22 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazy Jer]

I've played to the end of this game a few times and I have yet to do an ending where the Warden doesn't accept (or in the case of the female warden convince Al to accept) Morrigan's proposal.  Eventually I suppose I'll have to do an ending of that just so I can see what it's like, but try as I might I just can't think of a reason why you wouldn't.

First of all, no I'm not saying this because Morrigan's hot.  It doesn't hurt but it's not factoring into my thinking.  My thinking is that here you have a chance to kill the archedemon and no one has to die.  Neither you, Alistair, nor Loghain (not that I've been drunk enough while playing to let him live as yet) need to die.

The only factor that I can see effecting my decision is the idea that you really don't know how the new old god baby is going to grow up.  He could be Stewie Griffin level of evil, but he could go the exact opposite way as well.  What's more, Morrigan doesn't strike me as someone who would raise an evil baby deliberately.  She might push him towards neutraily, but I don't see her driving him towards evil either.

So if saying "no" to Morrigan was your first, or your instinctual choice, let me know your reasoning behind it.  Kinda curious to see other people's POV.

[sylvanaerie]

It's a very complex question which boils down to "Do you believe Morrigan?". To an extent I do. I certainly believe she cares about my warden (as a friend or lover) and doesn't want him/her to die. She's very secretive about it though, not telling you what her intentions are. I get the feeling she wouldn't tell you about the child unless she had to.

Mostly I choose it, because I don't like tragic endings (though I have made the choice on a Male Cousland to tell her go to hell just to see 3 different endings). In one, I had Loghain do the deed, because Roland was just evil that way--I think Loghain would much prefer sticking his head into live coals--just to see Loghain's scene in the Post Coronation room. I also just had Loghain do the chop chop when the time came to see his scene. And then had Roland do it to see Anora's eulogy (which was pretty nice considering she's the ice princess). This was a very larky playthrough, and one I managed to squeak in just before DA2 for the Drunkistair scene. Of the three I guess I consider the "Redemption" ending the closest to what I would have done on that particular warden, but he was nucking futs anyway and I didn't consider him even close to canon.

So...I guess my answer is...I just did it for the lulz...?

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[theskymoves]

My canon Warden refused Morrigan. She was a so-good-it-hurt F!Surana who actually convinced Alistair to do the deed, and then backed out at the last possible moment, unable to be a party to a blood magic ritual. (She poked the Archdemon herself, so Alistair didn't have to pay for her intransigence.) 

Modifié par theskymoves, 26 septembre 2012 - 11:04 .

[mousestalker]

My Tabris didn't trust her. Morrigan through out the game was expedient, rude and came across as having a hidden agenda. When Morrigan refused to act as a friend and discuss what exactly would follow from the ritual, then Kallian saw no reason to go speak with the man who had rejected her to sleep with Morrigan for a ritual that might or might not work, but would definitely serve an untrustworthy and selfish companion.

Kalli died and Morrigan went to Orlais.

[Fiacre]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Neither you, Alistair, nor Loghain (not that I've been drunk enough while playing to let him live as yet) need to die.

I didn't know I was drunk every time I played the Landsmeet <_<

And there could be a few reasons -- not trusting Morrigan, thinking that, no matter how well-intentioned she might be, nothing good can come out of preserving an Old God... Or even just wanting the other Grey Warden to die.

[Lazy Jer]

Fiacre wrote...
I didn't know I was drunk every time I played the Landsmeet <_<

And there could be a few reasons -- not trusting Morrigan, thinking that, no matter how well-intentioned she might be, nothing good can come out of preserving an Old God... Or even just wanting the other Grey Warden to die.

Ahh come one....this is Ferelden everyone is drunk.  It's the national sport.

But In all seriousness (or at least as close to all seriousness as I ever get, which on my best day is about 95%) I'm not sure if nothing good can come of preserving an old god baby.  Keep in mind that this kid is going to grow up with Morrigan, who, for all her survival-of-the-fitest attitude, still spent her entire life growing up in Ferelden.  How often is it that a supposedly old god gets an oppertunity to grow up seeing what basic Fereldens, and by extension Thedisians, go through.

In response to the other posts (which I'm too lazy to list) Lulz is my only reason so far to say no, not trusting Morrigan is, perhaps a logical reason given how cryptic she is, and if you're approaching it from a "so moral it hurts" attitude then yeah, it'd make sence to say "no".  Though, and this is perhaps a subject for a whole new thread, how pure of belief can one be when carrying around a taint for the rest of one's existence.

(side note:  It just occured to me, Alistair, for all his comic relief nature, is eventually going to die fighting darkspawn.  Alone and, perhaps, forgotten.  I'll bet this is why Grey Wardens listen to a lot of Morrisey and My Chemical Romance)

[Corker]

* Had an f!Warden who saw that Alistair was deeply, deeply uncomfortable with the proposition and refused to pressure him into it.

* Had a Brosca who felt the entire proposal sounded like a pressure-tactic sales pitch. Whenever someone tells you that you better buy this real genuine silverite dagger now, because he's got three other guys looking at it, he is not telling you this because he is looking out for your best interests.

* Had a Surana who refused on the grounds that this was Flemeth's plan. Sure, Morrigan thinks she's doing things her own way, but Flemeth was a very cunning old creature and possible a very powerful abomination of pride. The kind that could threaten the world. (Read the last paragraph of the codex)

* I frequently consider the sermons of Divine Renata I to be foreshadowing of the Dark Ritual choice, and I often prefer heroes who stand on the side of willpower in the face of temptation.

* A duty-bound character might consider it their job to destroy the Archdemon's essence, not just transmute it.

* A character might object to the blood magic.

* A Dalish might object to saving the soul of an Old God. You know, the same Old Gods that taught the Tevinter Imperium the blood magic they used to destroy Arlathan? Yeah, screw those Old Gods.

* The Warden might be seeking death

[theskymoves]

Corker wrote...

* Had an f!Warden who saw that Alistair was deeply, deeply uncomfortable with the proposition and refused to pressure him into it.

* Had a Brosca who felt the entire proposal sounded like a pressure-tactic sales pitch. Whenever someone tells you that you better buy this real genuine silverite dagger now, because he's got three other guys looking at it, he is not telling you this because he is looking out for your best interests.

* Had a Surana who refused on the grounds that this was Flemeth's plan. Sure, Morrigan thinks she's doing things her own way, but Flemeth was a very cunning old creature and possible a very powerful abomination of pride. The kind that could threaten the world. (Read the last paragraph of the codex)

* I frequently consider the sermons of Divine Renata I to be foreshadowing of the Dark Ritual choice, and I often prefer heroes who stand on the side of willpower in the face of temptation.

* A duty-bound character might consider it their job to destroy the Archdemon's essence, not just transmute it.

* A character might object to the blood magic.

* A Dalish might object to saving the soul of an Old God. You know, the same Old Gods that taught the Tevinter Imperium the blood magic they used to destroy Arlathan? Yeah, screw those Old Gods.

* The Warden might be seeking death

I'd also add that when rolepaying (or without meta-gaming), it is entirely possible (and very easy) to have Alistair refuse to participate in the ritual. And a female Warden doesn't have the option of doing the deed herself.

[Corker]

Ooo, or a Warden might want Loghain or Alistair to die. m!Cousland-marrying-Anora in particular might want to remove either as a threat to his throne (Loghain's influence with Anora, Alistair's blood). Or it might be personal.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That would involve the Warden gambling that Riordan doesn't live long enough to reach the archdemon (safe gamble even without metagaming) and that either Alistair or Loghain does. (Less than such, unless metagamed.) A Warden could do that, maybe even believably if you've roleplayed him/her as being reasonably genre-savvy up to that point, but it'd be pretty unrealistic.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Corker]

I don't think so. If it's realistic to accept Morrigan's deal either from love or fear, I could see someone turning it down out of spite. You're potentially risking the fate of the world for your own emotions either way, just now versus later.

[Lord_Dweedle]

Flemeth imo is not a pride demon, I still consider Flemeth to be the Kreia of the Dragon Age series.

I always do the ritual, but then again.. ive never really been put into the position where I would not do the ritual as my Male Human Warden always Romances Morrigan and my Female Human Warden never Romances anyone. Might start a game and try refusing her offer.. seems like a new way to play the game lol.

I dont think the old god baby.. is evil either.. the Darkspawn corruption is what corrupted it.. and its been proven not all Darkspawn are evil.

Modifié par Lord_Dweedle, 28 septembre 2012 - 01:23 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Corker wrote...

I don't think so. If it's realistic to accept Morrigan's deal either from love or fear, I could see someone turning it down out of spite. You're potentially risking the fate of the world for your own emotions either way, just now versus later.

No, I mean that it's unrealistic for that plan (which kind of depends on Riordan either dying or being unavailable, and absolutely depends on whichever backup Warden is available to stay that way) to work. A character who knows that his life works like something out of a story (and there are dialogue options that imply this in the Brecilian Forest quests) could know that it would anyway, but that's not the same as limiting yourself like this being smart in irl war. It's one thing to intend to destroy the archdemon and be willing to die to do it, but if you've got plans that depend on surviving the war, this might well destroy them.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 septembre 2012 - 11:19 .

[Fiacre]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Ahh come one....this is Ferelden everyone is drunk.  It's the national sport.

But In all seriousness (or at least as close to all seriousness as I ever get, which on my best day is about 95%) I'm not sure if nothing good can come of preserving an old god baby.  Keep in mind that this kid is going to grow up with Morrigan, who, for all her survival-of-the-fitest attitude, still spent her entire life growing up in Ferelden.  How often is it that a supposedly old god gets an oppertunity to grow up seeing what basic Fereldens, and by extension Thedisians, go through.

In response to the other posts (which I'm too lazy to list) Lulz is my only reason so far to say no, not trusting Morrigan is, perhaps a logical reason given how cryptic she is, and if you're approaching it from a "so moral it hurts" attitude then yeah, it'd make sence to say "no".  Though, and this is perhaps a subject for a whole new thread, how pure of belief can one be when carrying around a taint for the rest of one's existence.

(side note:  It just occured to me, Alistair, for all his comic relief nature, is eventually going to die fighting darkspawn.  Alone and, perhaps, forgotten.  I'll bet this is why Grey Wardens listen to a lot of Morrisey and My Chemical Romance)

I guess so.

And you don't need to tell me I always do the dark Ritual. If Morrigan isn't my LI, she's my bff and if she wants an OGB, she gets an OGB. Also, I have absolutely no interest in playing a Warden who'd consider dying and sacrificing his soul to off Archie an option when there are perfectly viable alternatives. And while I suggested wanting the other GW to die...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

No, I mean that it's
unrealistic for that plan (which kind of depends on Riordan either dying
or being unavailable, and absolutely depends on whichever backup Warden
is available to stay that way) to work. A character who knows that his
life works like something out of a story (and there are dialogue
options that imply this in the Brecilian Forest quests) could know that
it would anyway, but that's not the same as limiting yourself like this
being smart in irl war. It's one thing to intend to destroy the
archdemon and be willing to die to do it, but if you've got plans that
depend on surviving the war, this might well destroy them.

...this is what I usually think about that. Even if I did play a Waden who wasn't Morrigan's friend and trusted her absolutely, they'd likely be too worried that both Riordan and Loghain would be unavailable to kill the Archdemon when it came down to it and would do the DR as a precaution. ...Also, killing Archie yourself and living is better PR than sacrificing your companion.

[Wulfram]

Andrastean wardens aren't likely to be too keen on the Old Gods, and neither are Dalish. And a single life really isn't that big a price - a hell of a lot more than that are going to be lost to get the chance.

Also, that single life is much less of a price if it's Loghain. Dead Loghain goes on the positive side of the equation if you ask some of my Wardens.

[lambent templar]

Maybe the ogb is morrigans failsafe against flemmeth? Morrigan knows just how powerful flemmeth is and surely isn't niave enough to believe that she is truly dead after your pc pays her a visit.
Personally i havent completed the dark ritual yet as i like martyrdom but i am starting my surly good for gold dwarven playthrough so will do this time

[Monica21]

lambent templar wrote...

Maybe the ogb is morrigans failsafe against flemmeth? Morrigan knows just how powerful flemmeth is and surely isn't niave enough to believe that she is truly dead after your pc pays her a visit.
Personally i havent completed the dark ritual yet as i like martyrdom but i am starting my surly good for gold dwarven playthrough so will do this time

Since Flemeth is the one who taught Morrigan the ritual I don't think it's Morrigan's failsafe at all. If it's a failsafe, it's Flemeth's.

[lambent templar]

Monica21 wrote...

lambent templar wrote...

Maybe the ogb is morrigans failsafe against flemmeth? Morrigan knows just how powerful flemmeth is and surely isn't niave enough to believe that she is truly dead after your pc pays her a visit.
Personally i havent completed the dark ritual yet as i like martyrdom but i am starting my surly good for gold dwarven playthrough so will do this time

Since Flemeth is the one who taught Morrigan the ritual I don't think it's Morrigan's failsafe at all. If it's a failsafe, it's Flemeth's.

But maybe Morrigan is of the mind that should Flemmeth find and overwhelm her then she has a more suitable and powerful offering for her. 'Tis survival of the fittest and all that.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Lazy Jer wrote...

So if saying "no" to Morrigan was your first, or your instinctual choice, let me know your reasoning behind it.  Kinda curious to see other people's POV.

My first Warden said no.

Ultimately, the reasoning came down to the fact that she didn't trust Morrigan enough.

1. Morrigan had convinced her to kill Flemeth on her behalf. She claimed Flemeth intended to steal her body.
2. Later, Morrigan claims this Old God Baby was 'Flemeth's plan all along.'

So what was the rest of Flemeth's plan? What was the rest of Morrigan's plan?

Neither would say, and my Warden wanted no more part of it. Killing someone she wasn't sure she should have killed was enough.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hanz54321 wrote...

As for reasons: If I do not trust that Morrigan knows what she is doing and I percieve the OGB as a threat, I don't do it. There are so many examples of dark magic being used for good and causing pain and anguish, it's not much of a role playing step to say, "Morrigan, your intentions might be good, but I think this will blow up in your face. I'm not doing it.

Point taken, but it doesn't always happen. Every single Blight that has successfully been ended is a result of this not being a universal rule.

(On the other hand, dark magic does blow up enough that one might decide not to mess with the current system's success.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2012 - 12:48 .