20 réponses à ce sujet

[Brahox]

Something that has always bugged me in most Bioware games is that NPC's in towns or cities do nothing. They just stand around with a random 3-4 things to say each time you pass them. I think it would add more life to DA3 any other games Bioware plans on making if NPC's walk about and just did stuff. It wouldn't have to be like TES games, but anything is better then the same NPC standing in the same spot for 100 plus hours of my game time.

[Little Princess Peach]

I know what you mean I still recall Denerim being so lifeless it's supposed to be the capital for peek sake and hardly anyone is around

[EricHVela]

This seems like a common request: A game that reacts to situations.

I would consider that NPCs that did more than just stand around gesturing or hawking their wares would appear like they're reacting to their own needs instead of just following a basic no-logic script. (Whether or not they are really following a straight-forward script is immaterial if they don't [i]appear/i] to be doing that. Often, presentation is more important than precise measurements in regards to entertainment -- and that gives people something to joke about on YouTube when something doesn't add-up.)

[thats1evildude]

Keep in mind that this is not a sandbox game. NPCs in a sandbox game must respond when the PC smashes a bottle in their face or pulls down their pants. As such, they need to feel somewhat "alive" in that they have routines and don't seem to be just standing in place.

The non-plot relevant NPCs in Dragon Age are just background scenery. They're just there to make the town feel slightly less empty as you run around completing whatever quest you're on. In addition, your companions converse with each other as you stroll around.

If I had to choose between watching NPCs go to market and pick up milk or having, say, companion banters, I'd pick up latter.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:23 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

"But it can't be done! This takes too much time and costs too many resources and I would rather Bioware focus on what matters!"

Well this kinda does matter as it builds immersion. Asides from that previous Bioware games actually did have towns that felt alive. Does anyone remember Neverwinter Nights? You actually had guards patrolling the streets and some NPC's walking around. Meanwhile you saw people actually getting drunk in the taverns. Even Baldur's Gate featured towns where people walked around. Yes there were some static NPC's in both NWN and Baldur's Gate but there were quite a few that moved around and did additional things too which brought the villages/towns/cities to life.

Meanwhile if a game like The Witcher 2 could feature advanced NPC scripting then Dragon Age 3 should at least give NPC's more life. Even if it's just some NPC's going around and looking at market stalls while guards walk past patrolling the city, that would still give life to the city. Include a few random events and you'll get a city which feels alive.

thats1evildude wrote...

Keep in mind that this is not a sandbox game. NPCs in a sandbox game must respond when the PC smashes a bottle in their face or pulls down their pants. As such, they need to feel somewhat "alive" in that they have routines and don't seem to be just standing in place.

The non-plot relevant NPCs in Dragon Age are just background scenery. They're just there to make the town feel slightly less empty as you run around completing whatever quest you're on.

 

Yeah and re-used scenery doesn't matter so long as the scenery in use features new content. I mean re-used level design is just background scenery right? It's irrelevant.



Small details help thats1evildude. Dragon Age is supposed to be an RPG series that is meant to immerse the player. How am I to be immersed when everyone in a town has been standing around in the same spot for 8 years? How would that inspire me to become immersed within the game?

No one is asking for 24/7 schedules and if Bioware is using the day and night trigger from DA2 then that's probably already put a 24/7 schedule system out of the question but scripting NPC's to walk around a bit and maybe perform additional actions would help add to the immersion.

This was a problem in Origins as well but at least Origins didn't re-use textures for hubs/towns and villages.

Now in Neverwinter Nights (a 10 year old game made by Bioware) featured NPC's who walked around then Dragon Age 3 should feature such NPC's. Period.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[thats1evildude]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Yeah and re-used scenery doesn't matter so long as the scenery in use features new content. I mean re-used level design is just background scenery right? It's irrelevant.

That's different. Recycled environments does far more damage to the joy derived from exploration than it does to immersion.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Small details help thats1evildude. Dragon Age is supposed to be an RPG series that is meant to immerse the player. How am I to be immersed when everyone in a town has been standing around in the same spot for 8 years? How would that inspire me to become immersed within the game?

I don't have an issue with it. NPCs don't stop having a life of their own when I'm not observing them; just because they happen to be in the same place at whatever particular time of day I pass by, I don't assume that they always stay in the same spot.

If small details are so important, then you could argue that the PC should have to eat, sleep and go to the bathroom regularly, because otherwise the PC seems like some weird automaton with no bodily functions. But we don't include those things in video games because they're tedious and often annoying.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Now in Neverwinter Nights (a 10 year old game made by Bioware) featured NPC's who walked around then Dragon Age 3 should feature such NPC's. Period.

Fable also has NPCs that wander around and react whenever you dance around whistling or fart in their face. But I didn't feel any more immersed in Fable than I did in Dragon Age. I never thought "Wow! This world seems so detailed and alive! I sure am being immersed in this fantasy environment!" Rather, my reaction was "Why are these people so impressed with sock puppets?"

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:58 .

[EricHVela]

In Fable, the NPCs all reacted the same way to direct interaction and such interaction was virtually required. It reduced the level of immersion I think than if they just simply went to the vendors and complained about the selection of goods and prices.

Background noise is background noise, but you notice it when it's gone.

[Fiacre]

Fable NPCs did go to vendors and complained about/asked for stuff. I mean, as much as I love it, I wouldn't say Fable has the most immeresive game world ever... But Bowwerstone defintely felt more "alive" than Denerim. Kirkwall was already a bit better, but this is certainly a detail that I'd like to see in DA3.

(Also, Fable's NPCs -- at least in 2 -- didn't always react to everything you did the same way.)

[Mr Fixit]

thats1evildude wrote...

If small details are so important, then you could argue that the PC should have to eat, sleep and go to the bathroom regularly, because otherwise the PC seems like some weird automaton with no bodily functions. But we don't include those things in video games because they're tedious and often annoying.

Don't let Sylvius read this unless you want him to barge in screaming "EXCLUDED MIDDLE FALLACY!!!"

In all seriousness, your argument is pretty disingenuous and you know it. Lifeless bystanders and a lifeless city are a big deal in an RPG. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 26 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

thats1evildude wrote...
That's different. Recycled environments does far more damage to the joy derived from exploration than it does to immersion.

Damage to immersion still is a negative impact.

thats1evildude wrote... 
I don't have an issue with it. NPCs don't stop having a life of their own when I'm not observing them; just because they happen to be in the same place at whatever particular time of day I pass by, I don't assume that they always stay in the same spot.

Well they are. They're always in the same spot. You can imagine otherwise all you'd like but that just means you're ignoring the problem. One can take that mentality to other flaws but it doesn't help.

thats1evildude wrote... 
If small details are so important, then you could argue that the PC should have to eat, sleep and go to the bathroom regularly, because otherwise the PC seems like some weird automaton with no bodily functions. But we don't include those things in video games because they're tedious and often annoying.

They wouldn't be small details then. Ever played Ultima or Arx Fatalis which had these features? They were part of gameplay and surviving. Having static NPC's who never move across the course of 8 years destroys immersion, realism and narrative really.

thats1evildude wrote... 
Fable also has NPCs that wander around and react whenever you dance around whistling or fart in their face. But I didn't feel any more immersed in Fable than I did in Dragon Age. I never thought "Wow! This world seems so detailed and alive! I sure am being immersed in this fantasy environment!" Rather, my reaction was "Why are these people so impressed with sock puppets?"

That was one of Fable's major features and it presenting NPC's as sim characters. What I'm referring to is simply a few NPC's walking around and maybe browsing a few market stalls. That's not major.

[rjshae]

On the other hand, it seems kind of odd to interact with a complete stranger and have them blurt out some random observation. Most of the time when you interact with a random stranger on the street it's to ask the time, ask for directions, or ask them if they have seen such and such a person. People usually respond either by ignoring you, telling you they don't know, or giving you a brief response. If that interaction happened enough times (with some randomized variations to avoid repetition), eventually a player would no longer bother and the problem is solved.

Modifié par rjshae, 26 septembre 2012 - 06:15 .

[thats1evildude]

Mr Fixit wrote...

Don't let Sylvius read this unless you want him to barge in screaming "EXCLUDED MIDDLE FALLACY!!!"

In all seriousness, your argument is pretty disingenuous and you know it.

No, I don't know it. My point is that there are always acceptable breaks from reality in video games; not only can a game not do everything, it probably shouldn't.

I don't care if the NPCs has regular schedules where they go to the market and wander off to ****** and such. They're still not people, and if you observed them long enough, you would find that they're still just automatons.

If the NPC can amuse me with background chatter or throw out an interesting piece of information as I'm wandering by, that's excellent. Otherwise, they just need to stay out of my goddamn way.

[Maverick827]

Am I the only one who is consistently unimpressed with games that tout "dynamic NPC behavior?" Dynamic always seems to mean "they do two or three things under two or three circumstances."

[Mr Fixit]

thats1evildude wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

Don't let Sylvius read this unless you want him to barge in screaming "EXCLUDED MIDDLE FALLACY!!!"

In all seriousness, your argument is pretty disingenuous and you know it.

No, I don't know it. My point is that there are always acceptable breaks from reality in video games; not only can a game not do everything, it probably shouldn't.

I am not talking about 'acceptable breaks from reality'. That's on each gamer to decide for himself.

I was talking about you equating reactive or at least livelier bystanders and other city folk with PC taking a bath, concluding that both must be tedious and better left out. Notwithstanding the fact that the former applies to NPCs and the latter to PCs, the whole analogy is just wrong.

[Eternal Phoenix]

thats1evildude wrote...

No, I don't know it. My point is that there are always acceptable breaks from reality in video games; not only can a game not do everything, it probably shouldn't.

I don't care if the NPCs has regular schedules where they go to the market and wander off to ****** and such. They're still not people, and if you observed them long enough, you would find that they're still just automatons.

If the NPC can amuse me with background chatter or throw out an interesting piece of information as I'm wandering by, that's excellent. Otherwise, they just need to stay out of my goddamn way.

Well as rjhshae said; having NPC's blurt out random information and advice as you past by is unrealistic and would be scripted as well clearly showing that they are pure automatons.

If I had to choose between wandering NPC's and NPC's who spurt out random (and often useless) information then I would choose the former and not the later. Dragon Age has been streamlined enough. It doesn't need random NPC's telling you how to complete a quest when it has quest-markers.

Yes there are acceptable breaks from reality in video games but it's 2012 and so much is achievable in video games thanks to the technology. Static NPC's should no longer be tolerated especially by a developer who has developed games in the past which had moving NPC's.

[Atakuma]

Elton John is dead wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

No, I don't know it. My point is that there are always acceptable breaks from reality in video games; not only can a game not do everything, it probably shouldn't.

I don't care if the NPCs has regular schedules where they go to the market and wander off to ****** and such. They're still not people, and if you observed them long enough, you would find that they're still just automatons.

If the NPC can amuse me with background chatter or throw out an interesting piece of information as I'm wandering by, that's excellent. Otherwise, they just need to stay out of my goddamn way.

Well as rjhshae said; having NPC's blurt out random information and advice as you past by is unrealistic and would be scripted as well clearly showing that they are pure automatons.

If I had to choose between wandering NPC's and NPC's who spurt out random (and often useless) information then I would choose the former and not the later. Dragon Age has been streamlined enough. It doesn't need random NPC's telling you how to complete a quest when it has quest-markers.

Yes there are acceptable breaks from reality in video games but it's 2012 and so much is achievable in video games thanks to the technology. Static NPC's should no longer be tolerated especially by a developer who has developed games in the past which had moving NPC's.

DA2 had moving NPCs

[marshalleck]

I like how the NPCs in The Witcher would run for cover and huddle in doorways whenever it would start raining.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Atakuma wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

No, I don't know it. My point is that there are always acceptable breaks from reality in video games; not only can a game not do everything, it probably shouldn't.

I don't care if the NPCs has regular schedules where they go to the market and wander off to ****** and such. They're still not people, and if you observed them long enough, you would find that they're still just automatons.

If the NPC can amuse me with background chatter or throw out an interesting piece of information as I'm wandering by, that's excellent. Otherwise, they just need to stay out of my goddamn way.

Well as rjhshae said; having NPC's blurt out random information and advice as you past by is unrealistic and would be scripted as well clearly showing that they are pure automatons.

If I had to choose between wandering NPC's and NPC's who spurt out random (and often useless) information then I would choose the former and not the later. Dragon Age has been streamlined enough. It doesn't need random NPC's telling you how to complete a quest when it has quest-markers.

Yes there are acceptable breaks from reality in video games but it's 2012 and so much is achievable in video games thanks to the technology. Static NPC's should no longer be tolerated especially by a developer who has developed games in the past which had moving NPC's.

DA2 had moving NPCs

Most were static. When I said "moving NPC's" I was referring to all where appropriate.

[EricHVela]

Fiacre wrote...

Fable NPCs did go to vendors and complained about/asked for stuff. I mean, as much as I love it, I wouldn't say Fable has the most immeresive game world ever... But Bowwerstone defintely felt more "alive" than Denerim. Kirkwall was already a bit better, but this is certainly a detail that I'd like to see in DA3.

(Also, Fable's NPCs -- at least in 2 -- didn't always react to everything you did the same way.)

I did specifically mention that it was the interaction that reduced the immersion. Without it, it likely would seem more like people doing their own thing than something you can interrupt and make do something specific regardless what the character was doing.