46 réponses à ce sujet

[grregg]

In case the title is mystifying, here's an article that gives some explanation and examples. Wikipedia has a blurb on it too.

Anyway, one of the biggest pet peeves that I had with DA2 was that the gameplay was quite disjoint from the narrative. An often seen complaint was that a mage (Hawke, his sister, Merrill, Anders, etc) was able to parade up and down Kirkwall, fireball things to his/her heart's content and somehow the oppressive templar regime failed to notice. It's a classic example of the dissonance since the gameplay allowed the players to fully employ magic, while the story tried to convince us that such a display is a death sentence. As the two possibilities are mutually exclusive, one has to lose, and it is usually the story that suffers since human minds tend to believe experience (gameplay) more than words (story).

DA2 unfortunately provides more examples, but what I would be curious to know is whether DA3 will follow the same line. In other words, is the disconnect between the story and the gameplay something that BioWare considers a problem at all?

[Eternal Phoenix]

I hope not.

Bioware said DA2 was going to have a plot for the mage character involving this (where they somehow avoid the templars) but it was scrapped due to rushed development (although they said it in different words).

[Overlord_Mephist]

I think you're looking too hard at it. My warden made many trips back and forth from denerim and redcliffe yet the blight waited for me to finish gathering allies before spreading. Though Varric managed to convince some templars my mage Hawke was an enchanter from another circle so you could always reason it that way as well.

[EricHVela]

Making a game is an odd collaborative thing. You have people making gameplay mechanics, people making stories and people trying to set up the game so players can experience the various gameplay mechanics somewhere in the stories.

They're not totally independent, of course. People making gameplay mechanics might ask if there's a way to work in some feature into the story, and people making stories might ask if there's a way to make a game mechanic for it. Sometimes, it just comes down to "Whoops! This gameplay mechanic and story are in conflict with each other. Doh!"

[grregg]

Sure, most games have at least some degree of ludonarrative dissonance. And to boot, different people are differently sensitive to it. Still, for me it is a problem when the main plot has a serious disconnect with the gameplay.

Having said that, there are many companies that do not consider it a problem at all. So BioWare can reasonably say that no, it is not a concern, and I should go and buy a stronger rope to suspend my disbelief with.

It seems to me though that such disconnects were more acceptable in the past, when it was easy to disregard gameplay consisting of 32 pixels attacking another 32 pixels. These days when the gameplay looks pretty realistic, it is harder and harder for me to accept that this reality is somehow governed by different laws then a reality I saw 30 seconds ago in a cutscene.

Modifié par grregg, 26 septembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Maria Caliban]

grregg wrote...

In other words, is the disconnect between the story and the gameplay something that BioWare considers a problem at all?

There will be fewer of them but they'll still exist.

[RazorrX]

Originally they were going to have lyrium addiction in the game as far back as origins, but it got cut.

I hope they do a better job making da3 actually mesh more with the lore, or they should just change the lore and give up.

[TJPags]

DA2 had a tremedous number of problems. This was only one of them.

Yes, it was absurd that a mage Hawke could run around Kirkwall with no trouble - I know a lot of people have come up with reasons for it, but it's odd that the game is silent on that issue - but if that was the ONLY issue, I wouldn't dislike the game so much.

[Holy Outlaw]

And here I thought ludonarrative dissonance is the name for what happens in my brain when really big made up terms are substituted for simpler and clearer ones.

Just kidding. I think I agree with you. As in, I hope the story's involving and that the gameplay complements it. I think in my komunaty colege we just say, "I hope it's good."

[Plaintiff]

I don't find it jarring at all that MageHawke and friends go unnoticed for years. The Kirkwall templars are clearly incompetent.

[Maria Caliban]

Holy Outlaw wrote...

And here I thought ludonarrative dissonance is the name for what happens in my brain when really big made up terms are substituted for simpler and clearer ones.

No, it means "I will now pretend that gameplay mechanics and narrative themes in BioShock are in conflict when all available data suggests this is not the case."

[Mr.House]

Gameplay has always contradicted lore in Bioware games since Mass Effect.

[Lithuasil]

Overlord_Mephist wrote...

I think you're looking too hard at it. My warden made many trips back and forth from denerim and redcliffe yet the blight waited for me to finish gathering allies before spreading. Though Varric managed to convince some templars my mage Hawke was an enchanter from another circle so you could always reason it that way as well.

The blight going on a collective vacation in Lothering for two month was just as stupid - and it's really not hard fixing this stuff (Though being an inquisitor might be a decent excuse, I still want people reacting to whether I'm a mage or mundane),

[Maria Caliban]

Mr.House wrote...

Gameplay has always contradicted lore in Bioware games since Mass Effect.

In Baldur's Gate, you can play a 200-year-old elf who was raised from infancy by a 90-year-old human.

Hmm, not gameplay. Okay, after your foster father dies, why can't you resurrect him? We learn that the monks of Candlekeep buried him, so his body was available. Why not do what we do with our companions and just tote his corpse to a temple?

[grregg]

Mr.House wrote...

Gameplay has always contradicted lore in Bioware games since Mass Effect.

As Maria said, the conflicts between gameplay and story/lore existed since time immemorial. A good place to look for them in BioWare games are various escape sequences. The story/dialogue scream "Run! Run for your life! Faster, or we're all gonna die!" while the gameplay says "Relax, check all the containers, make sure you kill everyone and everything, take a nap for 8 hours if you want." The escape from Irenicus' dungeon and the Leviathan section of KotOR spring to mind here.

[AlanC9]

grregg wrote...
An often seen complaint was that a mage (Hawke, his sister, Merrill, Anders, etc) was able to parade up and down Kirkwall, fireball things to his/her heart's content and somehow the oppressive templar regime failed to notice. 

I guess after I got through DA:O this didn't bug me too much. Nobody notices Morrigan either.

As for the article, the writer ignores the third option; simply accept the dissonance and live with it.

Edit: actually, he does kind of imply the option.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[AlanC9]

grregg wrote...

The story/dialogue scream "Run! Run for your life! Faster, or we're all gonna die!" while the gameplay says "Relax, check all the containers, make sure you kill everyone and everything, take a nap for 8 hours if you want." The escape from Irenicus' dungeon and the Leviathan section of KotOR spring to mind here.

Not to mention ME1's main plot (which is structurally identical to KotOR and DA:O's, isn't it?). ME2 and ME3 do better with the problem, since in ME2 you can't get at the Collectors until certain events happen, and in ME3 the Crucible can't be constructed overnight no matter what Shepard does. ME3 does have the problem in some of the missions  -- notably Priority: The Citadel II, where you're trying to prevent an imminent assassination, except that you're also taking time to loot C-Sec HQ.

But how could ME1 have avoided this?  One way would be to abolish the mission/assignment distinction -- some missions get you closer to Saren, others don't. Another would be to go more linear. A third would be to not do a "race against time" at all -- in which case I don't know how you'd organize the plot.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[ElitePinecone]

grregg wrote...

In case the title is mystifying, here's an article that gives some explanation and examples. Wikipedia has a blurb on it too.

Anyway, one of the biggest pet peeves that I had with DA2 was that the gameplay was quite disjoint from the narrative. An often seen complaint was that a mage (Hawke, his sister, Merrill, Anders, etc) was able to parade up and down Kirkwall, fireball things to his/her heart's content and somehow the oppressive templar regime failed to notice. It's a classic example of the dissonance since the gameplay allowed the players to fully employ magic, while the story tried to convince us that such a display is a death sentence. As the two possibilities are mutually exclusive, one has to lose, and it is usually the story that suffers since human minds tend to believe experience (gameplay) more than words (story).

DA2 unfortunately provides more examples, but what I would be curious to know is whether DA3 will follow the same line. In other words, is the disconnect between the story and the gameplay something that BioWare considers a problem at all?

It's definitely something that has come up at conventions and online quite a lot - the player's use of blood magic has been mentioned also.

David Gaider did say that they're considering adjusting the specialisation system so that it has its own plot elements and is more integrated into the world, but we don't really know what that means yet. I did get the impression that they're certainly aware of the criticism over mages walking around unnoticed and the seemingly relaxed attitude Kirkwall has to people flinging fireballs everywhere.

I'm not sure Bioware especially considers ludonarrative dissonance a *problem*, but some of the more egregious examples have definitely been brought up a lot. The small bits of information we do have about DA3 suggest the mage issue won't really be prevalent again, I think it has more to do with how the plot frames the protagonist in terms of power relations (even mage Hawke's magic was eventually overlooked because of their usefulness to the city, but initially it was jarring because nobody commented on it). 

[Aulis Vaara]

Or you can just call it gameplay and story segregation like everybody else.

That said, you're always going to have some gameplay and story segregation, and that's fine, because it keeps the game fun to play and you don't have to rush through it (which a realistic passing of time would do). That said, the reason the Dragon Age 2 case is so jarring, is because the plot revolves around Templars finding and abusing mages. Yet apparently they suck at this, which makes you question why there's even a problem at all...

[Wulfram]

The problem in DA2 was that the dissonance was directly connected to the main theme of the game. If the focus had been on the Qunari rather than the Mage/Templar stuff, it would have been a lot easier to accept the handwaves about the player being a mage.

I think most RPG players are used to the idea that there's no such thing as urgent, and that the main quest is the last thing you should do. To the extent that going too far to avert the issue might be more jarring than leaving them - if stopping to loot everything resulted in the princess getting eaten by the dragon, it would seem almost unfair after all the times when you arrive just in time or just too late no matter what you do. But I do think some things can be done to mitigate the dissonance .

I've always advocated including a period in the story when the PC is not under time pressure and can therefore do the side quests without it seeming silly. Sticking in urgent Main Quest after urgent Main Quest with no respite forces the player to metagame if they're not to miss half the game.

If there's supposed to be a really major rush on storywise, then the designers shouldn't scatter loot about the level. That way there's no reward for dawdling and the player will likely head through with some alacrity.

[Plaintiff]

^

I support the idea of some story outcomes being affected if the player fails to meet a certain requirement in time. Deus Ex: HR managed this a couple times that I know of, without explicitly labelling the instances as such (you don't see a timer on the screen or anything). I was surprised at first, but on reflection, they worked really well.

But urgency shouldn't be constant. It only works well if there are 'rest periods' for contrast. Otherwise, the experience is just tiring

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 septembre 2012 - 11:09 .

[Reznore57]

There's tons of problem when you play a mage ,...Templars don't notice you ( even with mage robe , staff and doing magic in front of them) ,I just imagine my pc doesn't do that and pretend to be a rogue.

Then there's the qunari , being a mage hawke and confronting the Arishok is ...hm...special.
I don't know how he can't be aware hawke is a mage , so first time i played ,I was like "ok one day he's gonna find out , blow a fuse , and kill me on spot "
Qunari are paranoid about magic , they act like it's a really dangerous virus.
But not with mage Hawke .

It's not a deal breaker for me , but the qunari one tends to annoy me a bit .

If i remember well , the question already have been asked about Sten and a mage warden .
And one writer (can't rememver who , sorry ) said Sten saw mage warden like some kind of unicorn ,a mythical creature more than a mage .

I think the Arishok in DA2 had a thing for unicorns too.

The truth is playing a mage would require tons of special content to fit the story , like the possibility to be Kirkwall viscount for a mage...I don't think it's possible without causing an Exalted March .

[NRieh]

Originally they were going to have lyrium addiction in the game as far back as origins, but it got cut.

Oooh.... Ser Cull Temlpar companion suffering from cold turkey? How evil!....Can we has it, please? <-)  

As for game mechanical inconsistencys - those have always been, and very likely - will be (like Saren waiting for Shepard to find all the asari writings, Blight waiting for Warden to finish her sidequests etc). I think those are more or less inavitable. I only hate that, which is not really demanded by mechanics, but break all possible lores. Like ME3 using SR2 as a taxi-shuttle service. Or those which make no sense - like crates and chests along final run to Meridith.

That IS annoying for me, not fact that Blight can wait a little bit, and that I can dance with Anders in front of Cullen and Meridith. Because else I'd have critical failure right in chapter 1. And I understand that any extra content for mage would've demanded extra content for rest two specs (like may be rougue having extra deals with carta, and warrior - doing some merc job). Else - we'd have "prefered" char class that has more content than two other classes. Which does not sound great.

Modifié par Nrieh, 27 septembre 2012 - 12:01 .

[Montana]

TJPags wrote...

DA2 had a tremedous number of problems. This was only one of them.

Yes, it was absurd that a mage Hawke could run around Kirkwall with no trouble - I know a lot of people have come up with reasons for it, but it's odd that the game is silent on that issue - but if that was the ONLY issue, I wouldn't dislike the game so much.

I believe there is one whole line in the end of act 3 where Meredith admits to knowing Hawke is a mage (duh, he's only been throwing fireballs around Kirkwall for 7+ years, one of which right in front of a templar when first arriving).

[LinksOcarina]

Tony77A wrote...

TJPags wrote...

DA2 had a tremedous number of problems. This was only one of them.

Yes, it was absurd that a mage Hawke could run around Kirkwall with no trouble - I know a lot of people have come up with reasons for it, but it's odd that the game is silent on that issue - but if that was the ONLY issue, I wouldn't dislike the game so much.

I believe there is one whole line in the end of act 3 where Meredith admits to knowing Hawke is a mage (duh, he's only been throwing fireballs around Kirkwall for 7+ years, one of which right in front of a templar when first arriving).

I find this no more or less absurd than other games glossing over similar moments of design. As someone said above, Baldurs Gate had several moments where the plot kind of stopped things from making any logical sense. We also have Elder Scrolls too, the storylines often contradict lore set up by previous games just for the sake of a quest and epic item. 

To me, the above is nitpicking because we choose to. We can ignore it in some games because we like them, and trash it in others because we loathe them. Hell, Dragon Age II did do it better than most, the implications through dialouge and cut-scenes was the Varric was pretty much pulling a ton of strings to protect everyone. I guess if it was downright stated then maybe this would not be much of a problem, but I digress...

In the end, suspension of disbelief I guess can only go so far, but to call out one game for making design conceits is just not fair, when it happens in pretty much all games, as this article is basically saying. The truth of the matter though is that the full immersion will never happen, because the minute it does then it ceases to be a game.