438 réponses à ce sujet

[Legenlorn]

Hmm... Well I think the lead writer for DA:I (correct me if I am wrong) had something like a conference that addressed Bizantura's statement about not seeing the actual numbers. He shows that there are both female and male groups playing games (think the % was about even) and also that the age groups are similar in % values. (above 30 i think was bigger than below 18 but not to sure about the age numbers) The video is somewhere out there.

I myself am rather divided between the non voiced Pc and a non paraphrased dialogue wheel.
Also, an idea of mine is to cancel all the text and just give the icons. That way at least we wont be disappointed by what the pc says because we won't even know his basic thought about the matter. We would just know that it would be a good/sarcastic/evil answer. (Ofc I'm joking here)

[Plaintiff]

Bizantura wrote...

I like the more flexability that a non voiced va gives. The fact that your va can be of any race ectc.. Yes you need more creativity in your head but that is fine by me. DAO in my eyes was a grand game.

DA2 well I had to refrain off throwing the box into the toilet alltogether. For me it is hard to believe it is made by the same team. DA2 was not written for the same audience as DAO but for a much younger audience.

I believe that the "targeted audience" is a problem since Bioware fused with EA. Bioware made games for adults. EA sees big sales figures tageted at a far younger audience. I think ME trilogy achieved a more balanced way to attract both younger and older players. It has still not occurred to the multinationals that 30 year olds and+++ play games too, let alone woman. There aim is still targeted at young testosterone fueled males.

Since when are voiced protagonists less mature than silent protagonists?

[Ziggeh]

Bizantura wrote...

I like the more flexability that a non voiced va gives. The fact that your va can be of any race ectc.. Yes you need more creativity in your head but that is fine by me. DAO in my eyes was a grand game.

I find it involves considerably less.

Incorporating the disperate and occasionally suprising results of the character wheel into a single character often involves a considerable amount of work, and by the end I'm left with a character with with far greater complexity than I would ever concucted on my own.

[Morty Smith]

I have great news. Just yesterday it was confirmed, that BW will implemend a feature that will allow you to silence the protagonist and the all surrounding cast.

The feature will be called "Master Volume Zero" or MVZ for short.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Kroitz wrote...

I have great news. Just yesterday it was confirmed, that BW will implemend a feature that will allow you to silence the protagonist and the all surrounding cast.

The feature will be called "Master Volume Zero" or MVZ for short.

Says the Master Chief. 

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

For example, I wouldn't let some creepy old man I've just met explain to the King of Ferelden how my family died, but the Silent PC doesn't let me do that. I also wouldn't let Anora or Alistair give a speech to my army as its commander, or at the very least I would insist on addressing them if I was forced. 

I've seen the italed done with a non-voiced PC a couple of times. But not for cinematic effect, which I presume is the point.

[Medhia Nox]

God made independent developers so I could have RPGs with silent protagonists still.

The only thing I'd ask Bioware is that they not tell me that it's just what I 'think' I'll enjoy. That's condescending.

I've played MANY games with it (silent protagonist) - and I KNOW I enjoy it.

If you want the protag voiced - that's awesome - a lot of people love the feature, but just say: "This is how it's done." don't imply it's also "Because you don't know what you 'really' want."

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 juillet 2013 - 04:41 .

[Ziggeh]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If you want the protag voiced - that's awesome - a lot of people love the feature, but just say: "This is how it's done." don't imply it's also "Because you don't know what you 'really' want."

Do you mean Gaider's post about full text? Because that's not what he's saying, he's saying they did tests and found that people misunderstood with the same frequency as the paraphrase, because the lines were written with tonality in mind.

[AlanC9]

So full text wouldn't help unless they rewrote all of the PCs lines too, eh?

[CronoDragoon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The only thing I'd ask Bioware is that they not tell me that it's just what I 'think' I'll enjoy. That's condescending.

I've played MANY games with it (silent protagonist) - and I KNOW I enjoy it.

 

If you're talking about Gaider's posts in this thread, you're sort of proving his point. You know you enjoy silent protags, but what you would get is NOT a silent protag; it's a voiced protag on mute, which is not the same thing at all.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 08 juillet 2013 - 05:12 .

[Savber100]

In Exile wrote...

Savber100 wrote...
Yet no one has really complained about how in Skyrim, they can never hear their own character talk.  

Also you're saying that games like Skyrim or Fallout don't have near the amount of player-spoken dialogue in Origins? 

Why don't you think that the players who - in this thread - complained about a silent PC in DAO wouldn't (or aren't) complaining about a silent PC in those games?

Yet I point to the success of these games as proof that a silent protagonist does not hurt a game.

If you're playing a character that is it's own character like Adam Jensen, Lee Everett. and Geralt, then yeah I think it makes sense to have a voiced character.

But when you're embodying the character like The Warden, the Dragonborn, and The Courier, I find the voice off-putting as it isn't fully me.

This had led to problems in Bioware games like ME3 where the writers' desire to create a character with the player wanting to embody that character clashing on issues like autodialogue etc. 


Ultimately, I don't care too much but I just get annoyed when people complain a silent protagonist being emotionless when the whole point is that those character are you. When you see a dragon descending on you in Skyrim, you don't need a voice screaming out loud "OH BOOOY A DRAGON!" since you ARE the character as you scream towards the screen, charging that dragon. 

Modifié par Savber100, 08 juillet 2013 - 10:51 .

[DarthLaxian]

well - i would like this, with one exception:

i don't want him/her silent, if there is a cutscene - but i do not want that as an excuse to put in auto-dialogue

greetings LAX
ps: i would like to read the whole thing that is said, no paraphrasing (i hated that in DA2 when i would go: What did you just say? - I didn't want you to say it like that. - My god you are an insensitive ****** etc.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Twisted Path wrote...

I've always liked games with dialogue trees that include "[Say nothing.]" or just "[Nod]" and wish it was done more. It helps you create a stoic sort of character.

Those stoic or on-responsive options would be a wonderful addition to a voiced protagonist game.  I would very much like to see those.

[Realmzmaster]

I am not the Dragonborn, the Courier, Bhaalspawn or Warden and they are not me. They are simply characters I create and roleplay. If they are going to be truly mine then I get to create the backstory. I get to create the origin. None of these characters allow me that flexibility. Their backstory and origin are already set.

I can just as easily step into the role of Hawke or Geralt. I do not see my characters as extensions of myself. Others may do that. More power to them. My PCs are simply personalities that I roleplay which may or may not mirror my own.
So voice protagonists do not bother me. Also it has nothing to do with lack of imagination since I have been roleplaying more than 40 years. That is a false statement that many seem to throw out. I do not remember any of my tabletop encounters being silent.
The intent of early crpgs was to emulate the tabletop experience as best as possible. The one point that technology held back that endeavor was in terms of speech.
If developers are not going to voice the PC I see no reason to voice the other characters. I am sure my imagination can handle imagining how all the characters sound. I have nothing against silent protagonists, but I have heard my Hawkes speak in my ears not just my mind. I find that very refreshing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

My PCs are simply personalities that I roleplay which may or may not mirror my own.

That's what roleplaying is.

But with Hawke and Geralt you don't get to choose the personality you play.  You're stuck with whatever the writers hand you.

You still don't have total freedom with the silent protagonist, but you do have more freedom.

The intent of early crpgs was to emulate the tabletop experience as best as possible.

This should remain their primary objective.  And in a tabletop game, my character never acts in ways that surprise me.  Adding a feature that produces that outcome in a CRPG is counter-productive.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 09 juillet 2013 - 01:14 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

My PCs are simply personalities that I roleplay which may or may not mirror my own.

That's what roleplaying is.

But with Hawke and Geralt you don't get to choose the personality you play.  You're stuck with whatever the writers hand you.

You still don't have total freedom with the silent protagonist, but you do have more freedom.

The intent of early crpgs was to emulate the tabletop experience as best as possible.

This should remain their primary objective.  And in a tabletop game, my character never acts in ways that surprise me.  Adding a feature that produces that outcome in a CRPG is counter-productive.

My tabletop experiences are also not silent. You will  note that I am able to step into a role and play that personality. It all depends on what you are looking for from the game. I am flexible. I can roleplay either way.

[Gotholhorakh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The intent of early crpgs was to emulate the tabletop experience as best as possible.

This should remain their primary objective.  And in a tabletop game, my character never acts in ways that surprise me.  Adding a feature that produces that outcome in a CRPG is counter-productive.

I think this (or even the idea of role playing itself), is the subject of significant divergence from the rationale of the older games and much of the community.

I don't think role playing is a priority at all now, or any relationship with tabletop RPGs. It seems to be climbing down from that peak.

If anything, I'd say newer BW rationale seems to be a closer cousin of branching path novels, than role playing games.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 juillet 2013 - 02:14 .

[AlanC9]

I'm not at all sure it makes sense anymore to speak of CRPGs as trying to emulate tabletop. The two genres diverged back in the 80s and went in different directions.

As for the specific topic, I have't found myself any more or less surprised by my PC's actions with voiced protagonist than with unvoiced.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 juillet 2013 - 06:08 .

[Realmzmaster]

As i stated the purpose of earlier crpgs was to emulate the tabletop experience. The point is that many gamers this generation are not into the p n p format. The tabletop experience does not have as much or any meaning to them.
This generation also tends to play a lot of different games from FPS to JCRPG to Simulations to Puzzles. The blending of genres in games is send as a welcomed addition.

The FPS have rpg aspects and the cprgs have action aspects. Some games have puzzles thrown in the mix.
I could be wrong but I suspect that gamers of this generation are expecting more from their games and incorporating other elements from different genres gives them that.

This generation also expects technology to push the envelope of what games can do in terms of graphics, sound (which can include voice), story and other aspects of gameplay.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 09 juillet 2013 - 05:31 .

[Wozearly]

Realmzmaster wrote...

As i stated the purpose of earlier crpgs was to emulate the tabletop experience. The point is that many gamers this generation are not into the p n p format. The tabletop experience does not have as much or any meaning to them...

This generation also expects technology to push the envelope of what games can do in terms of graphics, sound (which can include voice), story and other aspects of gameplay.

I'm not sure many gamers (by volume) of the past generation were into the p&p format either.

To be honest, the main development of many CRPGs on that aspect has been to move a greater proportion of the calculations into the 'black box' of the game rather than visibly displaying more of a dice-roll effect, of simplifying the number of variables going on and, generally, creating far greater reliability in response to people's actions (e.g. removing "critical failure" type outcomes, and introducing more threshold-pass  than difficulty-roll mechanics).

That's also been echoed by tabletop games that don't have roleplaying as a primary feature - for example, in ye olden days Warhammer 40K Orks had weapons that could explode in the users' faces on critical failures. That no longer exists in newer rulebooks.

The value of having to deal with unexpected problems and the risk of failure was always far more useful in p&p RPGs that were under gamesmaster direction, could evolve and react, and where players were exploring their characters as well as the storyline...in the video game environment, random failures has tended to mean you lose the encounter and have to reload. Which adds more frustration than value.

There are honourable exceptions. A different Warhammer franchise, Blood Bowl, shamelessly kept all of its tabletop and dice-roll mechanics when moving to the PC. But in that game, unexpected failures and risk/luck management are absolutely crucial to why its such good fun. They are literally built into EVERY aspect of the game. The Elder Scrolls, Fallout and Jagged Alliance are all still going strong on random mechanics that bear more than a passing resemblance to the old p&p style - even though, yes, they have also undergone their own simplifications over time.

Given the popularity of some of those franchises, I wouldn't be rushing to declare the underlying model dead just yet.


On your second point, the push to greater use of technology has always been there, IMO. Mute PCs still exist across the board in all genres, and voiced PCs have been used in a number of games. I'm not convinced that the two are inextricably connected - different developers choose to use them, or not use them, depending on what works best for them with the game they're making. "The Mute" didn't kill-off interest in GTA3. The voice-acted CJ didn't cause a massive revolt in GTA4.

The main reason its controversial in Bioware RPGs is because historically a lot of influence over the character, their choices and their personality has been passed directly to players. The introduction of a fixed voice and tone of responses has reduced that, and not all players see the resultant interference / erosion of player influence as a positive development. Those who don't rate it that highly are much more likely to see the clear benefits of the voiced PC and feel slightly baffled as to why a large and apparently luddite section of the fanbase is pushing for a technological step back. :innocent:

Modifié par Wozearly, 09 juillet 2013 - 07:56 .

[Tenshi]

this thread is stupid, turn off speakers if you want to mute PC lol.

[xkg]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

this thread is stupid, turn off speakers if you want to mute PC lol.

By PC he meant the Player Character not the Personal Computer but ...

If you think that turning off the speakers will mute ONLY the Player Character, well... I am not going to point who is stupid here.

In case you can't figure it out

[AlanC9]

Wozearly wrote...
The main reason its controversial in Bioware RPGs is because historically a lot of influence over the character, their choices and their personality has been passed directly to players. The introduction of a fixed voice and tone of responses has reduced that, and not all players see the resultant interference / erosion of player influence as a positive development. Those who don't rate it that highly are much more likely to see the clear benefits of the voiced PC and feel slightly baffled as to why a large and apparently luddite section of the fanbase is pushing for a technological step back.

I'm not sure Bio believes the italed to be true. What they've said about the DA2 voiced dialogue is that it's got the same choices the players have ever had; the tone is now explicit, but the NPCs always reacted to an implicit tone that the writers intended, so in a sense it's the silent PC that isn't behaving the way the player expects.

[giveamanafish...]

xkg wrote...

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

this thread is stupid, turn off speakers if you want to mute PC lol.

By PC he meant the Player Character not the Personal Computer but ...

If you think that turning off the speakers will mute ONLY the Player Character, well... I am not going to point who is stupid here.

In case you can't figure it out

It is kind of stupid to think that Bioware will pay significant ammounts of money to a voice actor to be the lead character (the most used) and then allow players an in-game option to turn off thatvoice. You are also incorrect in that these games allow subtitles so by turning down the volume (or by being hearing impaired) you can still follow the conversation and choose your responses.

Wozearly wrote:
The introduction of a fixed voice and tone of responses has reduced that, and not all players see the resultant interference / erosion of player influence as a positive development. Those who don't rate it that highly are much more likely to see the clear benefits of the voiced PC and feel slightly baffled as to why a large and apparently luddite section of the fanbase is pushing for a technological step back.

This would make more sense if you actually were able to type in a response of your own chosing. The player influence you are talking about still just involves a choice of pre-set reponses whehter the PC is voiced or not. What I think you mean is a voiced protagonist takes away your ability to imagine a tone or atitude in the PC response. But again you can just turn down the volume, turn on subtitles.

Modifié par ismoketoomuch, 10 juillet 2013 - 04:07 .

[giveamanafish...]

So playing thru Origins after a long time away, I have to say I wish that game had an option to turn off just the party voices. The party chatter is alright and you can learn to ignore it after it gets too repetitive but the voice responses you get when you pause and cycle thru the party is just mind-numbingly annoying. I suppose it is a nice bit of metastory telling or what not to have the party respond as if you the player were talking to them as you select them but it really really gets stale. Nostalgia is a funny thing.