grey wardens there are much better candidates in ferelden, most of whom would beat Howe on their own.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Surely the wardens being as elite as they are they do not pick soldiers out of desperation?

Judging by the circumstances of Loghain's joining, I'd say that's up to the individual PC.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 octobre 2012 - 12:21 .

[Monica21]

Faerunner wrote...
Yes, a trial where Howe would be executed, since the Bannorn wanted him dead just as much as Loghain, not the Grey Wardens were there would be a chance he could live. If Loghain had been put on trial (heck, he WAS put on trial, if practice if not in name at the Landsmeet), he was definitely a goner. You spare Loghain from execution the way you wouldn't spare Howe.

Loghain certainly was on trial. Having lost said trial, he demanded trial by combat, which he then lost. And please, if you could stop conveniently forgetting that "wouldn't" and "couldn't" are two different things, that would be great. You're not given the option to spare Howe, simple as that.

You and I can speculate over how justified both Howe and Loghains's motivations are till our fingers fall off, but the end results of their actions are pretty darn similar. While the Cousland Warden is pretty well guaranteed to have their recompense from the start. (Come on, did anyone really think there was a chance Cousland wouldn't get vengence or justice? Considering how popular the Couslands are in the Bannorn, did anyone think they wouldn't be able to rally other nobles against Howe and get their **** back even if they didn't land the killing blow?) Yet Cousland can prevent their ally from having his. Nice.

Now you're metagaming again. Almost no one knows that you're alive. Certainly no one, not even you, know that Fergus is alive. For all intents and purposes the Couslands are gone. And their popularity doesn't matter. You're not Bryce, not to mention that you're a Warden so your position as a Ferelden noble is debateable. And I think you mean the writers let you prevent your ally from getting his perceived justice.

Modifié par Monica21, 01 octobre 2012 - 12:31 .

[Monica21]

lambent templar wrote...

With regarrds to Howe being a warden, Surely the wardens being as elite as they are they do not pick soldiers out of desperation? None of my companions (spare alistair) have undergone the joining and they are ten times more skilled than Howe.

They pick people out of desperation all the time. The City Elf is chosen because you'll die if Duncan doesn't pick you and he needs to fill ranks.

Okay so theres only two wardens left in Ferelden, there are more elsewhere and if we are desperate enough to recruit then why are we not picking Teagan? Perth? Hell even Jowan if we are looking to resolve people of their crimes.

Well, you don't know how to do the Joining ritual until the Landsmeet so, you really couldn't recruit someone even if you wanted to.

I personally do not think Howe is a strong fighter, my team beat him in no time at all. The greatest threat during the fight was the mage he had with him who i quickly disposed off.
If we are so desperate for grey wardens there are much better candidates in ferelden, most of whom would beat Howe on their own.

True, but you're still not given the option of recruiting anyone else, so it's a moot point.

[Jedimaster88]

Howe as a grey warden...

Sounds like a recipe for a disaster. There are so many ways Howe can make the warden´s life absolute hell.

He may try to attack the warden directly when he/she is not looking. Even worse, he could attack the warden´s friends and loved ones and then hide behind his new tittle. That would surely boost morale or do nice things for the warden´s sanity. The list goes on and on...

[lambent templar]

Its a shame that the recruit option is only limited to loghain, there are a lot of able warriors met on your travels.
Monica, hand on heart can you honestly say YOU would want howe in your team? The four pc's you take to slay the archdemon? Storyline aside its a game and he would not be a wise choice over a tank, healer and archer.
In terms of redemption there are more suitable candidates to force into servitude;jowan, loghain, jarvia, bhelen (if you side with harrowmount) hell even vaughns looking tempting to the body starved ranks of the wardens and ruck would make a nice kennel buddy for dog

[Monica21]

lambent templar wrote...

Its a shame that the recruit option is only limited to loghain, there are a lot of able warriors met on your travels.
Monica, hand on heart can you honestly say YOU would want howe in your team? The four pc's you take to slay the archdemon? Storyline aside its a game and he would not be a wise choice over a tank, healer and archer.
In terms of redemption there are more suitable candidates to force into servitude;jowan, loghain, jarvia, bhelen (if you side with harrowmount) hell even vaughns looking tempting to the body starved ranks of the wardens and ruck would make a nice kennel buddy for dog

Well, no I don't want him, but that wasn't the question. There are other NPCs who are far more capable and trustworthy. But, if I were given the option to recruit him I would.

[maxernst]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Howe as a grey warden...

Sounds like a recipe for a disaster. There are so many ways Howe can make the warden´s life absolute hell.

He may try to attack the warden directly when he/she is not looking. Even worse, he could attack the warden´s friends and loved ones and then hide behind his new tittle. That would surely boost morale or do nice things for the warden´s sanity. The list goes on and on...

Actually, I see Howe as far less likely to attack the Warden than Loghain.  Howe will do anything to save his miserable skin and he has nothing to gain by killing the Warden and/or his friends would seal his fate.  Even if he manages to get away, he'd be a fugitive.  His only hope of improving his circumstances is to play along.  Past transgressions of the Wardens are forgiven.  That doesn't mean that Wardens are above the law.

Loghain, on the other hand, might try to kill the Warden and Alistair to 'save' Ferelden from Orlais, and the fact that he'll get himself killed wouldn't bother him nearly as much as Howe.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Howe kills because he is a greedy bastard. However, the ease with which he does so suggests that there is something wrong in his head, too. I don't see how he's any more trustworthy than Loghain, especially if the char is an elf. He comes right out and says that he considers elves to be animals, to that elf's face.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:04 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

lambent templar wrote...

Its a shame that the recruit option is only limited to loghain, there are a lot of able warriors met on your travels.
Monica, hand on heart can you honestly say YOU would want howe in your team? The four pc's you take to slay the archdemon? Storyline aside its a game and he would not be a wise choice over a tank, healer and archer.
In terms of redemption there are more suitable candidates to force into servitude;jowan, loghain, jarvia, bhelen (if you side with harrowmount) hell even vaughns looking tempting to the body starved ranks of the wardens and ruck would make a nice kennel buddy for dog

Jowan not being in the party makes it poorer, too bad they had to cut him for time. Loghain is an option, and probably a safer one than Howe would be even without metagaming. Jarvia is convinced you are there to take her head regardless of how you play your Warden, so that's why she's a non-option. Bhelen would not care even if you did give him the choice, since he views you as an enemy and the throne you're giving Harrowmont as his.

Now, all of those are better choices than Howe (except Bhelen, and for largely the same reasons), too bad most of them are non-options. (As previously mentioned, Loghain is the exception.) Howe is in turn a better choice than Vaughn because he's more powerful in-game, and has actual combat experience story-line-wise. Not to mention that he shows some courage in attacking the Warden, who he knows full well has taken on an assassin he personally describes as "the very best." I don't recall Vaughn ever showing any courage. As for Ruck, I doubt he has much in the way of skills apart from smithing, which is helpful but not really conducive to shoving him at the spawn. I also don't know that he can really be saved at this point, or that he'd survive the Joining either way.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 octobre 2012 - 02:26 .

[Shadow Fox]

Fiacre wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Yes, a trial where Howe would be executed, since the Bannorn wanted him dead just as much as Loghain, not the Grey Wardens were there would be a chance he could live. If Loghain had been put on trial (heck, he WAS put on trial, if practice if not in name at the Landsmeet), he was definitely a goner. You spare Loghain from execution the way you wouldn't spare Howe.

...I've already said that had Riordan asked to make Howe a Warden I would have seriously considered it. I might have rejected it on basis that I don't find Howe trustworthy enough, but I -- and some of my characters -- would seriously consider it and possibly agree after all. That's not what happens though and the game never gives you the choice to let Howe live or have a trial, even one similar to what Loghain gets. I don't see why I should let the fact that Howe won't yield and that there's no knock out option force my hand when it comes to Loghain, though.

A tactical retreat that also conveniently left a power vaccum open that Loghain also wasted no time in filling. Howe and Loghain both cause the deaths of a trusted ally and they both waste no time and taking their positions, lands and titles (well, "regent" instead of "king" for Loghain, but "regent" is basically a king in all but name) to impose their authority on people who don't want it. The said trusted allies they kill are the people most important to Cousland and Alistair, and part of the authority Howe and Loghain impose is the hunt and attempted murder of Cousland and Alistair.

Regardless of their intent, their actions are essentially the same: they make a conscious decision that they know causes the death of an ally who trusts them. The wounds they inflict on Cousland and Alistair are essentially the same: their actions kill the people both Grey Wardens love most in the world. Howe hurts Cousland, so players almost always want him dead. Loghain doesn't necessary hurt Cousland, so players are all right with sparing him even though it means denying their ally the same satisfaction they got to partake in earlier in the game. (It's like a starving man eating his fill and then preventing his also starving friend by saying "you're being gluttinous," right before he can take a bite).

You and I can speculate over how justified both Howe and Loghains's motivations are till our fingers fall off, but the end results of their actions are pretty darn similar. While the Cousland Warden is pretty well guaranteed to have their recompense from the start. (Come on, did anyone really think there was a chance Cousland wouldn't get vengence or justice? Considering how popular the Couslands are in the Bannorn, did anyone think they wouldn't be able to rally other nobles against Howe and get their **** back even if they didn't land the killing blow?) Yet Cousland can prevent their ally from having his. Nice.

And yet I believe that intent matters. Howe murdered people in the middle of the night for power, Loghain tried to do what was best for the kingdom and the men under his command -- or, at least, that's what I believe, so that's what I base my actions on. And the differing intent is what makes all the difference to me -- and as I also said before, if the situations were reversed and the wardens family had died at Ostagar, my opinion on the matter would be exactly the same and I still wouldn't want Loghain dead for it.

As such, I don't find your analogy very fitting -- the Warden can have actual moral reasons for sparing Loghain. From the situation you describe, the starving man doesn't.

And what the end result is or how things could have played out where the HN also gets his teyrnir back isn't the important part to me. Murder and retreat are two different things and I believe that the intent behind those two actions are just as different. As such, I will not deal with both situation in the same way, and I don't usually play Wardens that compromise their own morals for Alistair's sake by treating two situations the same that aren't the same. I have  before, it was interesting, but not something I'm interested in doing again. I've also played an Hn who was so screwed up in the head after Howe's attack that he didn't even really have a sense of right or wrong and spared Loghain simply because his fiancée aksed him to. And I've played characters with a very strong moral code that believed that killing Loghain was wrong because, well, my reasons given above -- retreat vs murder, the differing intent.

It sucks for Alistair, I guess, but I'll still not make a habit of having my characters moral code compomised for him. I wouldn't do it for any of the other companions, I won't do it for him.

Funny my Wardens have strong moral codes and kill Loghain because of the crimes he commited after Ostagar that it makes Alistair happy is a nice bonus.

And metagaming Loghain is useless compared to Alistair in terms of stats simply because you pretty much build him it makes no sense to sacrifice my most powerful tank for a weaker character.

[Monica21]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Funny my Wardens have strong moral codes and kill Loghain because of the crimes he commited after Ostagar that it makes Alistair happy is a nice bonus.

And metagaming Loghain is useless compared to Alistair in terms of stats simply because you pretty much build him it makes no sense to sacrifice my most powerful tank for a weaker character.

Following that logic, this "strong moral code" includes the very real possibility of losing Ferelden because you didn't have a fourth Warden over personal vengeance.

[Shadow Fox]

Monica21 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Funny my Wardens have strong moral codes and kill Loghain because of the crimes he commited after Ostagar that it makes Alistair happy is a nice bonus.

And metagaming Loghain is useless compared to Alistair in terms of stats simply because you pretty much build him it makes no sense to sacrifice my most powerful tank for a weaker character.

Following that logic, this "strong moral code" includes the very real possibility of losing Ferelden because you didn't have a fourth Warden over personal vengeance.

Alistair leaves he makes it quite clear he won't work with Loghain before you recrueit him so  no you aren't gaining a fourth Warden just a replacement for Alistair.So I fail to see how making Loghain a Warden somehow makes a difference when you still have the same number you started with by that logic Anora killing Alistair might doom the country but Anora still exiles him because of fear of losing her power.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:11 .

[Monica21]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Funny my Wardens have strong moral codes and kill Loghain because of the crimes he commited after Ostagar that it makes Alistair happy is a nice bonus.

And metagaming Loghain is useless compared to Alistair in terms of stats simply because you pretty much build him it makes no sense to sacrifice my most powerful tank for a weaker character.

Following that logic, this "strong moral code" includes the very real possibility of losing Ferelden because you didn't have a fourth Warden over personal vengeance.

Alistair leaves he makes it quite clear he won't work with Loghain before you recrueit him so  no you aren't gaining a fourth Warden just a replacement for Alistair.So I fail to see how making Loghain a Warden somehow makes a difference when you still have the same number you started with by that logic Anora killing Alistair might doom the country but Anora still exiles him because of fear of losing her power.

Do you know Alistair isn't coming back? Do you know that you won't be able to find him after the Landsmeet and talk some sense into him? I thought I was going to. I thought Alistair would be back at camp and I'd have to work out some drama between him and Loghain. So there is a possibility that you'll have a fourth Warden. Having an extra body is better than not having an extra body.

[Shadow Fox]

Monica21 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Funny my Wardens have strong moral codes and kill Loghain because of the crimes he commited after Ostagar that it makes Alistair happy is a nice bonus.

And metagaming Loghain is useless compared to Alistair in terms of stats simply because you pretty much build him it makes no sense to sacrifice my most powerful tank for a weaker character.

Following that logic, this "strong moral code" includes the very real possibility of losing Ferelden because you didn't have a fourth Warden over personal vengeance.

Alistair leaves he makes it quite clear he won't work with Loghain before you recrueit him so  no you aren't gaining a fourth Warden just a replacement for Alistair.So I fail to see how making Loghain a Warden somehow makes a difference when you still have the same number you started with by that logic Anora killing Alistair might doom the country but Anora still exiles him because of fear of losing her power.

Do you know Alistair isn't coming back? Do you know that you won't be able to find him after the Landsmeet and talk some sense into him? I thought I was going to. I thought Alistair would be back at camp and I'd have to work out some drama between him and Loghain. So there is a possibility that you'll have a fourth Warden. Having an extra body is better than not having an extra body.

Considering he tells you atleast twice he isn't working with Loghain I'd take that as a strong hint plus it's moot Anora ethier executes or exiles him he ain't aint coming back.

[Shadow Fox]

Faerunner wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Now you're metagaming again. Almost no one knows that you're alive. Certainly no one, not even you, know that Fergus is alive. For all intents and purposes the Couslands are gone. And their popularity doesn't matter. You're not Bryce, not to mention that you're a Warden so your position as a Ferelden noble is debateable. And I think you mean the writers let you prevent your ally from getting his perceived justice.

No, I'm not metagaming on that one. Even before I knew how it ended (and to be honest, I didn't really care), I was not the least bit worried that Howe would get his because the Human Noble Origin constantly crams it down the player's throat that the Couslands are the single most well-liked, well-respected, well-loved, and well-off nobles in all of Fereldan. All you have to do is tell people your name and they act like Bryce was the Maker's Greatest Gift to Thedas since Andraste and treat you like the next Coming Of just because you're his kid. I figured all you had to do was tell other nobles and royals what happened to you and they would immediately take your side and restore the stolen lands and titles to the Cousland family's name (even if no one's there to reclaim it). The only reason you don't get revenge or recompense for a year is because of Loghain's stunt, but again: once he's gone, you're gold.

On the bolded: Before the argument spiralled out of control, I was just commenting that I found it unbalanced that Alistair and Cousland go through the most similar emotional ordeal in the game (involving betrayal and slaughter of the people they love most thanks to a trusted ally), and yet on average I noticed way more HN Wardens belittle and deny Alistair than Wardens from other origins. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I always thought the Cousland of all people should understand what he's going through and why he wants revenge, and at least think twice before to denying his since they got theirs. I'll never make that mistake again.

I'd say that has more to do with most people playing humans but I see your point.